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Are mmorpgs boring?

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,532
    bcbully said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    bcbully said:
    PvE is terrible. How the hell people do the same scripted shit over and over, AND then ask for the same scripted shut in another game is beyond me.
    I had just read Cameltosis's post, and that's what struck me too. 
    I guess the "sugar hit" is the draw. 
    Not really, for me. It's more about control of my personal environment. It's also why I dislike Raiding: Chaos is the name of the  game.

    I do appreciate the danger, but when massively multiplayer is the name of the game, that's too much chaos for me and is not even close to fun.

    PvE doesn't have to be scripted, but more often than not, that's what we get (thanks WoW). Just like bcbully, , it's hard for me to imagine players actually enjoying chaos on a massively multiplayer level. It's just too much constant attention for my idea of fun. Besides, I have no need to "prove my manhood" like bcbully seems to in PvP ;)
    Hahah Haaa I prove my manhood by satisfying my woman and the chick she picks.

    PvP is how I relax.
    You must be a great cook.

    Kyleran[Deleted User]AlBQuirkymuthax
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,813
    "ArcheAge - The game was in my opinion a masterpiece, ruined by greed ( Only managed to get 2-3 years out of it before I just couldn't take the P2W anymore )"

    I always wondered if I didn't miss something here.....To me the game was mediocre and nothing out of the ordinary, but when I read other players comments on it I wondered if I played the same game.
    AlBQuirkymuthaxbcbully
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,805
    muthax said:
    27 hours in New World so far, not bored yet...
    Gonna have to slow down a bit !
    I don't know what I will do when the 5th comes

    I'm drinking mine. lol
    AlBQuirkybcbully

    Once upon a time....

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,952
    As others have said, I also enjoy doing the leveling stories for the first time.  But I can't be arsed to participate in end game activities.  I don't think I'm alone in mainly soloing in them and moving on to another game. 

    If any MMO had the right pieces to break the mold over time it was WOW.  But they were too afraid of losing subs so they kept copy pasting story ideas and reused tons of zone assets in new expacs.  That game very rarely took people out of their comfort level or advanced the genre.

    I've held for a while that it would probably take an amazing VR title to revitalize the genre, but I'm not so sure any more.  Truly dynamic worlds, which requires amazing AI, where each server can end up completely different might work.  But the advances of, and investment into, AI has been pretty crummy honestly.  Even in genres that depend on them like strategy games.
    AlBQuirkyMendel
  • Kuroi_TaigaKuroi_Taiga Member UncommonPosts: 29
    edited September 2020
    mmorpgs now are boring cause devs made it boring cause players got lazy.

    lazy players are a majority and devs just want money, so they make games according to it. look at New World, it was a very great chance for a good mmorpg and amazon downgraded it to a themepark clone with not even that much themepark features.

    why? cause the most of players whined about the game being to harsh, so they dumbed it down and now all that "lazy" players are playing it, giving money to amazon even tho they will likely quit in 3-4 months as soon as they maxed everything possible once the game gets released.

    we will never have a new UO-like experience, and i suffer about it everytime i look for some new MMO (Mortal Online 2 will help i hope, just like its prequel did)

    moreover people now are too spread between many apps like discord, messenger etc, back in the days we just had ICQ at max.
    then it was 100% in-game chat, it was way better cause you had a chance to both play and get to know people.
    nowadays people are stuck in discord and will login if you look for them, and it sucks.


    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,805
    As others have said, I also enjoy doing the leveling stories for the first time.  But I can't be arsed to participate in end game activities.  I don't think I'm alone in mainly soloing in them and moving on to another game. 

    If any MMO had the right pieces to break the mold over time it was WOW.  But they were too afraid of losing subs so they kept copy pasting story ideas and reused tons of zone assets in new expacs.  That game very rarely took people out of their comfort level or advanced the genre.

    I've held for a while that it would probably take an amazing VR title to revitalize the genre, but I'm not so sure any more.  Truly dynamic worlds, which requires amazing AI, where each server can end up completely different might work.  But the advances of, and investment into, AI has been pretty crummy honestly.  Even in genres that depend on them like strategy games.
    There's a huge amount of processing power used for all that flash and explosions and effects.
    Way too much for my taste. 

    Take that, leave the game without all that "world ending devastation" every second, and you have a whole lot of processing power for a very dynamic game with AI to go along with it. 

    Raph Koster mentioned this in one of his interviews, and I thought that was pretty exciting. Also, he led the team that used some kind of world rendering system that replaced the need to download so much "world". That and other things lend faith in his capabilities. He's, perhaps, the best technical creator in the business. He's got such a clear head about the logic of it all. 

    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,805
    mmorpgs now are boring cause devs made it boring cause players got lazy.

    lazy players are a majority and devs just want money, so they make games according to it. look at New World, it was a very great chance for a good mmorpg and amazon downgraded it to a themepark clone with not even that much themepark features.

    why? cause the most of players whined about the game being to harsh, so they dumbed it down and now all that "lazy" players are playing it, giving money to amazon even tho they will likely quit in 3-4 months as soon as they maxed everything possible once the game gets released.

    we will never have a new UO-like experience, and i suffer about it everytime i look for some new MMO (Mortal Online 2 will help i hope, just like its prequel did)

    moreover people now are too spread between many apps like discord, messenger etc, back in the days we just had ICQ at max.
    then it was 100% in-game chat, it was way better cause you had a chance to both play and get to know people.
    nowadays people are stuck in discord and will login if you look for them, and it sucks.


    If I understand you correctly, it seems to me that you want a game where players want to log in every chance they get. 
    There's so much that's left off the table in modern games. That means there's plenty to attract them, that they haven't seen yet (or since years ago, in some cases). 
    Games have been far too one dimentional. Huge drops from UO, EQ, and AC. 

    AlBQuirkyKuroi_Taiga

    Once upon a time....

  • xpsyncxpsync Member EpicPosts: 1,854
    edited September 2020
    tzervo said:
    As others have said, I also enjoy doing the leveling stories for the first time.  But I can't be arsed to participate in end game activities.  I don't think I'm alone in mainly soloing in them and moving on to another game.  
    I was always curious why people that play MMORPG's solo and single-playthrough don't opt for single player/co-op RPGs.

    I understand people that go beyond the story, even solo, opt for an MMORPG for the social ambience. I assume you could say the same for story playthrough soloers but I find this advantage weaker compared to a better story or systems that a single player MMORPG can provide.

    I don't think there is one single answer to why people will 100% (emphatically at times) solo a multiplayer game.

    I've been down both roads, and find i'm usually somewhere in the middle.

    The one attractive reason for a solo player is that, you're not alone. I know right. They want to be alone, but not interact or play with anyone? Really they are not alone there are other players around, there is chat, active auction house, there is dynamic play and slight feeling of anything can happen.

    Some players can be unequivocally dedicated, i mean this made zero sense to me and still doesn't to this day, but was in EQ2 (golden era) and needed chomper part of foomby's stolen goods, he was solo'able, under con a real challenge if not geared well, survivability at con would be so much better with another player, so i head on down to Chomper's pond and there is another player there camping old chomp.

    No problem send tell, invite and we got this. Promptly Rejected!!! WTF? Haha guy probably clicked cancel by accident, that's cool i'll send again. Sent, and wait, and wait, and wait... omg really. So i canceled and sent again, maybe i made a typo, sent, wait about a minute and then canceled again.

    Then i get a tell.

    I've only been camping xx amount of hours but you go ahead and take it.

    OK WTF? are you talking about?

    At least the girl/guy engaged in convo, i'm like why not group for the kill credit, NOPE, they solo it all, anything they can't they don't, mmorpg were brutally difficult back then comparatively from today's versions, for those unaware.

    So i be like just group ffs, this thing gonna spawn eventually, i'd like this resolved before that time obv, one good thing with the two of us there people would come up and take off, they figured it's not worth competing for for first strike, anyway i dunno super long time passes, I'd been trying to tell this person just group, they are alike no, you go ahead(as in me) i'm like no f'ing way you were here first.

    Chomper pops. I refuse to strike first. Take it i tell them. No they said they like to be alone and solo everything, i'm like f off, just group or take it ffs, concern is growing as we'd been there for hour(s) and now Chomp's is open season with the two of us just standing there looking stupid, they on the weedy part of the shore i'm on the little dock.

    The solo player starts to leave, i'm like please just group, they replied it's ok gotta go anyway, so i strike fast af, battling chomps for several minutes, the solo person comes back and sits on the dock and watches, omg really, finally as i almost have chomp near death i send on a final group invite for kill cred, rejected.

    Anyway, they send tell, Grats!!! like OMG thanks but you could have just grouped ffs. Anyway i'm heading out and there they are camping it all over again.

    There you go a hard core solo player, but our encounter is something no single player game will ever give, random events, random encounter, and never really alone.
    AlBQuirky
    My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022

    Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)

    Currently Playing; Dragonflight and SWG:L
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,952
    tzervo said:
    As others have said, I also enjoy doing the leveling stories for the first time.  But I can't be arsed to participate in end game activities.  I don't think I'm alone in mainly soloing in them and moving on to another game.  
    I was always curious why people that play MMORPG's solo and single-playthrough don't opt for single player/co-op RPGs.

    I understand people that go beyond the story, even solo, opt for an MMORPG for the social ambience. I assume you could say the same for story playthrough soloers but I find this advantage weaker compared to a better story or systems that a single player MMORPG can provide.

    Well I just replayed Skyrim before starting ESO.  But there is one big reason why I prefer soloing MMOs rather than solo RPGs.  I like chat in RPGs.  And it's nice to be able to ask questions while playing.  So I get the best of both worlds in that I can go wherever the hell I want and do what I want, but also not feel like I'm all alone.

    MMOs also allow you the option to later participate in endgame activities if you choose to. 

    I also almost solely play ladder based ARPGs rather than soloing offline.  And I'm far from the only one to do so.  I like the option of socializing and grouping when I feel like it.
    [Deleted User]UngoodAlBQuirky
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member EpicPosts: 5,952
    edited September 2020
    I should also mention that if you are a big fan of an IP, there aren't tons of options for solo RPGs within them.  And so it makes games like WOW, SWTOR, LOTRO and even ESO(considering how old the single player titles are) more attractive to soloers.

    Games within a brand new IP are a much tougher sell for me.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirky
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,813
    tzervo said:
    As others have said, I also enjoy doing the leveling stories for the first time.  But I can't be arsed to participate in end game activities.  I don't think I'm alone in mainly soloing in them and moving on to another game.  
    I was always curious why people that play MMORPG's solo and single-playthrough don't opt for single player/co-op RPGs.

    I understand people that go beyond the story, even solo, opt for an MMORPG for the social ambience. I assume you could say the same for story playthrough soloers but I find this advantage weaker compared to a better story or systems that a single player MMORPG can provide.

    I think people like having other people around and to chat occasionally. It's nice to have others to sell your wares to, but when it comes to actually playing with them, then it's a big NO.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirky
  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 228
    I don't think it's possible to recapture the magic you felt playing your first MMO.  For me it was also EQ and nothing else has compared nor do I expect anything to ever compare to it.  I felt a smaller amount of it with WoW circa 2004, but now WoW has stifled all innovation in the genre and there's no more magic to be found.
    AmatheAlBQuirkyMendel
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,805
    I don't think it's possible to recapture the magic you felt playing your first MMO.  For me it was also EQ and nothing else has compared nor do I expect anything to ever compare to it.  I felt a smaller amount of it with WoW circa 2004, but now WoW has stifled all innovation in the genre and there's no more magic to be found.
    Of course it's possible. 
    Just: 
    - remove all the auto-interactions so players interact themselves, 
    - design multiple means of interactions, 
    - make interaction with others very beneficial in all ways, not just grouping in one-off "quests", 
    - and for God's sake, remove these wildly crazy power gaps so players aren't auto-divided and separated almost at birth. 

    Once players are no longer separated by the hypnotic gaze of crazy Power Gaps, and Guilds with strong social ties are the norm, then you can also have guild interactions, alliances, and co-ops by players in a mutually beneficial way, too. 

    Enough of this "Lord Of The Flies" design. Once you make interactions beneficial (and interesting), you'll see a whole different attitude from most players. 
    AlBQuirkyGdemamiCuddleheart

    Once upon a time....

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,805
    edited September 2020
    Hum, sorry, but huge "power gaps" already existed in Everquest, it's the game which started that model.
    I'm not sure of your point (other than it's a fact). I've said that for years.

    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Hum, sorry, but huge "power gaps" already existed in Everquest, it's the game which started that model.

    For me, that's fine and dandy. I'm certainly not in the "everyone is equal/the same" camp, as many here are. I enjoy differences and especially diversity. Thus what you choose matters, like race or class.

    It may be because I started with EQ, but more than likely because I played TTRPGs before MMORPGs.

    This is why I don't bitch and moan when some class is "better than" (PvP) mine or if some class gets abilities I don't (PvE). RPGs, for me are about the differences and how to work together.

    Yet I understand fully why most players want "total freedom" (no classes) and bland equality (my term). Not saying you do, but your comment seems to say power gaps are bad.

    Power gaps are great, in my opinion. You "used" to meet so many new and different people with them in place as the hardcore players level past you and new players catch up to you. It's usually players who got left behind that complain about them and coined the term "no lifers."

    GdemamiIselinphoenixfire2

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • CuddleheartCuddleheart Member UncommonPosts: 391
    I don't think it's possible to recapture the magic you felt playing your first MMO.  For me it was also EQ and nothing else has compared nor do I expect anything to ever compare to it.  I felt a smaller amount of it with WoW circa 2004, but now WoW has stifled all innovation in the genre and there's no more magic to be found.
    Of course it's possible. 
    Just: 
    - remove all the auto-interactions so players interact themselves, 
    - design multiple means of interactions, 
    - make interaction with others very beneficial in all ways, not just grouping in one-off "quests", 
    - and for God's sake, remove these wildly crazy power gaps so players aren't auto-divided and separated almost at birth. 

    Once players are no longer separated by the hypnotic gaze of crazy Power Gaps, and Guilds with strong social ties are the norm, then you can also have guild interactions, alliances, and co-ops by players in a mutually beneficial way, too. 

    Enough of this "Lord Of The Flies" design. Once you make interactions beneficial (and interesting), you'll see a whole different attitude from most players. 

    You make some good points.  In retrospect, most MMOs weren't really great games.  In a lot of ways, games like EQ were more like AOL chat rooms with an RPG over it.  I believe that's one reason a lot of old MMO devs are failing in later projects.  They don't see that it was the tight knit communities more than their "genius" game design that made early MMOs great.  I'm not saying they weren't deep games doing innovative things - especially for the time, but it really was the people that made that era so much fun!

    Give me cool people, some satisfying gameplay loops, and a reason to do it together and I'm happy any day.
    AlBQuirkyUngoodAmarantharGdemami
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,805
    I don't think it's possible to recapture the magic you felt playing your first MMO.  For me it was also EQ and nothing else has compared nor do I expect anything to ever compare to it.  I felt a smaller amount of it with WoW circa 2004, but now WoW has stifled all innovation in the genre and there's no more magic to be found.
    Of course it's possible. 
    Just: 
    - remove all the auto-interactions so players interact themselves, 
    - design multiple means of interactions, 
    - make interaction with others very beneficial in all ways, not just grouping in one-off "quests", 
    - and for God's sake, remove these wildly crazy power gaps so players aren't auto-divided and separated almost at birth. 

    Once players are no longer separated by the hypnotic gaze of crazy Power Gaps, and Guilds with strong social ties are the norm, then you can also have guild interactions, alliances, and co-ops by players in a mutually beneficial way, too. 

    Enough of this "Lord Of The Flies" design. Once you make interactions beneficial (and interesting), you'll see a whole different attitude from most players. 

    You make some good points.  In retrospect, most MMOs weren't really great games.  In a lot of ways, games like EQ were more like AOL chat rooms with an RPG over it.  I believe that's one reason a lot of old MMO devs are failing in later projects.  They don't see that it was the tight knit communities more than their "genius" game design that made early MMOs great.  I'm not saying they weren't deep games doing innovative things - especially for the time, but it really was the people that made that era so much fun!

    Give me cool people, some satisfying gameplay loops, and a reason to do it together and I'm happy any day.
    There's good and bad in every game. 
    But the biggest "bad" of them all is not designing a game where players in a Massively Multiplayer world can stay together and do things as a consistent unit. 
    And the more things players can do together, as a consistent group that feels a kinship/fellowship, the better. 


    GdemamiAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    The Golden Rule of MMO Development:

    "Most MMO Developers dont know or understand what makes certain MMOs and their features Successful or Failure. They simply take random concepts and program them into a playable experience and wait for the results."
    GdemamiAlBQuirky

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
    remsleep said:
    This is my personal experience - once I hit end game and repetition/grind begins - fun drops off rapidly (well below initial fun while experiencing new content)




    YMMV
    Endgame only exist in Level Based MMOs. 

    Without the Levels, that illusion wont be there. Since in reality, nothing really changes between Endgame and Level Grind. Just one have a actual number on your avatar that goes up while doing the same thing, while the other you do the same exact things you did leveling up, but no number to go up and show change directly.


    We need more Levelless MMORPGS with new forms of Progression focused gameplay on other things than just personal character progression. 
    AmarantharGdemamiAlBQuirky

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,805
    remsleep said:
    This is my personal experience - once I hit end game and repetition/grind begins - fun drops off rapidly (well below initial fun while experiencing new content)




    YMMV
    Endgame only exist in Level Based MMOs. 

    Without the Levels, that illusion wont be there. Since in reality, nothing really changes between Endgame and Level Grind. Just one have a actual number on your avatar that goes up while doing the same thing, while the other you do the same exact things you did leveling up, but no number to go up and show change directly.


    We need more Levelless MMORPGS with new forms of Progression focused gameplay on other things than just personal character progression. 
    I just want to point out that there are various means of progression, levels are just one. But no matter how you slice it, the characters still get more powerful with progression. 

    The big question is to what degree. 
    Even with levels and classes, there can be any degree of progression that the game Devs decide on. 
    That can be to a very large degree (many "Clones" do this), or a very small degree, or anything in between. 
    The same can be pointed out about "Skill Based" games. 

    The whole point is that, with any system, it's how the DEGREE of progression affects Player Interactions; guilds, friends, trade, etc., in long term social cohesion. 
    GdemamiAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

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