What is starting to feel personal for me is that Im honestly starting to think the only reason people label him as "Jealous" is because he is a failed minority game developer. It's easier to pin labels on minorities trying to get into a predominately white male industry. See the thing is, POC have to do at least 5x more just to get in the door because we are measured by our success, not merits. It's true and always has been true especially in this industry. Especially in the 90s. I can name several game developers of color who failed because they only got ONE chance. I can also name 1000s of white ones that failed and kept getting chance after chance..so Derek Smart to me maybe a little jaded but he has every right to be. The dude probably had a hell of a time trying to get his game made. Again none of that is my point. Its just truth.
Probably is speculation, not truth. Presumption as to why people feel as they do isn't truth either. You may be a bit jaded from your experiences.
Regardless, this type of argument tends to undermine the maker rather than bolster. It's an odd choice in what had otherwise been a sound approach.
Well, I'm not speculating on if his race had anything to do with his game failure..His game failure has a lot of factors. I said being a minority had something to do with how many chances he got vs a white developer of the same skill and resource level. This is true and has been true for years. You can pretend you don't see it if you want to because it doesn't affect you. Derek and many people like him (myself included) don't have the privilege to act as if our race doesn't affect our opportunity. It absolutely does and the further back in history you go the worse it was.
I don't think its as bad as it was before today, things ARE changing, but its still an issue that not only Gaming/Entertainment is dealing with but our nation as a whole. There's a lot of work still to do with regards to race relations especially in gaming, its why all these long standing gaming companies are making overdue changes.. society is trying to change some things...not everything is right IMO (WOTC) but It's going to take a group effort to fully resolve it, that means not tucking your head under the sheet because you feel uncomfortable.
So yeah I guess, Odd for you maybe, but not for me. I deal with it daily. I'm one of the few people around this place that can directly speak to what that experience is like as POC TODAY as I'm active right now and I can tell you if you experienced it countless times you would be jaded a bit as well. You'd be more than jaded. I really don't think you should insinuate that my experiences have made me jaded when you will never experience them first hand. So when I say, Derek Smart probably dealt with some form of discrimination during his developer days I'm not really speculating, I'm speaking from experience, that's just what happens to all of us. Speculating is people saying Derek Smart is jealous of Chris Roberts because he's successful.. that's speculating. There is no proof of that, but Derek Smart being a minority is all the proof you need to know that there is truth to what I say.
Also, Hard pass on this point undermining anything I'm saying, I think its important to recognize when discussing Derek Smarts' failures as a Developer. You cannot say he is a failure and not recognize that part. That's part of it no matter what you want to believe. That's the world we have been in for 100s of years.
There isn't a POC working in entertainment on any level that can honestly say they have never faced discrimination at some point, if there is I would like to meet them. That's sadly how common of an occurrence it is.
Again, it's telling that people are just as or more upset at me quoting Derek Smart than they are at what Chris Roberts has been doing to them. The last time I checked DS wasn't sitting on a raid boss amount of cash. All he did was point it out.
Post edited by klash2def on
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Bottom line, they have technical issues which they have no idea how to resolve hence no ability to predict when SQ42 might go "beta," nevermind when it could release.
"When it's ready" is actually a cringe worthy response this many years later.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Chris Roberts and Derek Smart are like a coin, one is heads and the other is tails. Which is which does not matter.
They both toot their own horn so hard, the BS just covers everything.
After a while, trying to wade through what either one said is just a waste of your time.
Both of them have done shady things dealing with game development and gotten paid for doing it. So both are the same to me. Just a matter of scale is all.
As to this game SC...i still have the same question i had once the original crowd funding ended. If you have enough to make the game....why do they still keep taking the sheep for their cash and where is the game?
If they had put out a game like they promised, then taken the sheep for the rest...i would say fine...but no, they can't even produce the original S42 they said that was fully funded all those years ago.
I really have no clue how people can support anyone, that just takes and takes and takes, and still has not produced what was FULLY funded so many years ago. Since that time they have taken in like more than 200 million more....gamers are the most ignorant humans i have ever heard of..bar none.
Proof of the DS stuff? we all know about CR but I didn't know DS had an alpha space sim game out making 100s of millions of dollars
Someone needs to read i guess...who said he made 100s of millions?
I said they both toot their own horn, have done shady stuff, and speak BS...and the difference is only in scale... If you want someone to go back and post every game he worked on and other crap he pulled...ya no... do your own research.
For sure, i won't give him a hard pass because he is a POC as you describe him. Nothing more ridiculous than people trying to drag race or color or religion and politics into game discussions.
I imagine most people here had no clue what race DS was before the rants here. I did not, never had seen a picture of the man before.
What is starting to feel personal for me is that Im honestly starting to think the only reason people label him as "Jealous" is because he is a failed minority game developer. It's easier to pin labels on minorities trying to get into a predominately white male industry. See the thing is, POC have to do at least 5x more just to get in the door because we are measured by our success, not merits. It's true and always has been true especially in this industry. Especially in the 90s. I can name several game developers of color who failed because they only got ONE chance. I can also name 1000s of white ones that failed and kept getting chance after chance..so Derek Smart to me maybe a little jaded but he has every right to be. The dude probably had a hell of a time trying to get his game made. Again none of that is my point. Its just truth.
Probably is speculation, not truth. Presumption as to why people feel as they do isn't truth either. You may be a bit jaded from your experiences.
Regardless, this type of argument tends to undermine the maker rather than bolster. It's an odd choice in what had otherwise been a sound approach.
Well, I'm not speculating on if his race had anything to do with his game failure..His game failure has a lot of factors. I said being a minority had something to do with how many chances he got vs a white developer of the same skill and resource level. This is true and has been true for years. You can pretend you don't see it if you want to because it doesn't affect you. Derek and many people like him (myself included) don't have the privilege to act as if our race doesn't affect our opportunity. It absolutely does and the further back in history you go the worse it was.
I don't think its as bad as it was before today, things ARE changing, but its still an issue that not only Gaming/Entertainment is dealing with but our nation as a whole. There's a lot of work still to do with regards to race relations especially in gaming, its why all these long standing gaming companies are making overdue changes.. society is trying to change some things...not everything is right IMO (WOTC) but It's going to take a group effort to fully resolve it, that means not tucking your head under the sheet because you feel uncomfortable.
So yeah I guess, Odd for you maybe, but not for me. I deal with it daily. I'm one of the few people around this place that can directly speak to what that experience is like as POC TODAY as I'm active right now and I can tell you if you experienced it countless times you would be jaded a bit as well. You'd be more than jaded. I really don't think you should insinuate that my experiences have made me jaded when you will never experience them first hand. So when I say, Derek Smart probably dealt with some form of discrimination during his developer days I'm not really speculating, I'm speaking from experience, that's just what happens to all of us. Speculating is people saying Derek Smart is jealous of Chris Roberts because he's successful.. that's speculating. There is no proof of that, but Derek Smart being a minority is all the proof you need to know that there is truth to what I say.
Also, Hard pass on this point undermining anything I'm saying, I think its important to recognize when discussing Derek Smarts' failures as a Developer. You cannot say he is a failure and not recognize that part. That's part of it no matter what you want to believe. That's the world we have been in for 100s of years.
There isn't a POC working in entertainment on any level that can honestly say they have never faced discrimination at some point, if there is I would like to meet them. That's sadly how common of an occurrence it is.
Again, it's telling that people are just as or more upset at me quoting Derek Smart than they are at what Chris Roberts has been doing to them. The last time I checked DS wasn't sitting on a raid boss amount of cash. All he did was point it out.
You stated that this exchange in the forum is starting to cause you to feel that the label of "jealous" is being applied to him due to his race. By extension, that suggests you are being caused to feel that some here are being racist in their posts. That seems to me a rather extreme level of presumption, or at least allusion, to make based on the responses I've read here, given how even the suggestion of such can easily get out of hand with the social climate these days.
Your use of the word "probably" in relation to the issues Derek Smart faced getting his game made suggested you weren't certain, in turn suggesting it to be speculation rather than certainty. Your clarification here explains that wasn't the meaning you meant to convey, making my response no longer appropriate.
Regarding your comments on the gaming industry, with most of your posts suggesting to me you are are a reasonable and credible person, I expect the vast majority is quite accurate. At least there are signs of improvement.
However, if you think race alone is going to be universally accepted as all you need to say, it isn't. That may be all you need to say to someone with firsthand exposure to racism, especially if it is on a regular basis. For those not, it is inadequate, as they look at the world through an entirely different lens that has little understanding of that view, and in a fair number of cases little empathy.
The response to Derek Smart quotes is certainly vitriolic. Apparently people have ongoing issues with him as a person. I'm not familiar with him or his past in regards to gaming so have no idea why the reaction is so extreme. There has been ongoing critique of Chis Roberts and Star Citizen, so while not burning as bright it has been fairly long.
As for it being telling, the only thing it told me was that some people have pretty big issues related to him to the point where they don't even want to see posts he made or hear about what he said. I can't say how much the factors you raised contributed to their feelings about him, but they were interesting to read about regardless. Thank you for sharing your insight.
EDIT
I forgot to respond to the jaded thing. If I would be jaded a bit as well, that would make you a bit jaded, yes? I couldn't be as well if you were not so. As such, I feel my insinuation was quite apt being quite accurate.
Racial issues aren't the only thing one can get jaded about so one need not be intimately familiar with them to recognize when someone is demonstrating that state of being over them, or any other issue for that matter. The signs are quite similar regardless of the underlying issue.
So it looks like during the “cleanup” a lot of good points were lost. To get this back on track I will restate:
The only communication I want to see or hear from Roberts is a release date or information related to an actual Beta start. After all this time I do not need to see meaningless lists that they fixed x bugs or added y animations. Somehow just like with Jacobs and CU, there are always endless lists of “progress” yet we never get off the treadmill.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So it looks like during the “cleanup” a lot of good points were lost. To get this back on track I will restate:
The only communication I want to see or hear from Roberts is a release date or information related to an actual Beta start. After all this time I do not need to see meaningless lists that they fixed x bugs or added y animations. Somehow just like with Jacobs and CU, there are always endless lists of “progress” yet we never get off the treadmill.
Exactly, these two in particular bury backers with how busy they've been, but never share how much work is remaining nor how much longer it might take.
No other industry I know of would tolerate this sort of open ended scheduling and there's no way game development can justify their shoddy practices.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am just waiting for this thread to get derailed by some graphs with really big numbers, some random video’s, some not so subtle insults and then the conclusion that you don’t get it. Perhaps you will even hear that SC right now is already the best space game ever, completely passing by the fact that many have played it and have seen something different than that.
Ahh well, good times, lets see where this thread takes us.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Now now, we wouldn't want to derrail the old hatewagon trip to saltyville with facts and data.
Anyway, I got the juicy bits of footage of SQ42 for the few who might care:
SQ42 New Teaser:
Idris and space to bridge scene:
NPC Dialog Interactions:
Aciedo Space Station:
Ps- Still, the thread went way better than expected, lovely to see so many desperate space fans bounding over star citizen. ?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Bottom line, they have technical issues which they have no idea how to resolve hence no ability to predict when SQ42 might go "beta," nevermind when it could release.
"When it's ready" is actually a cringe worthy response this many years later.
I mean they wouldn't hide those specifics from a publisher, yet they refuse to be open and honest in terms of what tech is holding them back. It's really unacceptable how little they actually reveal in terms of SQ42's development issues.
"Chris Roberts is super serious" who can read that and not laugh?
I would laugh but seeing that CR the scumbag has wasted millions of dollars of other people's money with promises of unicorns and rainbows, it's not very funny.
Unlikely. Star Citizen's original ETA was late 2014, and the Kickstarter at that time made it clear that they were going for high-end graphics. Since there wasn't any real agreement about what its system requirements would be, it was implied that you'd need a high-end gaming computer by late 2014 standards.
I think all CPUs without AVX instructions are slower than that.
EDIT: But it looks like later on RSI has not placed a disclaimer that system requirements may change during development on their purchase page. Anyone who bought that way and met the requirements he was told at the time of purchase is entitled a refund if the requirements change so that he doesn't meet them any more
Exactly, these two in particular bury backers with how busy they've been, but never share how much work is remaining nor how much longer it might take.
The difference being that:
1) SC's monetization practices are waaaaaaaaay more aggressive, but... 2) SC at least lets players share video footage, whereas CU still hides behind the skirts of NDA, regardless of its now-2-year-old "beta(?!)" status.
I sincerely wish good luck to them both though.
Except this is about Squadron 42 and nothing (to my knowledge) has been shared by players because no player has ever played it...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
Well, I'm not speculating on if his race had anything to do with his game failure..His game failure has a lot of factors. I said being a minority had something to do with how many chances he got vs a white developer of the same skill and resource level. This is true and has been true for years. You can pretend you don't see it if you want to because it doesn't affect you. Derek and many people like him (myself included) don't have the privilege to act as if our race doesn't affect our opportunity. It absolutely does and the further back in history you go the worse it was.
I don't think its as bad as it was before today, things ARE changing, but its still an issue that not only Gaming/Entertainment is dealing with but our nation as a whole. There's a lot of work still to do with regards to race relations especially in gaming, its why all these long standing gaming companies are making overdue changes.. society is trying to change some things...not everything is right IMO (WOTC) but It's going to take a group effort to fully resolve it, that means not tucking your head under the sheet because you feel uncomfortable.
So yeah I guess, Odd for you maybe, but not for me. I deal with it daily. I'm one of the few people around this place that can directly speak to what that experience is like as POC TODAY as I'm active right now and I can tell you if you experienced it countless times you would be jaded a bit as well. You'd be more than jaded. I really don't think you should insinuate that my experiences have made me jaded when you will never experience them first hand. So when I say, Derek Smart probably dealt with some form of discrimination during his developer days I'm not really speculating, I'm speaking from experience, that's just what happens to all of us. Speculating is people saying Derek Smart is jealous of Chris Roberts because he's successful.. that's speculating. There is no proof of that, but Derek Smart being a minority is all the proof you need to know that there is truth to what I say.
Also, Hard pass on this point undermining anything I'm saying, I think its important to recognize when discussing Derek Smarts' failures as a Developer. You cannot say he is a failure and not recognize that part. That's part of it no matter what you want to believe. That's the world we have been in for 100s of years.
There isn't a POC working in entertainment on any level that can honestly say they have never faced discrimination at some point, if there is I would like to meet them. That's sadly how common of an occurrence it is.
Again, it's telling that people are just as or more upset at me quoting Derek Smart than they are at what Chris Roberts has been doing to them. The last time I checked DS wasn't sitting on a raid boss amount of cash. All he did was point it out.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
"When it's ready" is actually a cringe worthy response this many years later.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Chris's level of "serious"......It goes to eleven.
I said they both toot their own horn, have done shady stuff, and speak BS...and the difference is only in scale... If you want someone to go back and post every game he worked on and other crap he pulled...ya no... do your own research.
For sure, i won't give him a hard pass because he is a POC as you describe him. Nothing more ridiculous than people trying to drag race or color or religion and politics into game discussions.
I imagine most people here had no clue what race DS was before the rants here. I did not, never had seen a picture of the man before.
You stated that this exchange in the forum is starting to cause you to feel that the label of "jealous" is being applied to him due to his race. By extension, that suggests you are being caused to feel that some here are being racist in their posts. That seems to me a rather extreme level of presumption, or at least allusion, to make based on the responses I've read here, given how even the suggestion of such can easily get out of hand with the social climate these days.
Your use of the word "probably" in relation to the issues Derek Smart faced getting his game made suggested you weren't certain, in turn suggesting it to be speculation rather than certainty. Your clarification here explains that wasn't the meaning you meant to convey, making my response no longer appropriate.
Regarding your comments on the gaming industry, with most of your posts suggesting to me you are are a reasonable and credible person, I expect the vast majority is quite accurate. At least there are signs of improvement.
However, if you think race alone is going to be universally accepted as all you need to say, it isn't. That may be all you need to say to someone with firsthand exposure to racism, especially if it is on a regular basis. For those not, it is inadequate, as they look at the world through an entirely different lens that has little understanding of that view, and in a fair number of cases little empathy.
The response to Derek Smart quotes is certainly vitriolic. Apparently people have ongoing issues with him as a person. I'm not familiar with him or his past in regards to gaming so have no idea why the reaction is so extreme. There has been ongoing critique of Chis Roberts and Star Citizen, so while not burning as bright it has been fairly long.
As for it being telling, the only thing it told me was that some people have pretty big issues related to him to the point where they don't even want to see posts he made or hear about what he said. I can't say how much the factors you raised contributed to their feelings about him, but they were interesting to read about regardless. Thank you for sharing your insight.
Racial issues aren't the only thing one can get jaded about so one need not be intimately familiar with them to recognize when someone is demonstrating that state of being over them, or any other issue for that matter. The signs are quite similar regardless of the underlying issue.
The only communication I want to see or hear from Roberts is a release date or information related to an actual Beta start. After all this time I do not need to see meaningless lists that they fixed x bugs or added y animations. Somehow just like with Jacobs and CU, there are always endless lists of “progress” yet we never get off the treadmill.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
No other industry I know of would tolerate this sort of open ended scheduling and there's no way game development can justify their shoddy practices.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Anyway, I got the juicy bits of footage of SQ42 for the few who might care:
SQ42 New Teaser:
Idris and space to bridge scene:
NPC Dialog Interactions:
Aciedo Space Station:
Ps- Still, the thread went way better than expected, lovely to see so many desperate space fans bounding over star citizen. ?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I mean they wouldn't hide those specifics from a publisher, yet they refuse to be open and honest in terms of what tech is holding them back. It's really unacceptable how little they actually reveal in terms of SQ42's development issues.
It's quite disgusting.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Now this announcement....
What else will CR do?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I think all CPUs without AVX instructions are slower than that.
EDIT: But it looks like later on RSI has not placed a disclaimer that system requirements may change during development on their purchase page. Anyone who bought that way and met the requirements he was told at the time of purchase is entitled a refund if the requirements change so that he doesn't meet them any more
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018