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SoulBound Studios Letter in Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit: 'Changing Direction Following a Business R

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  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,902
    Kyleran said:
    kitarad said:
    Kyleran said:

    kitarad said:

    Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.



    What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

    Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

    Hindsight is 20/20.
    He should not have any problem showing where the money went then if he did nothing wrong.

    They vilified Brad McQuaid for what he did why the double standards. It's a simple thing show where the money went.
    It would seem that he can as per this excerpt from the full response letter. (Bold, underline emphasis was actually in the letter itself)

    ”Further, the money provided by backers, including the founder of Soulbound, to develop CoE has been properly spent on appropriate game development expenditures, as determined by an independent firm that conducted a forensic accounting of Soulbound’s expenditures.

    If true, pretty much all claims against Soulbound are null and void. 
    Where is that independent audit?

    If you do an independent audit you'll get the auditing company make a statement, using their own name, as to what they audited and what their findings were.
    Gdemami
     
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    Vrika said:
    Kyleran said:
    kitarad said:
    Kyleran said:

    kitarad said:

    Don't have to empathize with anyone if there was fraud here then there should be a case for it. I don't care about how stupid people were to give this asshole money what I want to see is him paying for what he did.



    What exactly did he do? He spent $8M of funds freely given trying to build a game ... and failed... which is not illegal.

    Now, if someone can prove he took the money and ran, fine, but I actually don't think this is the case, I do believe he earnestly tried but was ignorant of the fact he never really had a chance.

    Hindsight is 20/20.
    He should not have any problem showing where the money went then if he did nothing wrong.

    They vilified Brad McQuaid for what he did why the double standards. It's a simple thing show where the money went.
    It would seem that he can as per this excerpt from the full response letter. (Bold, underline emphasis was actually in the letter itself)

    ”Further, the money provided by backers, including the founder of Soulbound, to develop CoE has been properly spent on appropriate game development expenditures, as determined by an independent firm that conducted a forensic accounting of Soulbound’s expenditures.

    If true, pretty much all claims against Soulbound are null and void. 
    Where is that independent audit?

    If you do an independent audit you'll get the auditing company make a statement, using their own name, as to what they audited and what their findings were.
    As law firms rarely lie in legal filings odds are good they'll provide the audit to the court when the time comes.

    Might not ever become public knowledge however.
    [Deleted User]Mendel

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

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  • angerbeaverangerbeaver Member UncommonPosts: 1,266
    I thought kickstarter will refund people if the product isn't delivered. If the product is garbage that isn't their problem, but if it is not delivered at all, they refund the money.

    Or am I wrong about that?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    edited October 2020
    Not having the full text of what was submitted kinda defeats any potential attempt at inteligibly framing this one here.

    *shrug*

    Just sounds like more BS.
    Full text is available on the lawsuit Discord, both brought significant challenges to the filing requesting proof of malfeasance.

    On Soulbound's side they refer to the studio closure as a change in business model and state the game is still in development.

    They also point out there is no binding legal agreement on how long the studio has to deliver and game development is a long and uncertain process.

    Xsolla's position is they were simply a payment processor for donations to the game's development and likely will claim their money back guarantee isn't applicable in this situation.

    Their response tries to direct focus on other parts of their EULA which put the responsibility for funding refunds entirely on third parties like Soulbound.








    [Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,916
    They have got to be able to nail him for some kind of fraud or consumer law. 

    The game shown early on was all false advertising and none of it was what they actually had as evidenced by their own youtube channel and the initial video vs the parkour demo.

    He was trying to sell virtual goods 2 weeks before the shutdown where he fired his entire staff. Then walked it back saying he was still developing the game by himself. We all know this is just BS to try to avoid the actual shutdown and not delivering the product and legal action against him.

    I hope he sees prison time but at the very least they should pursue this to try and bankrupt him with legal fees. Walsh is a scumbag of the highest order who took 8 million dollars and delivered nothing.
     
    GdemamiKyleran

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    Did anyone actually think the initial response was going to be "Oh gosh!  We are so sorry, here is $8M back!"

    These responses are exactly what one would expect from an initial letter.
    [Deleted User]GdemamiWellspring

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    Nilden said:
    They have got to be able to nail him for some kind of fraud or consumer law. 

    The game shown early on was all false advertising and none of it was what they actually had as evidenced by their own youtube channel and the initial video vs the parkour demo.

    He was trying to sell virtual goods 2 weeks before the shutdown where he fired his entire staff. Then walked it back saying he was still developing the game by himself. We all know this is just BS to try to avoid the actual shutdown and not delivering the product and legal action against him.

    I hope he sees prison time but at the very least they should pursue this to try and bankrupt him with legal fees. Walsh is a scumbag of the highest order who took 8 million dollars and delivered nothing.
     
    People go to jail for breaking the law, not for failing to deliver on a business venture.

    Which is probably why you don't see any government entities involved here, strictly a civil matter over whether certain agreements, contracts and EULA provisions are enforceable, and if so, which ones.


    [Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    I thought kickstarter will refund people if the product isn't delivered. If the product is garbage that isn't their problem, but if it is not delivered at all, they refund the money.

    Or am I wrong about that?
    You are wrong. Once the project reaches it's funding goals all monies collected are turned over (minus any applicable fees) and Kickstarter walks away.

    Pretty sweet deal, at least for them anyways.

    [Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    Did anyone actually think the initial response was going to be "Oh gosh!  We are so sorry, here is $8M back!"

    These responses are exactly what one would expect from an initial letter.
    One of the more interesting things in Xsolla's response was their final one.

    Should any dispute exist between the plaintiff and Xsolla according to their EULA it must be resolved via arbitration via JAMS (whatever that is) so likely the complaint will never reach a court.

    People need to be very careful to read before just agreeing to all terms and conditions.


    [Deleted User]xion12121

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,916
    Kyleran said:
    Nilden said:
    They have got to be able to nail him for some kind of fraud or consumer law. 

    The game shown early on was all false advertising and none of it was what they actually had as evidenced by their own youtube channel and the initial video vs the parkour demo.

    He was trying to sell virtual goods 2 weeks before the shutdown where he fired his entire staff. Then walked it back saying he was still developing the game by himself. We all know this is just BS to try to avoid the actual shutdown and not delivering the product and legal action against him.

    I hope he sees prison time but at the very least they should pursue this to try and bankrupt him with legal fees. Walsh is a scumbag of the highest order who took 8 million dollars and delivered nothing.
     
    People go to jail for breaking the law, not for failing to deliver on a business venture.

    Which is probably why you don't see any government entities involved here, strictly a civil matter over whether certain agreements, contracts and EULA provisions are enforceable, and if so, which ones.


    He took 8 million dollars from the public and delivered a parkour demo that a college student could have made in a month. This isn't just a failed business venture these people got taken for a ride. 

    Maybe they can use the fact that he walked back the shutdown against him because that sure looks like wrongful deception to me. He isn't going to deliver anything.

    If someone started a crowd funded construction company dug a hole and nail two boards together and called that an attempt at a building they would be swindling the public. Which is fraud. Which is against the law.


    Gdemami

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

    Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/ 

  • xion12121xion12121 Member UncommonPosts: 199


    The thing I find interesting from the Soulbound letter, is how adamant they are that Caspian is still working on the game and that it will actually be completed as promised.

    In short: Soulbound is still operational, still developing CoE, and never actually shuttered. It would be helpful, therefore, if you could explain how your client(s) have been harmed by the decision to continue development of the game, rather than shutting it down. At present, it intends to complete the development of the game.

    In this regard, while Soulbound’s current financial situation required the company to terminate substantially all of their employees, the founder of Soulbound has, since the end of March, continued to work on CoE on an unpaid basis as his only work and plans to continue working on CoE until Soulbound is able to deliver CoE, with the elements promised to backers. Soulbound additionally is working with others on a temporary basis where the work is outside the scope of the founder’s skillset.

    Do they really expect us to believe that Caspian is now going to complete the game as promised, by himself?!

    This defense makes me wonder... if Soulbound was truthful about no longer being operational would they backers have a legit claim?



    As I have stated since this whole fiasco began this was the outcome. Xscolla claims it's a third party and has no legal authority over Soulbound studios. I wrote about this since the beginning in other threads.

    As far as Soulbound studios I have also said nothing will come of it. Why? Because if they haven't legally dissolved the firm and it still operational as an LLC company then they can make the claim they are still working on it. In my opinion, they are not and won't, but the problem with courts is not what we believe and know to be true, it's what you can prove with evidence. Now, if the attorneys suing can do their own audit and find that there was fraud committed with the money obtained for game development that might be a different story. But the problem is if they paid each employ 200k salary, then they can legally justify the money spent on the game. Unless one can prove they purposely committed fraud, this lawsuit goes nowhere as I have said from the beginning in other reports on here.
    Kyleran

    I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....

  • olepiolepi Member EpicPosts: 2,863
    edited October 2020
    Star Citizen is smart to put on the website that  any money you give them is only a donation.

    You are not buying anything, you have no expectation of a product, and no product is guaranteed to be developed or delivered.

    Once Soulbound got Xsolla involved, they were heading for trouble. Xsolla actually sells products.
    Gdemami

    ------------
    2024: 47 years on the Net.


  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,902
    edited October 2020
    xion12121 said:

    As far as Soulbound studios I have also said nothing will come of it. Why? Because if they haven't legally dissolved the firm and it still operational as an LLC company then they can make the claim they are still working on it. In my opinion, they are not and won't, but the problem with courts is not what we believe and know to be true, it's what you can prove with evidence. ...

    Since it's a contract case they'd have good chance to prove it sufficiently. 

    In contract cases you only have to prove that something "is more likely true than not", i.e. more than 50% chance.

    If CoE backers show to the court with proof that CoE has laid off all their employees and stopped doing updates showing their progress which they used to do regularly, and Caspian comes to the court and makes a claim without any proof, the court will think something along the lines:
      1. CoE backers showed evidence that points to the development ceasing
      2. Caspian is in a position where he should have a lot of proof to support his claim if it were true but none of it was shown
      3. Therefore, it's more likely that CoE backer's claim about the development situation is correct than that Caspian's claim would be correct

    And this isn't even counting discovery. If it comes to argument about whether CoE is still being worked on or not in a court, it should go into discovery and they won't have to argue with just what they currently have.

    Gdemami
     
  • xion12121xion12121 Member UncommonPosts: 199
    edited October 2020
    Vrika said:
    xion12121 said:

    As far as Soulbound studios I have also said nothing will come of it. Why? Because if they haven't legally dissolved the firm and it still operational as an LLC company then they can make the claim they are still working on it. In my opinion, they are not and won't, but the problem with courts is not what we believe and know to be true, it's what you can prove with evidence. ...

    Since it's a contract case they'd have good chance to prove it sufficiently. 

    In contract cases you only have to prove that something "is more likely true than not", i.e. more than 50% chance.

    If CoE backers show to the court with proof that CoE has laid off all their employees and stopped doing updates showing their progress which they used to do regularly, and Caspian comes to the court and makes a claim without any proof, the court will think something along the lines:
      1. CoE backers showed evidence that points to the development ceasing
      2. Caspian is in a position where he should have a lot of proof to support his claim if it were true but none of it was shown
      3. Therefore, it's more likely that CoE backer's claim about the development situation is correct than that Caspian's claim would be correct

    And this isn't even counting discovery. If it comes to argument about whether CoE is still being worked on or not in a court, it should go into discovery and they won't have to argue with just what they currently have.

    Do I believe that Soulbound Studios defrauded people? Yah more than likely. The problem is in court you have to show proof of the fraud. I hope that investors are successful, but companies always put in the contract EULA that you sign a stipulation to protect themselves. What was mentioned in a forum is good, but not complete evidence. If the organization is not dissolved and still working on it, that's all they need to claim that they are still working on it. 

    These kickstarter programs are odd. Because it even says when you donate that you take the risk of the project and that the project may not make it to completion. Consider it like a donation if you will. If I donate to a charity I don't expect anything in return. Same thing with kickstarters. You are donating to a project, you are not actually purchasing a complete product. 

    But it becomes SBS responsibility to deliver. I hope though that backers are successful in court, I'm just trying to temper people's expectations as they think that it's a slam dunk once they start suing. First, the attorney has to agree to go to court to proceed with the lawsuit which could take 3 years or more. Second, the attorney will likely walk away with a majority of the money anyways like in most class action suits. If the company is an LLC with no money, no reward will be collected if its bankrupt and no money there. 

    That's why they went after Xscolla to see if they can add them in there since they have the cash. SBS probably has 0 cash. However, suing someone just because they have the cash doesn't mean it will work out. For example If I'm suing "johnny" who is an adult for getting into an accident with a motorcycle, I can't go out and sue his rich Uncle who has the money. 

    Same thing here, the suit has to be against SBS, Xscolla is like paypal a middle manager, they have nothing of responsibility for what SBS does on its project. I wish people luck and success in their suit, but it's good to keep things in perspective and temper expectations on what will happen.
    Gdemami

    I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    xion12121 said:


    Same thing here, the suit has to be against SBS, Xscolla is like paypal a middle manager, they have nothing of responsibility for what SBS does on its project. I wish people luck and success in their suit, but it's good to keep things in perspective and temper expectations on what will happen.
    Not sure how much you actually know on this subject.

    As far as I know, Paypal does not state they would refund the money for any undelivered software up to the day of release... Xsolla did.

    That is the only reason they are named in the suit

    GdemamiKyleran

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

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