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The Importance of Crowd Control with PVE Gameplay

EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
edited June 2019 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
It seems as if significant crowd control has been diminished over the core gameplay of pve content. Specifically, modern retail WoW it's essentially mindlessly AOE down a trash pack. Again, I guess it determines the approach to engage a combat encounter in a game's pve system. 

I really think Crowd Control should be prevalent again in PVE gameplay. 

Crowd Control can mean many things to many different players. This is how I would break down crowd control. 

SOFT CC
Snares - decrease movement speed
Roots - keeps npc in place but npcs can still attack, damage can break roots
Stuns - low duration cc that can have an npc be ineffective. Can break with damage.

HARD CC
Strong Roots - keeps npc in place but npc can still attack, damage does not break root.
Mesmerize/Lull  - the npc is 100% nullifed, Can't attack or move. Damage will break it. Long duration control.

Hard CC is integrated into a class role at a primary or secondary level and doesn't have mass distribution among your classes. 

Soft CC has a larger distribution among more classes and typically categorized as utility. 

Let's also define the difference between a primary and secondary role. 

Primary Role
Your role in how you engage in combat. Typically the trinity (tank/dps/heal) -- Think Enchanter/Bard in Everquest.

Secondary Role
Your role in how you engage in combat but brought to groups based on your primary role. -- Think WoW Mage. (Mage = DPS that happens to CC)

Questions for Discussion

1. Should CC be an integral asset to PVE Gameplay again? Why or why not?

2. Should Hard CC be categorized in a Primary Role or Secondary Role? 

Would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks for posting!

Comments

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,406
    CC is too binary, especially the EQ1 mez.   I'd be happy to see another form of CC that isn't such a succeed/fail, but I really don't need to see it as a major element again.  My first character was an Enchanter; I'm mezzed out.

    The idea I always wanted to see was the knockdown as a form of crowd control.  Knock the enemy down and grapple with them.  Hold them down, fight to take their weapon from them.  Or have the fat kid sit on him.  Either way, there's an opponent out of the fight at the expense of one of your side's members.  As soon as the friend stops paying attention, or the opponent gets loose, the opponent will rejoin the fight.  That's far less predictable combat situation than the 30s or 45s spell duration.



    [Deleted User]

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,571
    The topic comes up occasionally, when rambling on the good old times.
    Unfortunately, the genre, and especially the current playerbase goes the exact opposite direction, with dumbing down everything...


    As for the questions: 2) should CC be a role, yep of course it should.
    Just like originally, when the trinity wasn't even tank/dps/heal as you wrote but tank/dps/support. LotRO had several dedicated support classes, for example, but you could cite most games from those times. (among them, LM's primary role was CC. But there was a primary buffer, etc. )

    1) should it be an integral asset to gameplay, yep of course it should.
    CC is fun, it adds a tactical layer to the encounters, makes group play more coordinated, etc.
    And that's why it won't "come back", ever... players of today just want the mindless pew pew. Even the healer role is on its way to extinction, and tank is only relevant because it helps focus the attention and the firing of dps. The joys of action combat, right?  (not)
    AlBQuirkyHawkaya399
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Crowd control adds a very interesting component to group play. When to mez. What to mez. What not to mez. Not breaking mez. Keeping up with the length of mez. Having an off tank pick up when mez is broken. And so on. 

    Sadly people don't appreciate that type of play as much as they used to.
    EronakisAlBQuirky[Deleted User]achesoma

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,496
    That is pretty unfortunate. Hell even doing M+10 or higher in wow, you rarely use CC. I do want it baked back into games again simply because it does require you to pay attention, which is enough. I know some people say 'mildly' or something like that but keep in mind that games are designed right now with pretty much 100% success which honestly inspires no one to play past the bare minimum. You look at stuff like LFR in WoW or 24man 'raids' in FFXIV, half the people can just afk on the first week of it being out for them and still clear without a problem. I get that these things exist for people who claim to not have enough time, but that doesn't excuse it being dumbed down. Even the dumbest of stuff in normal mode raids in wow are made even dumber for lfr, like normal may have you keeping 2 bosses separated where as it wont matter in lfr because the 'enhancing' buff or whatever the bosses have are removed for that mode. As for XIV, 'raids' are a shell of themselves as they once were in 2.X which is pretty sad.
    AlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,202
    Vanilla wow had some crowd control with the mages, but really it was such a short time that most people just decided to overpower everything and it wasn't really necessary except in certain places. Early EQ you had to have crowd control or you often died a horrible death because of adds.
    AlBQuirkyEronakis
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    edited June 2019
    I think CC skills should be there if you're finding the content tough.

    That's why its not needed anymore as the encounters you come across are pretty mindless.

    I also think it should be a skill all classes possess. Not a fan of dedicated CC classes.
    AlBQuirkyHawkaya399

    image
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,707
    edited June 2019
    Eronakis said:
    Questions for Discussion

    1. Should CC be an integral asset to PVE Gameplay again? Why or why not?

    2. Should Hard CC be categorized in a Primary Role or Secondary Role? 

    1) Most definitely! Strategy trumps action every time for me.

    2) Primary.

    Unfortunately, MMOs today are not made for this kind of play. It slows things down too much and players can't rip through masses of mobs like they want in their 30 minutes of "play time."

    Crowd Control is gone from new MMOs, never to return. I wonder if Pantheon or some of the other "old school feel" MMOs coming up (possibly) will bring it back?
    Blaze_Rocker

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 1,677
    Eronakis said:

    Questions for Discussion

    1. Should CC be an integral asset to PVE Gameplay again? Why or why not?

    2. Should Hard CC be categorized in a Primary Role or Secondary Role? 

    Would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks for posting!
    1. It is an integral asset to PvE gameplay. Tanks routinely control crowds through aggro. For any other CC to matter tank aggro would have to be weak enough it could be escaped from often enough that having other means of containment would be needed, or the CC would have to be so strong that it obviates the need for tanks allowing for different party composition options.

    2. It depends how strong it is. If it is meant as a supplement as in the first approach I mentioned above it could be a secondary role. If it is meant as a new option for party composition it would have to be a primary role.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,455
    Long vs. short duration is what it's all about. All of those CC effects still exist in one form or another in modern games but where they used to last for 60 seconds or more in some cases they are 3-10 second duration at most these days. They are also typically done as side effects of something else rather than their own separate thing now: it's damage + root or damage + stun, etc.

    I don't see those old minute long CC abilities returning nor classes that did very little other than manage CC because that only makes sense in 2-5 minute fights and no one is designing fights like that any more except for the rare dungeon/raid boss fight or the KS games doing it to be deliberately retro.
    AlBQuirky
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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 604
    edited June 2019
    Mendel said:
    CC is too binary, especially the EQ1 mez.   I'd be happy to see another form of CC that isn't such a succeed/fail, but I really don't need to see it as a major element again.  My first character was an Enchanter; I'm mezzed out.

    The idea I always wanted to see was the knockdown as a form of crowd control.  Knock the enemy down and grapple with them.  Hold them down, fight to take their weapon from them.  Or have the fat kid sit on him.  Either way, there's an opponent out of the fight at the expense of one of your side's members.  As soon as the friend stops paying attention, or the opponent gets loose, the opponent will rejoin the fight.  That's far less predictable combat situation than the 30s or 45s spell duration.

    I imagine any form of cc in the future in an AAA mmorpg will most likely be the quick casting kind that you can forget about for the length of the fight, and most of what you do is returning to the core gameplay, like dps, healing, tanking, or support (buffing/debuffing). Far as it goes in most AAA, you'll most likely be doing dps. And that's the sad part. DPS defines them too much. It has dumbed it down.

    So what's hte benefit of having CC if it's only ever going to be a small part of what YOU do in a fight. That's what's sad. It'd amount to click-and-forget gameplay. Like an afterthought.

    It's not shiny, err iconic, like damage dealing.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    Eronakis
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,093
    CC should lead to making decisions on when to use them instead of being used all the time. Long duration CC leads to poor encounter design since devs add monsters just to eat up player CC and that's why it mostly went away. Typically what happens is that you pull and then you immediately CC 1-2 targets that can be ignored for a while.

    If a CC only lasts for 5-10 seconds on a 45-60 seconds cooldown players have to make a decision on when its appropriate to use their CC skills.





    AlBQuirkyBlaze_Rocker
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,539
    I like the CC mechanic in games.The main problem i see with CC in PvE is that mobs are dumb and can be cheesed in a group taking turns with CC. Most games i've seen make bosses completely immune to CC so they are artificially more difficult (or annoying). I like how in GW2 you have to remove the boss' defense in order to use any CC before he recovers his defense bar, but it's still not a complete system.

    I'm not sure what would be the best way to implement CC in PvE that doesn't remove the challenge but still is useful.
    AlBQuirky




  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    immodium said:
    I think CC skills should be there if you're finding the content tough.

    That's why its not needed anymore as the encounters you come across are pretty mindless.

    I also think it should be a skill all classes possess. Not a fan of dedicated CC classes.
    Why are you not a fan of dedicated CC classes? Can you elaborate and give a few reasons why?
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    AlBQuirky said:
    Eronakis said:
    Questions for Discussion

    1. Should CC be an integral asset to PVE Gameplay again? Why or why not?

    2. Should Hard CC be categorized in a Primary Role or Secondary Role? 

    1) Most definitely! Strategy trumps action every time for me.

    2) Primary.

    Unfortunately, MMOs today are not made for this kind of play. It slows things down too much and players can't rip through masses of mobs like they want in their 30 minutes of "play time."

    Crowd Control is gone from new MMOs, never to return. I wonder if Pantheon or some of the other "old school feel" MMOs coming up (possibly) will bring it back?


    Pantheon has already stated that CC will be a primary role in their game.

    I do believe there is a market for this sort of mmorpg. CC brings a great component in a PVE core gameplay.
    AlBQuirky
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    Eronakis said:

    Questions for Discussion

    1. Should CC be an integral asset to PVE Gameplay again? Why or why not?

    2. Should Hard CC be categorized in a Primary Role or Secondary Role? 

    Would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks for posting!
    1. It is an integral asset to PvE gameplay. Tanks routinely control crowds through aggro. For any other CC to matter tank aggro would have to be weak enough it could be escaped from often enough that having other means of containment would be needed, or the CC would have to be so strong that it obviates the need for tanks allowing for different party composition options.

    2. It depends how strong it is. If it is meant as a supplement as in the first approach I mentioned above it could be a secondary role. If it is meant as a new option for party composition it would have to be a primary role.
    That is actually an interesting way to put it and glad someone can see that 'tanks' are typically a line of CC. Just how you approach that CC is different. For a core pve system I am considering, there will be multiple "tanks" and the tank role has been reinvented and reproached. (There is a way to reinvent the trinity gameplay model and still keep the trinity of roles in tact).

    If you had a Discord, I feel like you may have a mind set to give some feedback on a new trinity system I am designing. Typically do text chats on there though.
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    Shaigh said:
    CC should lead to making decisions on when to use them instead of being used all the time. Long duration CC leads to poor encounter design since devs add monsters just to eat up player CC and that's why it mostly went away. Typically what happens is that you pull and then you immediately CC 1-2 targets that can be ignored for a while.

    If a CC only lasts for 5-10 seconds on a 45-60 seconds cooldown players have to make a decision on when its appropriate to use their CC skills.



    I think it depends on the initial core gameplay. If its a traditional trinity gameplay model, yes and no. To me, CC in Everquest was done about right. CC was there to help alleviate chaos. It can also add chaos if the Enchanter/Bard wasn't watching their CC'd target. Sometimes a CC target can break mid mez. I think HARD CC should be there at either a primary or secondary level. But of course with not being stable. That variable is dependent on NPC/Race and NPC/Class and the environment. 
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    I like the CC mechanic in games.The main problem i see with CC in PvE is that mobs are dumb and can be cheesed in a group taking turns with CC. Most games i've seen make bosses completely immune to CC so they are artificially more difficult (or annoying). I like how in GW2 you have to remove the boss' defense in order to use any CC before he recovers his defense bar, but it's still not a complete system.

    I'm not sure what would be the best way to implement CC in PvE that doesn't remove the challenge but still is useful.
    That would depend on NPC AI. Current NPC AI in mmo's is very one dimensional. They run 1-3 conditional scripts. The NPC AI Has to become robust to make CC interesting and that NPC AI has to correspond with a reinvention of the approach to the trinity gameplay model.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,202
    I'm guessing Pantheon must have CC? It plays alot like EQ, judging by the videos, and with slow kills I dont imagine adds are a good thing.
    AlBQuirky
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Good topic, I just wanted to say that if the OP would have said PVP instead of PVE, this whole thread would be covered with snot, spittle and tears.  :D
    Vermillion_RaventhalAlBQuirkyEronakis
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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,132
    Good topic, I just wanted to say that if the OP would have said PVP instead of PVE, this whole thread would be covered with snot, spittle and tears.  :D
    Yeah nobody wants mez stand offs where the first mass mez wins and has to standby while teammates are killed one by one.  
    AlBQuirky
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    Good topic, I just wanted to say that if the OP would have said PVP instead of PVE, this whole thread would be covered with snot, spittle and tears.  :D
    That's why I distinguished for PVE only. Most players/devs don't comprehend you have to have a different philosophy when considering CC abilities and the distribution of CC abilities. 

    Current retail WoW has no conception of this because CC among other utilities are mass distributed. Which is a real bad idea and can break class balance.
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,901
    edited June 2019
    Bosses these days are too epic for CC to be a thing.

    Essentially MMORPG devs have chosen a story path of constantly escalating stakes.  And that boss being even weakened by one skill, goes against that world ending threat idea.
    ___ 

    Though if you really want to explore CC you could look at any Iron Realms game.  Essentially enemy health isn't your first priority,  instead you care about keeping your healing balances open and disabling all of your enemies.   Eventually ending in one person being disabled before the kill is taken .
    Post edited by anemo on

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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 604
    edited September 2020
    immodium said:
    I think CC skills should be there if you're finding the content tough.

    That's why its not needed anymore as the encounters you come across are pretty mindless.

    I also think it should be a skill all classes possess. Not a fan of dedicated CC classes.

    I was palying EQ again and got to think about CC because I'm playing a ranger (I'm playing in old zones where there're lots of wnadeing adds and i'm using snare and etc). Started remembering just how much I liked that  class--it being a hybrid melee/caster. I saw this thread and forgot I'd been here before. Saw your post and immediately it resonated with me.

    Mostly I tink it's just how "tight" a game is. By that I mean how incorrect you have to be before you lose. Extremely tight games require extremely optimal decision making to win--and usually extreme patience and/or coordination with others. It seems like many games reduce the tightness to attract gamers, so that it's harder to lose. This is what's popular I think. The only metric  then is how long you play--it's accessible esp. with cash shop to permit people with less time to speed up experience. In some respects it's dumbing down, but there's more going on than just that. Easier games are easier to incorporate with RL. They  demand less, so it's easyier to do something IRL in parellel. They're less stressful because the bar is lower. I think they're also more supportive of social environments--i'm thinking of how eq players would sometimes get angry with each other or themselves because someone wasn't playing well somehow and in turn spend more time angry than part of the community. Maybe this is tied to how, in general, tighter games are more stressful.

    i think some moder nmmorpgs don't recieve credit for thinsg they do right. I don't wan to speak out my a**. It's how thigns work together in a game, not just the amount of peices. Easy games can still have a lot to do, it's just more spaced out and relaxed. it's not exaggerated to say the millions of dollars budgeted to popular games goes a long ways to enabling them to do things smaller budgets can't.

    meanwhile I'll go back to seeking out unpopular things and old style game design just because... well...



    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 604
    edited September 2020
    Albatroes said:
    That is pretty unfortunate. Hell even doing M+10 or higher in wow, you rarely use CC. I do want it baked back into games again simply because it does require you to pay attention, which is enough. I know some people say 'mildly' or something like that but keep in mind that games are designed right now with pretty much 100% success which honestly inspires no one to play past the bare minimum. You look at stuff like LFR in WoW or 24man 'raids' in FFXIV, half the people can just afk on the first week of it being out for them and still clear without a problem. I get that these things exist for people who claim to not have enough time, but that doesn't excuse it being dumbed down. Even the dumbest of stuff in normal mode raids in wow are made even dumber for lfr, like normal may have you keeping 2 bosses separated where as it wont matter in lfr because the 'enhancing' buff or whatever the bosses have are removed for that mode. As for XIV, 'raids' are a shell of themselves as they once were in 2.X which is pretty sad.

    I tihnk most gmaers just don't like the stress of aloways being on the b rink of losing. For me it's the opposite. I need the risk and loss, not just the aesthetic threat. It's risk/reward for me. But for many players it's just how much reward and how much strategy? That's strange to me. The concept of actual risk with penalties for losing is not in the equation for them. Without some kind of loss ther'es no real risk. And of course industry insiders found it profitable ot make games comfortable.

    I don't think CC is what necessarily makes a game demanding on attention. It really could be anything that makes a game demanding.  MMORPGs that appeal to mainstream audeinces remove a lot of things, not just cc, to make the game environment more relaxed, forgiving and real-life  friendly. The one thing they don't relax their hold on however is your wallet...

    For me mmorpgs are less about being feeling good and more about fighting my own battles nad feeling moments of satifaction when i figure something out, mixed with frustration, or whne i make a new memory somehere. I'm well aware there're many players with more things and more intellignece than me. I don't expect tob e a hero and to have everything or to always win or always have good gear no matter my effort or decision or frsutration. I expect to lose and feel pain. I expect unfairness. Otehrwise it feels too fake and not worth my time.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    AlBQuirky
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