It has nothing to do with people enjoying WoW. I still play WoW. Just no one has deviated from their core design in the past 16 years.
Yeah but that's quite different from "anti WOW" and not what the OP was about.
History of MMO design is an interesting discussion some of you branched off into but anti-WOW sentiments, at least in these forums, really do boil down to some people telling others they're enjoying the wrong thing.
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It has nothing to do with people enjoying WoW. I still play WoW. Just no one has deviated from their core design in the past 16 years.
Yeah but that's quite different from "anti WOW" and not what the OP was about.
History of MMO design is an interesting discussion some of you branched off into but anti-WOW sentiments, at least in these forums, really do boil down to some people telling others they're enjoying the wrong thing.
Much as I would tell people who enjoy base jumping or free climbing they are having fun in the wrong way.
All three are potentially harmful (albeit in different ways, physically for the first two, mentally for WOW) to both the participants and those dealing with the mess afterwards, at least in my opinion.
It's just gaming doesn't thin out the gene pool quite as well as most extreme sports.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
Good question. I think trying to mimic a table top RPG experience but in a format that works in an mmorpg. Something that happens organically while adventuring and exploring.
The problem with the Anti WoW concept is you first have to understand "What Exactly Is WoW?"
This the root of the Anti-WoW problem.
WoW is a MMO that built its entire success off of copying ideas from other sources and in an innovative manner, introducing these features into their own game WoW.
WoW is not an original concept.
So building an MMO around "We Not Doing XYZABC123 because WoW Does XYZABC123"
just mean all Anti WoW concept MMOs will just continuously being running away from interesting game ideas because WoW is never going to stop adding new ideas to their game that are interesting concepts from other MMOs.
Thanks very much for this explanation, makes much more sense than the original post and I can now see what you were aiming at.
So, yes, I can kind of agree with your point.
Blizzard are extremely good at taking innovative, but rough, ideas from other studios, then polishing it up and making it accessible for the masses. Like you said, nothing in WoW was new or innovative, but Blizzard added a level of polish that boosted them to high levels of success.
Simply being anti-WoW can therefore be a mistake, because WoW did a lot of things right.
That said, Blizzard are not innovative and therefore they rely on other studios being innovative. With everyone else copying WoW, where were Blizz going to get their new ideas from? This is why I believe we've seen a lot of stagnation within WoW, just lots more of the same, lots of "steamlining" and nothing to really push the envelope and make the game better, and by extension make the genre better.
From that point of view then, I can see that modern devs are sometimes right to be a bit anti-WoW, just because modern WoW's design is now old fashioned, stagnant and not really appropriate for a new game. It's continued success is down to pure momentum and not based on it's own merits.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr7X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr7X Shaman
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
Very good question. The answer will be totally different depending on the type of game you are aiming to build, but I have a number of thoughts.
1) Remove XP from quests
We should be gaining experience from our actions, not for the final hand-in to an NPC. Removing XP from quests would make it more optional (great for players like me) but would still be worth doing for the gold and/or gear and/or reputation.
2) Majority of quests should be dynamically generated
Lets say an NPC trader caravan is ambushed by NPC bandits on the road. That should generate a generic goal "deal with the bandits". Or, lets say a farm has been raided and thus food production for the village has dropped, that should generate a quest to provide more food.
I also feel like all NPCs should be able to generate quests. It may well be that most NPCs can only give you crap quests (i need some carrots for my dinner....) but i feel like this would open up many more playstyles. Perhaps you're a really casual gamer, or just want a chilled out time, so providing food to hungry citizens is just what you want!
I would also hope that such a system would start providing real, meaningful differences between locations. A well run city with good guards is unlikely to have that many combat-focused quests, but may well have a lot more economic quests. Likewise, if players started ignoring a zone, maybe it'll become more "rough", with more bandits moving in.
3) Multiple goals / levels of success.
In the bandit attacking a caravan example from above, there should be multiple levels of completion. If you are playing a scout / stealth type class, the goal might just be to track and locate the bandits, then report their location to the local guards. If you are a warrior, the goal should be to wipe them out or arrest them and deliver to the guards. But, what about if you got the quest from the surviving caravan owner? In that case, maybe the goal is to recover the remaining goods, rewarding you with a discount at that trader.
4) Reputation Matters
With the quests being dynamically generated, I feel like personal reputation should matter much more than it currently does. If you speak to the same NPCs and complete more tasks for them, they'll like you more, opening up better rewards over time, or maybe the NPC's friends will be more likely to speak to you and give you more quests.
5) Chat Bots
I imagine this one will be quite contentious, but I feel like chat bot technology has now advanced far enough to be used for NPC dialogue for all these dynamically generated quests. This would then allow the NPCs to react differently to different players based on a whole host of variables. If you're a good guy, maybe the NPC is quite friendly, but if you've got a rep for being a killer, maybe the NPC will be polite but wary.
6) Scripted quests should be really special
Whilst i firmly believe in the power of dynamically generated quests, they are there to replace all of the side quests / fluff we usually see and give the players more choice. Main storylines still require proper writers and interesting mechanics and so need developers to code it. In order for a story to remain coherant and consistent, it needs to be tightly controlled, so I feel like these main quests should be instanced.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr7X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr7X Shaman
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
Very good question. The answer will be totally different depending on the type of game you are aiming to build, but I have a number of thoughts.
1) Remove XP from quests
We should be gaining experience from our actions, not for the final hand-in to an NPC. Removing XP from quests would make it more optional (great for players like me) but would still be worth doing for the gold and/or gear and/or reputation.
2) Majority of quests should be dynamically generated
Lets say an NPC trader caravan is ambushed by NPC bandits on the road. That should generate a generic goal "deal with the bandits". Or, lets say a farm has been raided and thus food production for the village has dropped, that should generate a quest to provide more food.
I also feel like all NPCs should be able to generate quests. It may well be that most NPCs can only give you crap quests (i need some carrots for my dinner....) but i feel like this would open up many more playstyles. Perhaps you're a really casual gamer, or just want a chilled out time, so providing food to hungry citizens is just what you want!
I would also hope that such a system would start providing real, meaningful differences between locations. A well run city with good guards is unlikely to have that many combat-focused quests, but may well have a lot more economic quests. Likewise, if players started ignoring a zone, maybe it'll become more "rough", with more bandits moving in.
3) Multiple goals / levels of success.
In the bandit attacking a caravan example from above, there should be multiple levels of completion. If you are playing a scout / stealth type class, the goal might just be to track and locate the bandits, then report their location to the local guards. If you are a warrior, the goal should be to wipe them out or arrest them and deliver to the guards. But, what about if you got the quest from the surviving caravan owner? In that case, maybe the goal is to recover the remaining goods, rewarding you with a discount at that trader.
4) Reputation Matters
With the quests being dynamically generated, I feel like personal reputation should matter much more than it currently does. If you speak to the same NPCs and complete more tasks for them, they'll like you more, opening up better rewards over time, or maybe the NPC's friends will be more likely to speak to you and give you more quests.
5) Chat Bots
I imagine this one will be quite contentious, but I feel like chat bot technology has now advanced far enough to be used for NPC dialogue for all these dynamically generated quests. This would then allow the NPCs to react differently to different players based on a whole host of variables. If you're a good guy, maybe the NPC is quite friendly, but if you've got a rep for being a killer, maybe the NPC will be polite but wary.
6) Scripted quests should be really special
Whilst i firmly believe in the power of dynamically generated quests, they are there to replace all of the side quests / fluff we usually see and give the players more choice. Main storylines still require proper writers and interesting mechanics and so need developers to code it. In order for a story to remain coherant and consistent, it needs to be tightly controlled, so I feel like these main quests should be instanced.
I really like your ideas here. But I don't like instances unless there is a reasoning behind them. In other words, a mechanic that takes the quester to a place that's in the game world, but not accessible to any that don't know "the password" or similar mechanic.
I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
Alright, well the only game I played that embraced or at least presented a design direction of being "Anti-Wow" or against the norm, was GW2.
With that said, originally GW2, was the epic shizzle.
1) They did away with the vertical gear grind and replaced it with a horizontal cosmetic grind. Which was great, Exotci 80th levelk gear, was cheap and plentiful, so everyone could very easy get a full set at 80th or very shortly thereafter, this made grinding or questing after things something that was fully optional and had no effect on your characters performance. Even Legendary Gear was still just Exotic with a pretty skin.
(Revision AKA Wow-ification) They added in Ascended & Infusions, which started the Vertical Gear Grind, and followed this up with continual arguments to Legendary which made them the best gear in the game, so again. doubling down on the vertical gear grind.
1) They had World Bosses as opposed to raid Bosses. This was great, as anyone and everyone could join in on a world boss fight, have fun, and get loot.
Wow-ified: Made World Bosses Much harder.
Wow-Ified Again: Added in Raids.
There is a whole series of this, and it mainly boils down to the fact that players want every game to be a wow clone, without being a wow clone.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
We've had quite a few threads on alternatives for quests. No one has really come up with a better solution and apparently people don't want less like we had in EQ in its early years, so we get WoW clones with tons of quests. Personally I byrned out on questing years ago. WoW, EQ2, LoTRO and a couple other games just wore me out on questing, especially if I had to constantly run back and forth to do them.
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
Very good question. The answer will be totally different depending on the type of game you are aiming to build, but I have a number of thoughts.
1) Remove XP from quests
We should be gaining experience from our actions, not for the final hand-in to an NPC. Removing XP from quests would make it more optional (great for players like me) but would still be worth doing for the gold and/or gear and/or reputation.
2) Majority of quests should be dynamically generated
Lets say an NPC trader caravan is ambushed by NPC bandits on the road. That should generate a generic goal "deal with the bandits". Or, lets say a farm has been raided and thus food production for the village has dropped, that should generate a quest to provide more food.
I also feel like all NPCs should be able to generate quests. It may well be that most NPCs can only give you crap quests (i need some carrots for my dinner....) but i feel like this would open up many more playstyles. Perhaps you're a really casual gamer, or just want a chilled out time, so providing food to hungry citizens is just what you want!
I would also hope that such a system would start providing real, meaningful differences between locations. A well run city with good guards is unlikely to have that many combat-focused quests, but may well have a lot more economic quests. Likewise, if players started ignoring a zone, maybe it'll become more "rough", with more bandits moving in.
3) Multiple goals / levels of success.
In the bandit attacking a caravan example from above, there should be multiple levels of completion. If you are playing a scout / stealth type class, the goal might just be to track and locate the bandits, then report their location to the local guards. If you are a warrior, the goal should be to wipe them out or arrest them and deliver to the guards. But, what about if you got the quest from the surviving caravan owner? In that case, maybe the goal is to recover the remaining goods, rewarding you with a discount at that trader.
4) Reputation Matters
With the quests being dynamically generated, I feel like personal reputation should matter much more than it currently does. If you speak to the same NPCs and complete more tasks for them, they'll like you more, opening up better rewards over time, or maybe the NPC's friends will be more likely to speak to you and give you more quests.
5) Chat Bots
I imagine this one will be quite contentious, but I feel like chat bot technology has now advanced far enough to be used for NPC dialogue for all these dynamically generated quests. This would then allow the NPCs to react differently to different players based on a whole host of variables. If you're a good guy, maybe the NPC is quite friendly, but if you've got a rep for being a killer, maybe the NPC will be polite but wary.
6) Scripted quests should be really special
Whilst i firmly believe in the power of dynamically generated quests, they are there to replace all of the side quests / fluff we usually see and give the players more choice. Main storylines still require proper writers and interesting mechanics and so need developers to code it. In order for a story to remain coherant and consistent, it needs to be tightly controlled, so I feel like these main quests should be instanced.
I really like your ideas here. But I don't like instances unless there is a reasoning behind them. In other words, a mechanic that takes the quester to a place that's in the game world, but not accessible to any that don't know "the password" or similar mechanic.
I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
My thinking on instances for story-focused quests is as follows.
Assuming we are talking about devs telling a story, rather than players creating a story, then the best stories are those that are tightly controlled. At the extreme, this means no gameplay at all (a film or a book). The more gameplay you introduce into the story, the worse the story gets because the player's actions are more and more likely to contradict the story you are trying to tell.
So, by putting the story-focused quests into instances, you help to minimise the negative impact on the story by other players, as well as more tightly controlling the environment so that the story being told is consistent. Nothing more immersion breaking than taking on a story boss whilst some random xLegolasx dude bunnyhops through the background!
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr7X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr7X Shaman
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
Very good question. The answer will be totally different depending on the type of game you are aiming to build, but I have a number of thoughts.
1) Remove XP from quests
We should be gaining experience from our actions, not for the final hand-in to an NPC. Removing XP from quests would make it more optional (great for players like me) but would still be worth doing for the gold and/or gear and/or reputation.
2) Majority of quests should be dynamically generated
Lets say an NPC trader caravan is ambushed by NPC bandits on the road. That should generate a generic goal "deal with the bandits". Or, lets say a farm has been raided and thus food production for the village has dropped, that should generate a quest to provide more food.
I also feel like all NPCs should be able to generate quests. It may well be that most NPCs can only give you crap quests (i need some carrots for my dinner....) but i feel like this would open up many more playstyles. Perhaps you're a really casual gamer, or just want a chilled out time, so providing food to hungry citizens is just what you want!
I would also hope that such a system would start providing real, meaningful differences between locations. A well run city with good guards is unlikely to have that many combat-focused quests, but may well have a lot more economic quests. Likewise, if players started ignoring a zone, maybe it'll become more "rough", with more bandits moving in.
3) Multiple goals / levels of success.
In the bandit attacking a caravan example from above, there should be multiple levels of completion. If you are playing a scout / stealth type class, the goal might just be to track and locate the bandits, then report their location to the local guards. If you are a warrior, the goal should be to wipe them out or arrest them and deliver to the guards. But, what about if you got the quest from the surviving caravan owner? In that case, maybe the goal is to recover the remaining goods, rewarding you with a discount at that trader.
4) Reputation Matters
With the quests being dynamically generated, I feel like personal reputation should matter much more than it currently does. If you speak to the same NPCs and complete more tasks for them, they'll like you more, opening up better rewards over time, or maybe the NPC's friends will be more likely to speak to you and give you more quests.
5) Chat Bots
I imagine this one will be quite contentious, but I feel like chat bot technology has now advanced far enough to be used for NPC dialogue for all these dynamically generated quests. This would then allow the NPCs to react differently to different players based on a whole host of variables. If you're a good guy, maybe the NPC is quite friendly, but if you've got a rep for being a killer, maybe the NPC will be polite but wary.
6) Scripted quests should be really special
Whilst i firmly believe in the power of dynamically generated quests, they are there to replace all of the side quests / fluff we usually see and give the players more choice. Main storylines still require proper writers and interesting mechanics and so need developers to code it. In order for a story to remain coherant and consistent, it needs to be tightly controlled, so I feel like these main quests should be instanced.
I really like your ideas here. But I don't like instances unless there is a reasoning behind them. In other words, a mechanic that takes the quester to a place that's in the game world, but not accessible to any that don't know "the password" or similar mechanic.
I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
My thinking on instances for story-focused quests is as follows.
Assuming we are talking about devs telling a story, rather than players creating a story, then the best stories are those that are tightly controlled. At the extreme, this means no gameplay at all (a film or a book). The more gameplay you introduce into the story, the worse the story gets because the player's actions are more and more likely to contradict the story you are trying to tell.
So, by putting the story-focused quests into instances, you help to minimise the negative impact on the story by other players, as well as more tightly controlling the environment so that the story being told is consistent. Nothing more immersion breaking than taking on a story boss whilst some random xLegolasx dude bunnyhops through the background!
Is this supposed to be a massively multiplayer game or not? To leave out the actions and story of other players, in my opinion, hurts the overall worldly story that could and should be involved.
And who cares if some Elf bunny hops though the background when, by game design, that's part of their very nature?
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
Very good question. The answer will be totally different depending on the type of game you are aiming to build, but I have a number of thoughts.
1) Remove XP from quests
We should be gaining experience from our actions, not for the final hand-in to an NPC. Removing XP from quests would make it more optional (great for players like me) but would still be worth doing for the gold and/or gear and/or reputation.
2) Majority of quests should be dynamically generated
Lets say an NPC trader caravan is ambushed by NPC bandits on the road. That should generate a generic goal "deal with the bandits". Or, lets say a farm has been raided and thus food production for the village has dropped, that should generate a quest to provide more food.
I also feel like all NPCs should be able to generate quests. It may well be that most NPCs can only give you crap quests (i need some carrots for my dinner....) but i feel like this would open up many more playstyles. Perhaps you're a really casual gamer, or just want a chilled out time, so providing food to hungry citizens is just what you want!
I would also hope that such a system would start providing real, meaningful differences between locations. A well run city with good guards is unlikely to have that many combat-focused quests, but may well have a lot more economic quests. Likewise, if players started ignoring a zone, maybe it'll become more "rough", with more bandits moving in.
3) Multiple goals / levels of success.
In the bandit attacking a caravan example from above, there should be multiple levels of completion. If you are playing a scout / stealth type class, the goal might just be to track and locate the bandits, then report their location to the local guards. If you are a warrior, the goal should be to wipe them out or arrest them and deliver to the guards. But, what about if you got the quest from the surviving caravan owner? In that case, maybe the goal is to recover the remaining goods, rewarding you with a discount at that trader.
4) Reputation Matters
With the quests being dynamically generated, I feel like personal reputation should matter much more than it currently does. If you speak to the same NPCs and complete more tasks for them, they'll like you more, opening up better rewards over time, or maybe the NPC's friends will be more likely to speak to you and give you more quests.
5) Chat Bots
I imagine this one will be quite contentious, but I feel like chat bot technology has now advanced far enough to be used for NPC dialogue for all these dynamically generated quests. This would then allow the NPCs to react differently to different players based on a whole host of variables. If you're a good guy, maybe the NPC is quite friendly, but if you've got a rep for being a killer, maybe the NPC will be polite but wary.
6) Scripted quests should be really special
Whilst i firmly believe in the power of dynamically generated quests, they are there to replace all of the side quests / fluff we usually see and give the players more choice. Main storylines still require proper writers and interesting mechanics and so need developers to code it. In order for a story to remain coherant and consistent, it needs to be tightly controlled, so I feel like these main quests should be instanced.
I really like your ideas here. But I don't like instances unless there is a reasoning behind them. In other words, a mechanic that takes the quester to a place that's in the game world, but not accessible to any that don't know "the password" or similar mechanic.
I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
My thinking on instances for story-focused quests is as follows.
Assuming we are talking about devs telling a story, rather than players creating a story, then the best stories are those that are tightly controlled. At the extreme, this means no gameplay at all (a film or a book). The more gameplay you introduce into the story, the worse the story gets because the player's actions are more and more likely to contradict the story you are trying to tell.
So, by putting the story-focused quests into instances, you help to minimise the negative impact on the story by other players, as well as more tightly controlling the environment so that the story being told is consistent. Nothing more immersion breaking than taking on a story boss whilst some random xLegolasx dude bunnyhops through the background!
Is this supposed to be a massively multiplayer game or not? To leave out the actions and story of other players, in my opinion, hurts the overall worldly story that could and should be involved.
And who cares if some Elf bunny hops though the background when, by game design, that's part of their very nature?
Yeh, for an MMORPG.
As I've said many times before, I don't like dev-told stories in my games, I don't think it ever works out well, I prefer player created stories (i.e. the sum of our actions).
But, I recognise that many players do enjoy well told stories, and I believe that the best stories are the ones that are tightly controlled so that player actions don't contradict the story that is being told. The majority of the rest of the game should all be non-instanced, but if the devs insist on telling a story, try to do it right :P
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr82 Black Orc | Scrotling rr7X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr7X Shaman
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
Very good question. The answer will be totally different depending on the type of game you are aiming to build, but I have a number of thoughts.
1) Remove XP from quests
We should be gaining experience from our actions, not for the final hand-in to an NPC. Removing XP from quests would make it more optional (great for players like me) but would still be worth doing for the gold and/or gear and/or reputation.
2) Majority of quests should be dynamically generated
Lets say an NPC trader caravan is ambushed by NPC bandits on the road. That should generate a generic goal "deal with the bandits". Or, lets say a farm has been raided and thus food production for the village has dropped, that should generate a quest to provide more food.
I also feel like all NPCs should be able to generate quests. It may well be that most NPCs can only give you crap quests (i need some carrots for my dinner....) but i feel like this would open up many more playstyles. Perhaps you're a really casual gamer, or just want a chilled out time, so providing food to hungry citizens is just what you want!
I would also hope that such a system would start providing real, meaningful differences between locations. A well run city with good guards is unlikely to have that many combat-focused quests, but may well have a lot more economic quests. Likewise, if players started ignoring a zone, maybe it'll become more "rough", with more bandits moving in.
3) Multiple goals / levels of success.
In the bandit attacking a caravan example from above, there should be multiple levels of completion. If you are playing a scout / stealth type class, the goal might just be to track and locate the bandits, then report their location to the local guards. If you are a warrior, the goal should be to wipe them out or arrest them and deliver to the guards. But, what about if you got the quest from the surviving caravan owner? In that case, maybe the goal is to recover the remaining goods, rewarding you with a discount at that trader.
4) Reputation Matters
With the quests being dynamically generated, I feel like personal reputation should matter much more than it currently does. If you speak to the same NPCs and complete more tasks for them, they'll like you more, opening up better rewards over time, or maybe the NPC's friends will be more likely to speak to you and give you more quests.
5) Chat Bots
I imagine this one will be quite contentious, but I feel like chat bot technology has now advanced far enough to be used for NPC dialogue for all these dynamically generated quests. This would then allow the NPCs to react differently to different players based on a whole host of variables. If you're a good guy, maybe the NPC is quite friendly, but if you've got a rep for being a killer, maybe the NPC will be polite but wary.
6) Scripted quests should be really special
Whilst i firmly believe in the power of dynamically generated quests, they are there to replace all of the side quests / fluff we usually see and give the players more choice. Main storylines still require proper writers and interesting mechanics and so need developers to code it. In order for a story to remain coherant and consistent, it needs to be tightly controlled, so I feel like these main quests should be instanced.
I really like your ideas here. But I don't like instances unless there is a reasoning behind them. In other words, a mechanic that takes the quester to a place that's in the game world, but not accessible to any that don't know "the password" or similar mechanic.
I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
My thinking on instances for story-focused quests is as follows.
Assuming we are talking about devs telling a story, rather than players creating a story, then the best stories are those that are tightly controlled. At the extreme, this means no gameplay at all (a film or a book). The more gameplay you introduce into the story, the worse the story gets because the player's actions are more and more likely to contradict the story you are trying to tell.
So, by putting the story-focused quests into instances, you help to minimise the negative impact on the story by other players, as well as more tightly controlling the environment so that the story being told is consistent. Nothing more immersion breaking than taking on a story boss whilst some random xLegolasx dude bunnyhops through the background!
Is this supposed to be a massively multiplayer game or not? To leave out the actions and story of other players, in my opinion, hurts the overall worldly story that could and should be involved.
And who cares if some Elf bunny hops though the background when, by game design, that's part of their very nature?
Yeh, for an MMORPG.
As I've said many times before, I don't like dev-told stories in my games, I don't think it ever works out well, I prefer player created stories (i.e. the sum of our actions).
But, I recognise that many players do enjoy well told stories, and I believe that the best stories are the ones that are tightly controlled so that player actions don't contradict the story that is being told. The majority of the rest of the game should all be non-instanced, but if the devs insist on telling a story, try to do it right :P
There's two things about that. 1, as soon as you put instances in the game, then players who are used to the quest grinds in other games will be demanding that the rest of the primary game play gets that too. 2, is that going to add Rinse & Repeat?
Also, that removes any promises of a non-instanced game. Before it's even launched, players will either expect a Themepark like experience or complain that you are full of it. That's bad news all around.
Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
Is this supposed to be a massively multiplayer game or not? To leave out the actions and story of other players, in my opinion, hurts the overall worldly story that could and should be involved.
And who cares if some Elf bunny hops though the background when, by game design, that's part of their very nature?
Yeh, for an MMORPG.
As I've said many times before, I don't like dev-told stories in my games, I don't think it ever works out well, I prefer player created stories (i.e. the sum of our actions).
But, I recognise that many players do enjoy well told stories, and I believe that the best stories are the ones that are tightly controlled so that player actions don't contradict the story that is being told. The majority of the rest of the game should all be non-instanced, but if the devs insist on telling a story, try to do it right :P
There's two things about that. 1, as soon as you put instances in the game, then players who are used to the quest grinds in other games will be demanding that the rest of the primary game play gets that too. 2, is that going to add Rinse & Repeat?
Also, that removes any promises of a non-instanced game. Before it's even launched, players will either expect a Themepark like experience or complain that you are full of it. That's bad news all around.
I think if you set player expectations correctly, they'll be pretty OK with having the majority of the game non-instanced, and just a few high-quality story quests being instanced. That's pretty much how the majority of current mmorpgs work anyway, plus i wouldn't be promising fully non-instanced or anything like that.
As for rinse-and-repeat, not sure where that's come from. Story is generally a one-hit-wonder, so I wouldn't expect them to be repeating those story quests over and over.
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Quest hub game design. Not a single mmo has deviated from this model it since WoW. Really, the concept of quests in MMOs need to be changed. A quest was supposed to be an epic adventure, not a laundry list of chores. And as long as xp is tied to quests, it becomes something you have to do and to be completed as fast as possible. Xp for quests is something that really needs to go away imo.
That brings up the question, "what should a quest be like in the new MMORPG?"
I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
Is this supposed to be a massively multiplayer game or not? To leave out the actions and story of other players, in my opinion, hurts the overall worldly story that could and should be involved.
And who cares if some Elf bunny hops though the background when, by game design, that's part of their very nature?
Yeh, for an MMORPG.
As I've said many times before, I don't like dev-told stories in my games, I don't think it ever works out well, I prefer player created stories (i.e. the sum of our actions).
But, I recognise that many players do enjoy well told stories, and I believe that the best stories are the ones that are tightly controlled so that player actions don't contradict the story that is being told. The majority of the rest of the game should all be non-instanced, but if the devs insist on telling a story, try to do it right :P
There's two things about that. 1, as soon as you put instances in the game, then players who are used to the quest grinds in other games will be demanding that the rest of the primary game play gets that too. 2, is that going to add Rinse & Repeat?
Also, that removes any promises of a non-instanced game. Before it's even launched, players will either expect a Themepark like experience or complain that you are full of it. That's bad news all around.
I think if you set player expectations correctly, they'll be pretty OK with having the majority of the game non-instanced, and just a few high-quality story quests being instanced. That's pretty much how the majority of current mmorpgs work anyway, plus i wouldn't be promising fully non-instanced or anything like that.
As for rinse-and-repeat, not sure where that's come from. Story is generally a one-hit-wonder, so I wouldn't expect them to be repeating those story quests over and over.
Alright. I can overlook it, what with your other ideas having me so excited. I hope you can present it better than just a glowy force field. Maybe something like Skyrim's Dragon Claw doors, but different.
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History of MMO design is an interesting discussion some of you branched off into but anti-WOW sentiments, at least in these forums, really do boil down to some people telling others they're enjoying the wrong thing.
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All three are potentially harmful (albeit in different ways, physically for the first two, mentally for WOW) to both the participants and those dealing with the mess afterwards, at least in my opinion.
It's just gaming doesn't thin out the gene pool quite as well as most extreme sports.
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I may have more replies on this, you've touched my imagination.
Once upon a time....
Alright, well the only game I played that embraced or at least presented a design direction of being "Anti-Wow" or against the norm, was GW2.
With that said, originally GW2, was the epic shizzle.
1) They did away with the vertical gear grind and replaced it with a horizontal cosmetic grind. Which was great, Exotci 80th levelk gear, was cheap and plentiful, so everyone could very easy get a full set at 80th or very shortly thereafter, this made grinding or questing after things something that was fully optional and had no effect on your characters performance. Even Legendary Gear was still just Exotic with a pretty skin.
(Revision AKA Wow-ification) They added in Ascended & Infusions, which started the Vertical Gear Grind, and followed this up with continual arguments to Legendary which made them the best gear in the game, so again. doubling down on the vertical gear grind.
1) They had World Bosses as opposed to raid Bosses. This was great, as anyone and everyone could join in on a world boss fight, have fun, and get loot.
Wow-ified: Made World Bosses Much harder.
Wow-Ified Again: Added in Raids.
There is a whole series of this, and it mainly boils down to the fact that players want every game to be a wow clone, without being a wow clone.
We've had quite a few threads on alternatives for quests. No one has really come up with a better solution and apparently people don't want less like we had in EQ in its early years, so we get WoW clones with tons of quests. Personally I byrned out on questing years ago. WoW, EQ2, LoTRO and a couple other games just wore me out on questing, especially if I had to constantly run back and forth to do them.
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Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
To leave out the actions and story of other players, in my opinion, hurts the overall worldly story that could and should be involved.
And who cares if some Elf bunny hops though the background when, by game design, that's part of their very nature?
Once upon a time....
1, as soon as you put instances in the game, then players who are used to the quest grinds in other games will be demanding that the rest of the primary game play gets that too.
2, is that going to add Rinse & Repeat?
Also, that removes any promises of a non-instanced game. Before it's even launched, players will either expect a Themepark like experience or complain that you are full of it.
That's bad news all around.
Once upon a time....
I hope you can present it better than just a glowy force field. Maybe something like Skyrim's Dragon Claw doors, but different.
Once upon a time....