This may seem an odd question, since I have played many mmorpgs and thought I enjoyed them.
But did I?
Or did I just jump on a progression treadmill and keep going because it was vaguely satisfying?
What I most wanted was the sense of awe and wonder I found in EQ. Every game had some of that, but increasingly less over time.
Mostly I ended up doing a bunch of tasks, expecting the fun would come later when I was higher level. And it mostly never did.
I am having some self doubt. I need a new and better fix.
Good question, and this line of thinking is the start of the path to understanding what games really are and what makes them great (fun) or crap (boring).
Humans are pattern matching machines.
It is how we are wired, and we're bloody good at it. We seek patterns in everything we do, we test those patterns by pushing the boundaries, eventually seeking optimisation of those patterns. Eventually, we "grok" those patterns, which means that we've learnt them so well that processing those patterns becomes automatic.
Easiest example to give is learning to drive. when we first step into a car, it requires all of our concentration to make our hands and feet move properly, to pay attention to the road and to pick out the relevant details so that we go where we want and don't crash. However, give it a few days/weeks/months, and we'll have grokked driving and we'll just go into autopilot. I'm sure we've all had that experience where we suddenly arrive at our destination and you can't remember driving the last few miles: you've learnt the patterns of driving so well that it requires no effort at all.
The same applies to computer games.
We naturally search out the patterns within a game: learning the world, the story, the mechanics etc. The learning process, i.e. pattern matching, is what provides the fun, it's what causes the brain to release all those lovely drugs. Given that games are based on formal systems, the patterns are relatively easy / obvious to spot.
Optimisation is also a natural part of pattern matching, it's an evolutionary survival trait. Our desire to be the best hunter, the best farmer, the best leader etc is all in our best interests, and we get there by understanding and optimising the patterns we see in the world around us. the same happens in gaming, often against the devs wishes: our desire to be the best leads us to exploits and cheats, or bypassing quests to grind mobs because it happens to be the most optimal.
If the patterns present are too far outside of what we already know, then they can come across as just "noise". the patterns are there, but they're too far outside what we know that we simply cannot recognise them. "Too hard" or "Too complicated" or "Couldn't be bothered to learn" are the sorts of complaints you'll hear from gamers when the patterns are too far outside their experiences.
Likewise, if the patterns are the same, or very similar, to what we already know, then it won't take us long at all to master (grok) them, after which we get bored. In a lot of cases, if we've grokked a pattern too well then we won't even bother with a game in the first place if we can recognise those patterns from trailers and reviews. "Too easy", "waste of time", "i don't find that fun" are common gamer complaints when they recognise patterns they've already mastered.
This means that as long-time gamers with 100s / 1000s of games under our belt, we've seen nearly all these patterns before. Nearly all the mechanics in a game, we've probably seen before, either in video games or perhaps board games. We've already mastered it in the past, so the new game only takes a fraction of the time to learn, master and get bored of compared to a newbie. Based on this line of thinking, it is therefore inevitable that all games will eventually become boring.
When MMOs first launched, they offered players brand new patterns to learn and master: cooperation and competition with other real players in a roleplaying environment. This is exciting! This is fun! This is the reason why, for most of us, our first MMO is considered our favourite: it's because this is when we first had to learn new patterns, therefore it is when we had the most fun.
Finally, the best patterns are those that make us question and learn something about ourselves, just as with all art forms. We want patterns that we can mostly recognise, but with enough variation to make us question and learn something new.
So, what are the underlying lessons in games?
Sadly, games are still mostly very primative in what they are trying to teach. Aiming, jumping, the importance of practice, power, social status, resource management etc.
Most of these lessons tap into the primative caveman part of our brain, which is why we enjoy them, but the lessons aren't exactly relevant in todays society. Nearly all RPGs teach us that the best way to get what we want is to exercise physical power over other people. A perfect lesson for our tribal routes, but a terrible lesson for modern day societies.
MMOs have the opportunity to teach us some really useful lessons, like co-operation and leadership. Certainly, this is part of the reason why I loved LotRO so much: I learned soooo much about myself when i took on raid leading and guild leading. Leading other people just wasn't something I'd had a chance to do in real life, but an online game gave me that opportunity to learn, practice, improve, with the added benefits of minimal consequences. These were then skills that i transferred into real life, so when i found myself in charge of a software team, I'd already had years of practice in mmos about how to lead people, how to motivate them etc.
They are boring solo...if you have friends to play with they can be quite fun. The community makes the game I found. That's why I never thought any of the MMOs in the last 16 years have been worth a darn.
They can be boring with friends too sometimes.
Played a PvP game where my guild dominated the server and it made the game really boring- I lasted for 2 weeks after that but there was nothing to do any nobody to fight - we had all end game areas on lockdown.
If there is no challenge left, friends or no friends - the problem remains
So imo - if the game is truly void of anything to do - community won't last to make it fun - people leave in masses if there is no challenge left
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Lots of really good answers throughout this thread, many of which coincide with my opinion that MMORPGs haven't really progressed very far at all.
We've had the baby rattle of the infancy of the genre, but haven't grown into the Tonka truck stage. Everyone wants to praise the rattles they had and remember how fun they were. The rattle was fun, it was enjoyable. So developers are trying to recapture that 'rattle' feeling without ever attempting to define how good the Tonka truck experience could be. Heaven forbid that developers should start thinking about the Hot Wheels phase of the game! That doesn't make money yet.
Focusing on the rattle stage creates a deja vu experience, which leads to boredom. You wonder why I'm so disappointed with developers, and think many of the projects in development are going to under-perform? That's why.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
PvE is terrible. How the hell people do the same scripted shit over and over, AND then ask for the same scripted shut in another game is beyond me.
YAH! and you know what is totally fucking stupid, is when people want that scripted PvE shit in their PvP game.
Like what kind of moronic dumbass shit is that.
Preach!
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
PvE is terrible. How the hell people do the same scripted shit over and over, AND then ask for the same scripted shut in another game is beyond me.
I had just read Cameltosis's post, and that's what struck me too. I guess the "sugar hit" is the draw.
Not really, for me. It's more about control of my personal environment. It's also why I dislike Raiding: Chaos is the name of the game.
I do appreciate the danger, but when massively multiplayer is the name of the game, that's too much chaos for me and is not even close to fun.
PvE doesn't have to be scripted, but more often than not, that's what we get (thanks WoW). Just like bcbully, , it's hard for me to imagine players actually enjoying chaos on a massively multiplayer level. It's just too much constant attention for my idea of fun. Besides, I have no need to "prove my manhood" like bcbully seems to in PvP
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't think MMOs are boring, but the current model for building an MMO is unsustainable and nobody ever gets to fully enjoy a game for their tastes anymore. Dual Universe is a great example - every MMO feels like it has to be designed for millions of players to send 12 hours a day playing. There's not enough time or gamers to support them all. In the late 90s-early 2000s, people would play a few hundred-player mmos that were tailored very specifically to tastes.
They were all sustainable- even with small amount of mmo players. Better yet, they had great social systems.
Now entire design philosophies of games break down when there's less than hundreds of thousands of players. Most sandbox games are designed in a way where it's almost not worth playing if you can't play every day. I can make real money 8-10 hours 5 days a week...I can spend less time(and money) training for a NAGA BJJ tournament than I would to compete in Archeage.
This has been a 2TP post, no walls of text here. Just an answer. ;-)
Not much of an answer, really, with zero elaboration...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
PvE is terrible. How the hell people do the same scripted shit over and over, AND then ask for the same scripted shut in another game is beyond me.
I had just read Cameltosis's post, and that's what struck me too. I guess the "sugar hit" is the draw.
Thanks for reading, i know my walls of text can be a lot to get through!
The answer to bcbully's question is "comfort".
Playing games that you have already mastered (you understand the patterns) is comforting. For some players it is a power trip - being the master of something feels good - but for the majority of people it is simply that they find comfort in the familiar.
This is the exact same reason why pop music sells well, why millions of people are happy to veg out in front of the TV watching sitcoms that teach you things you already know, and why the most popular fiction books are typically about the same subjects, the same adventurers, and the same solutions we already know.
Nothing wrong with playing a game for comfort, as long as you are aware that it involves no personal growth and that playing for comfort is different to playing for fun. I personally play games for fun, but I do read books for comfort.
The leveling stage isn't boring to me but the end game is. Anyone that likes gaming should like the non blizard and non f2p version of leveling. If there was a game that did that in a modern and non insta gratification way then that's the game most PvE MMORPG players would like. Haven't seen one modern MMORPG which does that.
The leveling stage isn't boring to me but the end game is. Anyone that likes gaming should like the non blizard and non f2p version of leveling. If there was a game that did that in a modern and non insta gratification way then that's the game most PvE MMORPG players would like. Haven't seen one modern MMORPG which does that.
This is an important note to consider: End Game. Many players enjoy end game activities and I can understand why. They spent months progressing their character/s and now want to reap the benefits.
However, for me, "End Game" means just that: End of the Game. This is when I continue on with one of my "alts" or seek another MMORPG, depending on the fun I'm having.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Well, with offline games, I can play them for 3 months, then I have to stop, no matter how good they are.
With MMORPGs, I could play for years. The social aspect kept me motivated.
Are MMORPGs boring ? The game itself, sort of. In order to have a massive world, you cannot actually fill them with content as you can with a single player game. Necessarily it will be a bit more sparse. But of course you meet people and thats what keeps me going.
The leveling stage isn't boring to me but the end game is. Anyone that likes gaming should like the non blizard and non f2p version of leveling. If there was a game that did that in a modern and non insta gratification way then that's the game most PvE MMORPG players would like. Haven't seen one modern MMORPG which does that.
This is an important note to consider: End Game. Many players enjoy end game activities and I can understand why. They spent months progressing their character/s and now want to reap the benefits.
However, for me, "End Game" means just that: End of the Game. This is when I continue on with one of my "alts" or seek another MMORPG, depending on the fun I'm having.
I think most players look at "End Game" as the point by which they stop leveling.
GW2 Core, did a solid job to address this by making leveling fast and easy, so, that by the time you leveled, there was still vast swaths of the word to explore, there was still tons of things left to be done, in short, getting to "Max Level" was like finishing off the tutorial, and now it was time to go forth and experience the game.
That kind of approach I thought was a very nice way of dealing with the game, where "End Game" was vast and limitless as you wanted it to be.
Then of course they put in Fractals, and then Raids.. and made "End Game" this little narrow spot like all other games, and ruined the very thing that made the game amazing to start with. But I am sure some loved it, because it was a like all those other games they don't play any more.
Anyway, this is also why I like DDO, I can sit at max level, and do Epic/Legendary Raids, and just seek to augment and buff up my character, to acquire that best of the best of the best gear, that requires that I raid my weasley black guts out, or I can opt to Reincarnate, and play the game all over again, to enjoy the whole process of leveling my main again, now a bit stronger, and this time around maybe doing things on a higher difficulty, etc.
I guess it is what you make of it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If i had to pick a fav, leveling or end game, leveling wins, but not by a long shot, but the winner none the less.
I'm new so, grain of salt or whatever, and haven't played for a decade so...
When i capped in wow bfa, leveling wasn't really over but i was in what is considered end game.
There was still IL to level, azerite, a Cloak, the heart, all this leveling still going on, which tbh i loved, end game is packed with stuff to do. It was so much that i capped another toon from my alts and main'd that for some time too at end game.
But there is a limit, which is a personal limit of "ok i'm good" or you can just keep on going which i'm sure plenty do. For me it was that my main's were so f'ing broken, very high 90's azerite/heart, very high 400's il, capped cloak ofc.
To me it became pointless to become a minuscule more broken than i already am, but there is a point in there where it's so much fun becoming broken af, so much fun.
So that ends that, and got into capping out alts, learning new classes i've always found fun. However didn't run end game on them, 120 and done, to my surprise another class clicks and main'd that, nice discovery.
First few alts take or took so long as i didn't know go here do that, zero familiarity cata forward, which i love that learning the land phase, and after enjoy the pattern (read previously) phase as immensely as well. Tackle familiar territory with a unfamiliar class.
Then take swg:l oh man so good to be back, leveling up a storm, having a great old time and then such a drop that just leaves you hanging, leveling just ends.
Ummm, ok? alt time? gee i really don't know what to do or where to go?
Well in that game that is literally when the game kicks in, everything is end game, the entire game is end game and having the leveling at all sends such mixed signals. The end game is where all the fun is and the leveling part is pretty lame comparatively.
So can't say i'm an end game hater, when there is noticeable progression, and that is not exclusive to watching a bar fill up as in the case of SWG learning creature handler, birthing and raising 60 point, of just one of a plethora of things to do in that game.
In the case of wow more leveling systems rolling all at once works, you don't have to raid, M+, dungeon to progress them, but if what is visioned as end game running raids/M+ over and over and over again, and then over and over and over again, again,
Then, yeah no!
I will for a bit but it's not long before i say to myself "I'm good!".
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
The leveling stage isn't boring to me but the end game is. Anyone that likes gaming should like the non blizard and non f2p version of leveling. If there was a game that did that in a modern and non insta gratification way then that's the game most PvE MMORPG players would like. Haven't seen one modern MMORPG which does that.
Ah, now im the opposite way: I love endgame, but hate the leveling process. the reasons why I love endgame:
It is where mastery occurs. Before endgame, you never have a complete set of skills and your power vs content is too variable. When you hit endgame, you can finally learn how to play your character to it's maximum potential. This final learning and eventual mastery is a lot of fun.
It is where the players are. This is the massively multiplayer genre, its only unique selling point is being able to play with hundreds of other players at the same time. Yet, during the leveling process the community is segregated by levels, quests, factions and power. It's too hard to play together! At endgame, you can finally play with all those people, as you're all finally at the same point in the game.
It is where the challenge is. During to the massive differences in levels, power, gear, classes and player skill, the leveling process is usually trivial. Easy content leaves me bored very quickly. Additionally, there's usually little group content leveling up. At endgame, the devs can finally balance the content against our own power, because we've hit the top of the power curve. I like playing challenging content, its the only way to have proper fun, and endgame is the only place to find it.
Now, all the things I love about endgame don't have to belong only to endgame, they could exist during the "leveling" process. However, whilst RPGs continue to be built around vertical progression, endgame will remain the only place to find them. You might get lucky during leveling and find some challenging content, but it will not remain challenging for long because you'll out-level it. Likewise, if you level up with the pack, then you can probably find groups during the leveling process, but if you are late to the party, good luck finding people to play with!
PvE is terrible. How the hell people do the same scripted shit over and over, AND then ask for the same scripted shut in another game is beyond me.
I had just read Cameltosis's post, and that's what struck me too. I guess the "sugar hit" is the draw.
Thanks for reading, i know my walls of text can be a lot to get through!
The answer to bcbully's question is "comfort".
Playing games that you have already mastered (you understand the patterns) is comforting. For some players it is a power trip - being the master of something feels good - but for the majority of people it is simply that they find comfort in the familiar.
This is the exact same reason why pop music sells well, why millions of people are happy to veg out in front of the TV watching sitcoms that teach you things you already know, and why the most popular fiction books are typically about the same subjects, the same adventurers, and the same solutions we already know.
Nothing wrong with playing a game for comfort, as long as you are aware that it involves no personal growth and that playing for comfort is different to playing for fun. I personally play games for fun, but I do read books for comfort.
I've been trying to think of a way to say what I want to say about this, which I agree with by the way. But I'm afraid all I'll accomplish is to insult that type of player. And I don't really want to do that. I'm sure the majority of them are good people in RL.
But in the end, it's their right to choose, and that's fine. And may God rest their souls.
PvE is terrible. How the hell people do the same scripted shit over and over, AND then ask for the same scripted shut in another game is beyond me.
The challenge is what you make it.....I see players that are level 20 fighting in a level 5 zone...yeah thats no challenge and not much fun, but I would take my level 15 and try to fight in the level 20 zone...some games you could do that, otehr games you could not..... To me the PVP was never fun......The other players were always much higher level and getting killed in one or two hits constantly isn't fun either. It's only fun if you are the wolf and not the lamb.
PvE is terrible. How the hell people do the same scripted shit over and over, AND then ask for the same scripted shut in another game is beyond me.
I had just read Cameltosis's post, and that's what struck me too. I guess the "sugar hit" is the draw.
Not really, for me. It's more about control of my personal environment. It's also why I dislike Raiding: Chaos is the name of the game.
I do appreciate the danger, but when massively multiplayer is the name of the game, that's too much chaos for me and is not even close to fun.
PvE doesn't have to be scripted, but more often than not, that's what we get (thanks WoW). Just like bcbully, , it's hard for me to imagine players actually enjoying chaos on a massively multiplayer level. It's just too much constant attention for my idea of fun. Besides, I have no need to "prove my manhood" like bcbully seems to in PvP
Hahah Haaa I prove my manhood by satisfying my woman and the chick she picks.
That kind of approach I thought was a very nice way of dealing with the game, where "End Game" was vast and limitless as you wanted it to be.
Then of course they put in Fractals, and then Raids.. and made "End Game" this little narrow spot like all other games, and ruined the very thing that made the game amazing to start with. But I am sure some loved it, because it was a like all those other games they don't play any more.
That right there is exactly why I stopped playing GW2. They had a good horizontal progression system and they stood by it till the vocal minority started yelling for a WOW like progression and they bent over
Comments
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
This has been a 2TP post, no walls of text here. Just an answer. ;-)
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But mine's camouflage pattern/colors.
I only wear it to church, though, so no one sees me there.
Once upon a time....
Like what kind of moronic dumbass shit is that.
Preach!
I guess the "sugar hit" is the draw.
Once upon a time....
I do appreciate the danger, but when massively multiplayer is the name of the game, that's too much chaos for me and is not even close to fun.
PvE doesn't have to be scripted, but more often than not, that's what we get (thanks WoW). Just like bcbully, , it's hard for me to imagine players actually enjoying chaos on a massively multiplayer level. It's just too much constant attention for my idea of fun. Besides, I have no need to "prove my manhood" like bcbully seems to in PvP
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
They were all sustainable- even with small amount of mmo players. Better yet, they had great social systems.
Now entire design philosophies of games break down when there's less than hundreds of thousands of players. Most sandbox games are designed in a way where it's almost not worth playing if you can't play every day. I can make real money 8-10 hours 5 days a week...I can spend less time(and money) training for a NAGA BJJ tournament than I would to compete in Archeage.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
GW2 Core, did a solid job to address this by making leveling fast and easy, so, that by the time you leveled, there was still vast swaths of the word to explore, there was still tons of things left to be done, in short, getting to "Max Level" was like finishing off the tutorial, and now it was time to go forth and experience the game.
That kind of approach I thought was a very nice way of dealing with the game, where "End Game" was vast and limitless as you wanted it to be.
Then of course they put in Fractals, and then Raids.. and made "End Game" this little narrow spot like all other games, and ruined the very thing that made the game amazing to start with. But I am sure some loved it, because it was a like all those other games they don't play any more.
Anyway, this is also why I like DDO, I can sit at max level, and do Epic/Legendary Raids, and just seek to augment and buff up my character, to acquire that best of the best of the best gear, that requires that I raid my weasley black guts out, or I can opt to Reincarnate, and play the game all over again, to enjoy the whole process of leveling my main again, now a bit stronger, and this time around maybe doing things on a higher difficulty, etc.
I guess it is what you make of it.
But I'm afraid all I'll accomplish is to insult that type of player. And I don't really want to do that. I'm sure the majority of them are good people in RL.
But in the end, it's their right to choose, and that's fine.
And may God rest their souls.
Once upon a time....
The challenge is what you make it.....I see players that are level 20 fighting in a level 5 zone...yeah thats no challenge and not much fun, but I would take my level 15 and try to fight in the level 20 zone...some games you could do that, otehr games you could not..... To me the PVP was never fun......The other players were always much higher level and getting killed in one or two hits constantly isn't fun either. It's only fun if you are the wolf and not the lamb.
PvP is how I relax.
Arenanet lost my respect over the fractals