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Pre-Litigation Papers Have Been Filed in the Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    tzervo said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...I am flattered.
    ... also, why do you start all your posts with an ellipsis?
    Wiley-Gdemami  Super genius 
    Mendel

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,902
    TEKK3N said:
    Xsolla is safe, but SBS isn't.
    SBS is likely more safe than Xsolla.

    Xsolla made the mistake of making contracts which basically go: Anyone buying from CoE store agrees to deliver the payment to Xsolla which will deliver it forward, and Xsolla agrees to refund if the pre-purchase is not delivered.

    Xsolla made an amateur mistake with how they worded their contract, and no it's likely they'll have to pay for it.
    Gdemami
     
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    They are really going after Xsolla who foolishly didn't understand the liability about refunds their own TOS set them up for.
    .....CoE was never selling pre-orders, therefore Xsolla refund policy does not apply.
    I actually agree with you, but Xsolla's TOS left the door open by not specifically calling these transactions donations and addressing such directly.
    [Deleted User]

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,813
    Utinni said:
    Can't imagine being so butthurt about a crowdfunded game that I'd file suit. Huge yikes.

    I don't feel sorry for the gamers one iota...if anyone is that dumb to just blindly throw money at things, then they get what they deserve.
    [Deleted User]
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited August 2020
    Kyleran said:
    Xsolla's TOS left the door open by not specifically calling these transactions donations
    No, they did not.

    Like said before, the specification of the subject of the purchase is on the party you trade with - SBS.

    Post edited by Gdemami on
    MightyUnclean
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    Amathe said:
    Suppose this case succeeds, either because the plaintiffs prevail or they settle it favorably. What will that do to the crowd funding industry? How many games will never see development for fear of being CoE'd?

    Don't get me wrong. CoE is scummy and they deserve to lose.

    I'm just saying there may be unintended consequences.

    Hey Star Citizen. Send not for whom the bell tolls ....
    Or the opposite... what shit storm gets released if the case is dismissed and companies are now confirmed in their ability to blatantly lie and even ignore their own TOS?

    It will certainly make for interesting watching as this progresses.   My guess is that if the case is allowed to stand, Xsolla settles because they have already changed their policy in their TOS so this is kind of a one and done for them and the bad PR is likely worse than the settlement.

    I actually think they have a stronger case against Xsolla than they do Jeromy... or at least easier to prove.
    Gdemami

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    Mendel said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...laughable.

    The case has no legs to stand on.

    I actually agree.  Both letters to the defendants specifically mentioned "sales" and "pre-orders".  These were always considered and advertised as "donations".  That's a pretty significant distinction.  A distinction that is likely to get the entire complaint thrown out.  Major legal faux pas.

    The lawsuit could still proceed if the lawyers were going to tackle the whole "donation" issue and make a case that by using the term "donation" SBS was trying to present themselves as a charitable organization, thus deceiving the defendants.  I don't know if the lawyers are going to want that fight, though.

    Pity.  SBS needs to be made into an example.  The courts also need to set a precedent to prevent similar companies from doing similar things.  Customers have rights.

    There seemed to be a legitimate legal case here.  The plaintiffs simply hired the wrong attorneys for the job.



    That is actually incorrect.  The CoE TOS refers to them as sales and purchases.
    Gdemami

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    edited August 2020
    tzervo said:
    Gdemami said:
    Kyleran said:
    They are really going after Xsolla who foolishly didn't understand the liability about refunds their own TOS set them up for.
    .....CoE was never selling pre-orders, therefore Xsolla refund policy does not apply.
    https://xsolla.com/refundpolicy/en-uk

    Our Products
    Xsolla provides you with a software which is delivered to you via Internet downloads only. You can purchase the following Xsolla products: a) pre-order, b) subscription, c) access to a game (via key or a registered game account), d) in-game currency, e) in-game item, f) premium account (collectively the “Software”).

    From the above it seems like Xsolia does not address pledges in their terms. Not sure how CoE selling pledges through Xsolla counts (as a pledge or preorder?), both in terms of the Xsolla agreement and in terms of law, and if a pledge vs a preorder makes any difference in this case.

    There are two parts to this: 
    Transactions that happened on Kickstarter
    Transactions that happened on the CoE Website (and through Xsolla)

    I won't get into the first part... but for the second part just go read the still posted TOS on the Elyria website:

    7. Purchases and Refunds

    You acknowledge and accept that all purchases of the Services, as well as any purchase of any Goods, Perks, and Attributes, are FINAL. You acknowledge and agree that any applicable fees and other charges, including those paid for licenses to the Services or any Goods, Perks, and Attributes, including any virtual in game currency, are not refundable, in whole or in part. You acknowledge you will not be refunded, receive money, or otherwise be compensated or credited for unused virtual currency or other Goods, Perks, and Attributes, or of any unused Services, when an account is closed, whether such closure is voluntary or involuntary.

    8. Third Party Services

    For certain transactions or aspects of game play, Soulbound Studios may transmit your information to certain third-party services or vendors, or require You to utilize such third-party services to facilitate certain aspects of the Services or purchases of the Services or Goods, Perks, and Attributes. Soulbound Studios makes no warranties or representations as to any such third-party services, and Soulbound Studios will in no way be responsible or in any way liable for Your use of such third-party services. Such use of third party services shall be governed by the terms of service of the particular service, which may or may not differ from these Terms of Service.


    SoulboundStudios clearly describes them as PURCHASES...  not donations.  And they even go as far as to say that any third party services (Xsolla) TOS takes precedence, so while Jeromy said there could be no refunds, Xsolla actually guaranteed them...

    It's like both Xsolla and SbS, through an epic coincidence of lack of foresight... doomed each other to liability but in this case SbS is liable to Xsolla and Xsolla to the customers.

    Edit:  one other interesting line that clearly described pre-purchases:

     Soulbound Studios shall use best efforts to deliver Services purchased pre-release on or before the estimated release date for the Services.


    Gdemami[Deleted User]

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,856
    So. When's COE gonna release?
    GladDog
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    tzervo said:

    SoulboundStudios clearly describes them as PURCHASES...  not donations.  And they even go as far as to say that any third party services (Xsolla) TOS takes precedence, so while Jeromy said there could be no refunds, Xsolla actually guaranteed them...

    I wasn't making the argument that a pledge is a donation.

    Not sure how the law defines it and where it makes distinctions, but to me a pledge is a purchase but with an uncertain outcome: you might receive the goods or you might not if development of the product goes bad. It is infinitely more complicated to make a case that you did not receive what you promised because you were not promised a guaranteed product in the first place - just that if one is successfully developed, you will get it.

    Whereas in a preorder, you pay for a guaranteed product in a fixed date in the near future. If you do not receive it the seller is liable to refund you.

    Xsolla does not even mention pledges in its TOS. I have no idea how the courts will decide on that, I leave it to the experts in the field.
    People bought specific item from the cash shop.   They bought boats, they bought, outfits, they bought game currency (influence points).  These were not pledges.  They were store purchases.

    Again- Do not confuse the Kickstarter with the CoE store.  I think they have a harder case to prove for any Kickstarter issues.   


    [Deleted User]GdemamiDakeru

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited August 2020
    tzervo said:
    Not sure how the law defines it and where it makes distinctions
    The distincition is in return consideration and like you said below, these purchases are predicated on the existence of a game - thus no expected consideration.

    That is why any crowdfunded project is only liable for delivering trinkets, rewards you recieve for your donation and it makes no difference whether you are raising funds via KS or your own store, they both operate under same principle.
    MightyUnclean
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    Amathe said:
    Suppose this case succeeds, either because the plaintiffs prevail or they settle it favorably. What will that do to the crowd funding industry? How many games will never see development for fear of being CoE'd?

    Don't get me wrong. CoE is scummy and they deserve to lose.

    I'm just saying there may be unintended consequences.

    Hey Star Citizen. Send not for whom the bell tolls ....
    Or the opposite... what shit storm gets released if the case is dismissed and companies are now confirmed in their ability to blatantly lie and even ignore their own TOS?

    It will certainly make for interesting watching as this progresses.   My guess is that if the case is allowed to stand, Xsolla settles because they have already changed their policy in their TOS so this is kind of a one and done for them and the bad PR is likely worse than the settlement.

    I actually think they have a stronger case against Xsolla than they do Jeromy... or at least easier to prove.

    What did Xsolla change in their TOS?
    --------------------------------------------
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    Amathe said:
    Suppose this case succeeds, either because the plaintiffs prevail or they settle it favorably. What will that do to the crowd funding industry? How many games will never see development for fear of being CoE'd?

    Don't get me wrong. CoE is scummy and they deserve to lose.

    I'm just saying there may be unintended consequences.

    Hey Star Citizen. Send not for whom the bell tolls ....
    Or the opposite... what shit storm gets released if the case is dismissed and companies are now confirmed in their ability to blatantly lie and even ignore their own TOS?

    It will certainly make for interesting watching as this progresses.   My guess is that if the case is allowed to stand, Xsolla settles because they have already changed their policy in their TOS so this is kind of a one and done for them and the bad PR is likely worse than the settlement.

    I actually think they have a stronger case against Xsolla than they do Jeromy... or at least easier to prove.

    What did Xsolla change in their TOS?
    We recently... well a few moths ago... had all this hashed out in a thread on here and went into a lot deeper info.  May have been a news article but there was a lot of good info there.   Xsolla changed their TOS to no longer guarantee refunds for pre-orders as long as it wasn’t delivered.  
    Gdemami

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  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    Amathe said:
    Suppose this case succeeds, either because the plaintiffs prevail or they settle it favorably. What will that do to the crowd funding industry? How many games will never see development for fear of being CoE'd?

    Don't get me wrong. CoE is scummy and they deserve to lose.

    I'm just saying there may be unintended consequences.

    Hey Star Citizen. Send not for whom the bell tolls ....
    Or the opposite... what shit storm gets released if the case is dismissed and companies are now confirmed in their ability to blatantly lie and even ignore their own TOS?

    It will certainly make for interesting watching as this progresses.   My guess is that if the case is allowed to stand, Xsolla settles because they have already changed their policy in their TOS so this is kind of a one and done for them and the bad PR is likely worse than the settlement.

    I actually think they have a stronger case against Xsolla than they do Jeromy... or at least easier to prove.

    What did Xsolla change in their TOS?
    We recently... well a few moths ago... had all this hashed out in a thread on here and went into a lot deeper info.  May have been a news article but there was a lot of good info there.   Xsolla changed their TOS to no longer guarantee refunds for pre-orders as long as it wasn’t delivered.  

    Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems refunds for pre-orders are still listed. Was it phrased differently before?





    [Deleted User]
    --------------------------------------------
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,902
    edited August 2020
    Gdemami said:
    tzervo said:
    Not sure how the law defines it and where it makes distinctions
    The distincition is in return consideration and like you said below, these purchases are predicated on the existence of a game - thus no expected consideration.
    False. A donation is only if you give away your property without any conditions that could give you something in exchange.

    If you make a conditional agreement like: "I get A, but only if B happens", that's a purchase. For example insurances and gambling all give you return only conditionally. It's still counted as a purchase.
    MendelGladDogGdemami
     
  • GladDogGladDog Member RarePosts: 1,097
    I will have to say that all of this relates to the golden rule that you never invest what you cannot afford to lose.  I have a couple of hundred invested in Ship of Heroes, which is the only game I have invested in.  

    I can afford to lose a couple of hundred bucks.  I spent more than that on my last video card.

    How can that guy that 'donated' TWENTY GRAND think that was not going to affect his life?  My gosh, he could put a mid-high end gaming laptop in just about every room of his house with that much money, which would be something a lazy-ass dude like me would consider using that money for.  And I would get far more out of that than investing what was for all intents and purposes vaporware.


    The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    edited August 2020
    GladDog said:
    I will have to say that all of this relates to the golden rule that you never invest what you cannot afford to lose.  I have a couple of hundred invested in Ship of Heroes, which is the only game I have invested in.  

    I can afford to lose a couple of hundred bucks.  I spent more than that on my last video card.

    How can that guy that 'donated' TWENTY GRAND think that was not going to affect his life?  My gosh, he could put a mid-high end gaming laptop in just about every room of his house with that much money, which would be something a lazy-ass dude like me would consider using that money for.  And I would get far more out of that than investing what was for all intents and purposes vaporware.

    Just because you can AFFORD to lose something, doesn't mean you won't fight to keep it anyways... especially if you were scammed.

    Spending $20k to this guy, could be the same as $100 to you or me, you never know.
    --------------------------------------------
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    Amathe said:
    Suppose this case succeeds, either because the plaintiffs prevail or they settle it favorably. What will that do to the crowd funding industry? How many games will never see development for fear of being CoE'd?

    Don't get me wrong. CoE is scummy and they deserve to lose.

    I'm just saying there may be unintended consequences.

    Hey Star Citizen. Send not for whom the bell tolls ....
    Or the opposite... what shit storm gets released if the case is dismissed and companies are now confirmed in their ability to blatantly lie and even ignore their own TOS?

    It will certainly make for interesting watching as this progresses.   My guess is that if the case is allowed to stand, Xsolla settles because they have already changed their policy in their TOS so this is kind of a one and done for them and the bad PR is likely worse than the settlement.

    I actually think they have a stronger case against Xsolla than they do Jeromy... or at least easier to prove.

    What did Xsolla change in their TOS?
    We recently... well a few moths ago... had all this hashed out in a thread on here and went into a lot deeper info.  May have been a news article but there was a lot of good info there.   Xsolla changed their TOS to no longer guarantee refunds for pre-orders as long as it wasn’t delivered.  

    Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems refunds for pre-orders are still listed. Was it phrased differently before?





    They may have put it back.  I honestly haven’t followed it since the last news article.
    GdemamiWellspring

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    Gdemami said:
    tzervo said:
    Not sure how CoE selling pledges through Xsolla counts (as a pledge or preorder?), both in terms of the Xsolla agreement and in terms of law
    ...it counts as pledge, Xsolla is just a processor of the payment process. What is being sold is all on Soulbound studio.
    Personally I like armchair lawyers better than armchair developers.  This is because a lawyer actually has to pass a bar exam and get a law degree.   A developer on the other hand simply has to open a Crowdfunding effort with some powerpoints.  

    So for someone to say they know better than the actual guy with the law degree is really interesting to me.

    I say we watch and see what happens.

    Wellspring

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  • xion12121xion12121 Member UncommonPosts: 199
    Gdemami said:
    tzervo said:
    Not sure how CoE selling pledges through Xsolla counts (as a pledge or preorder?), both in terms of the Xsolla agreement and in terms of law
    ...it counts as pledge, Xsolla is just a processor of the payment process. What is being sold is all on Soulbound studio.
    Personally I like armchair lawyers better than armchair developers.  This is because a lawyer actually has to pass a bar exam and get a law degree.   A developer on the other hand simply has to open a Crowdfunding effort with some powerpoints.  

    So for someone to say they know better than the actual guy with the law degree is really interesting to me.

    I say we watch and see what happens.

    Armchair lawyer or Armchair developer.... doesn't matter. It's common sense. It was never a preorder, it was a kickstarter. All projects on kickstarter are donations towards a potential product. Nothing is ever 100% Guaranteed in any kickstarter project you back. Go read their ToS, they never guarantee the success of any project. I feel bad for those that lost money as I think what the company did was a scam, but legally there is no recourse. One can try to spin it armchair lawyer, armchair whatever, the truth is that kickstarter projects are just that kickstarters to help the company start the project. Never do they guarantee a final product like a preorder. You don't need a law degree to understand that. 

    I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    xion12121 said:
    Gdemami said:
    tzervo said:
    Not sure how CoE selling pledges through Xsolla counts (as a pledge or preorder?), both in terms of the Xsolla agreement and in terms of law
    ...it counts as pledge, Xsolla is just a processor of the payment process. What is being sold is all on Soulbound studio.
    Personally I like armchair lawyers better than armchair developers.  This is because a lawyer actually has to pass a bar exam and get a law degree.   A developer on the other hand simply has to open a Crowdfunding effort with some powerpoints.  

    So for someone to say they know better than the actual guy with the law degree is really interesting to me.

    I say we watch and see what happens.

    Armchair lawyer or Armchair developer.... doesn't matter. It's common sense. It was never a preorder, it was a kickstarter. All projects on kickstarter are donations towards a potential product. Nothing is ever 100% Guaranteed in any kickstarter project you back. Go read their ToS, they never guarantee the success of any project. I feel bad for those that lost money as I think what the company did was a scam, but legally there is no recourse. One can try to spin it armchair lawyer, armchair whatever, the truth is that kickstarter projects are just that kickstarters to help the company start the project. Never do they guarantee a final product like a preorder. You don't need a law degree to understand that. 
    You are confused. This is a crowd funded effort with Kickstarter being just the first funding round, bringing in a million or so.

    Post KSer they began selling things on the COE website, raising $6M plus with all transactions being handled by Xsolla.

    It's true, the COE website said no refunds, but in fact they did give them to some people and in certain circumstances.

    Xsolla's website clearly promised to give refunds if a game had not shipped yet, which clearly is the case here.

    I realize there's many gray areas in this case which is why it will be good to see how a court might rule if it ever reaches that point.

    My guess is Xsolla settles for some lessor amount than full refunds but we'll see.

    However, that said I don't agree with such, in my view Xsolla never intended for their refund policy to cover buyer's in this manner, nor should they be expected to cover the buyer's remorse backers have now, that lies totally on Soulbound IMO.









    Gdemami

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    xion12121 said:
    Gdemami said:
    tzervo said:
    Not sure how CoE selling pledges through Xsolla counts (as a pledge or preorder?), both in terms of the Xsolla agreement and in terms of law
    ...it counts as pledge, Xsolla is just a processor of the payment process. What is being sold is all on Soulbound studio.
    Personally I like armchair lawyers better than armchair developers.  This is because a lawyer actually has to pass a bar exam and get a law degree.   A developer on the other hand simply has to open a Crowdfunding effort with some powerpoints.  

    So for someone to say they know better than the actual guy with the law degree is really interesting to me.

    I say we watch and see what happens.

    Armchair lawyer or Armchair developer.... doesn't matter. It's common sense. It was never a preorder, it was a kickstarter. All projects on kickstarter are donations towards a potential product. Nothing is ever 100% Guaranteed in any kickstarter project you back. Go read their ToS, they never guarantee the success of any project. I feel bad for those that lost money as I think what the company did was a scam, but legally there is no recourse. One can try to spin it armchair lawyer, armchair whatever, the truth is that kickstarter projects are just that kickstarters to help the company start the project. Never do they guarantee a final product like a preorder. You don't need a law degree to understand that. 
    Apparently common sense is not so common.  There is a difference between the Kickstarter and the 6 mil they sold direct on their website.

    And your lack of understanding is showing again as the TOS specifically says that 3rd party TOS take precedence and the Xsolla TOS did guarantee refunds.   

    If it was as easy to dismiss as you mistakenly believe then there would be no need for the charade of “We are still developing the game even though we laid off all staff”
    [Deleted User]GdemamiKyleran

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited August 2020
    Apparently common sense is not so common. 
    ...indeed, and you are a shining example of that.
    MightyUnclean
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    Gdemami said:
    Apparently common sense is not so common. 
    ...indeed, and you are a shining example of that.
    Said the pot to the kettle.   :D

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,105
    Gdemami said:
    Apparently common sense is not so common. 
    ...indeed, and you are a shining example of that.
    Does being wrong so often never get old?  I mean... even a child learns not to touch the hot stove after getting burned...  yet you persist.  Time after time being wrong.  Demonstrably.

    Stick to LoLs... at least then we only suspect what you confirm with each post.
    KyleranGdemami

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