Originally posted by sempiternal First of all, nobody is ever forced to play a game and nobody is ever forced to do anything within a game. It may be beneficial to do different types of activities or be involved in certain types of play, but you are never forced. The poll is biased. Secondly, Massively Multiplayer games should mainly focus on the massively multiplayer aspect or community. This is the main advantage that they have over other games and therefore they should take advantage of it, offering activities that encourage players to play and compete together. In any game you are always free to do what you want, even if that means sittting there and doing nothing or walking away from the game. You may not be very competitive if you do so, but that is your choice. "Force" never belongs in any discussion about games, the only time people use it is in feeble attempts at making a point.
Then, let me be feeble, I guess.
There are aspects of MMORPG that do not exist in the true "solo player" games out there. I love MMORPG's and don't like most solo rpg's I've tried.
Secondly, casual gamers have different needs than do hardcore gamers. Many casual gamers, such as myself, can't wait around for hours trying to coordinate a 40-man raid. I have 1-3 hours each day that I can play a game, due to my work, family, etc. I love to game but I just can't do it 24/7 (like some people can). For me, having solo content and small group challenges throughout all levels of the game makes it fun for me and doesn't leave me out of key aspects of the game.
You might consider these things next time you start to make your comments regarding those of us who are "feeble".
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Vagabond Spirit in search of a home... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Which FF Character Are You?
Originally posted by sempiternal First of all, nobody is ever forced to play a game and nobody is ever forced to do anything within a game. It may be beneficial to do different types of activities or be involved in certain types of play, but you are never forced. The poll is biased. Secondly, Massively Multiplayer games should mainly focus on the massively multiplayer aspect or community. This is the main advantage that they have over other games and therefore they should take advantage of it, offering activities that encourage players to play and compete together. In any game you are always free to do what you want, even if that means sittting there and doing nothing or walking away from the game. You may not be very competitive if you do so, but that is your choice. "Force" never belongs in any discussion about games, the only time people use it is in feeble attempts at making a point.
Of course you are free to sit and do nothing in a game if you please and that is your preference, after all you are paying to do so. However there is more than one example where the developers vision & direction limits the options of it's community to a certain playstyle, forces if you will the player to act within one and one playstyle only if said player wants to progress his or hers character to stay competitive. Diversity is good!
I think it all depends on the type of game. I don't think people need to be confined to the thinking of what EQ was or FF11 whereby grouping was the main core activity of the game to understand that there are some mmorpgs that can be appealling solo. The fact you're in a world with a load of other people makes it already multiple times better than a single player rpg.
However, as I said my preferred one is where grouping is the main activity not out of forcing so much but out of enjoyment, out of discovering your class beyond that of what I call 'ocd' play. Everquest was good in this respect as it had many group-centric abilities that you could not enjoy solo.
Everquest's appeal of grouping I think was also the fact that the world was challenging and thereby it felt a lot more fun grouping feeling that sense of adventure in tackling it. WoW on the otherhand, with so many people soloing it destroyed that sense of real adventure from my perspective.
Originally posted by ChaosKin Realistically, what would be the point of complete soloing.. that would be a stand alone game.. There would be no need or reason for the Massively Multiplayer part.. Just my opinion but that makes no sense.
There is actually a social aspect to online games even if you don't group. People still talk in OOC and if they belong to a guild, even a small one, there are usually people on to chat with. It basically gives them something to do while chatting. Its like AOL instant messanger with a game wrapped around it. That was part of the social aspect of the entertainer profession in SWG that drew a lot of people in. You could stand around and BS all night long and throw buffs on people and do image designing and never ever have to go out and kill stuff if you didn't want to.
Originally posted by Anofalye Solo should have it own end-game, it own hierarchy.
Solo should not allow you to reach everything for grouping purposes. Neither should grouping allow you to reach the best solo stuff.
Solo deserves a end-game of it own...solo should allow you to gain XP for the overall system and solo items, to actually rule the solo world...grouping should allow you to gain XP for the overall system and give you the group uberness items, never the solo uberness earned by grouping.
I am mostly a grouper myself. But why should I solo rather than log if I don't get a group? Gimme a reason to solo, else you are short of 1 grouper.
Group uberness should be earned in groups. Solo uberness earned while soloing. Both should give some XP for the overall system as well. Someone who never solo should not be better at soloing than a lone wolf. A lone wolf should not be better at grouping than a group junkie.
Once you covered those 2 basics, which is the real foundation of a MMO, you can consider minorities activities like PvP, raiding or tradeskill. Please the overwhelming majority first, this is groupers and soloers.
Nobody logical can complain that you request that someone does the activity he wants to be good in. You want to be solo-uber, than solo. You want to be group-uber, than group. You want to be raid-uber, than raid. Asking someone to play another gameplay is doomed from the start. If someone will not group because he just want to be good at soloing, trust me, it is better for everyone that this person only solo, eventually we might corrupt that persons to the joy of grouping positively, enforcing lead to hatred...and hatred hurt a game and a company a lot...Smed could testify even if he is to proud to admit it!
I think this is an excellent idea. If you were working for my developement company I would promote you. (If i in fact had my own developement company)
I gotta say I dont want to team with people everytime I want xp, so the xp should be set in a manner where if you team or solo your advancing at a good pace. I hate games where if you have no team or group you get squat for xp and same for opposite. First and formost even though mmo's have lots of people, that doesnt mean your necessarily going to team up, people play at different times and in different ways and your character advancement should be based on your gamestyle and non dependant on everyone else and should still contribute to teaming/grouping.
This is somewhat like the ffa PvP vs carebear debate.
The scary similarity is that solo people do not hate or even dislike group people, as the carebears do not hate the ffa pvp crowd, least not in the discussions.
The only obvious and sane conclusion must be that the people who do not hate, are more rigth, regardless of the subject, they are at the very least better people in all respects.
That said, I think one of the options in the poll was great, " I like to solo when I grind", not a huge fan of grinding but I also do not hate it as much as most people do ( I am, in general strongly opposed to hate in any form, hehe, ) but I do want to make my own pace when I am doing it.
I am currently playing vampire TM Bloodlines, and I sure as hell would play that online if only for a safe place to store my character, and get semi regular updates, even if I never ever met another player, I would even pay a monthly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solo should have it own end-game, it own hierarchy. Solo should not allow you to reach everything for grouping purposes. Neither should grouping allow you to reach the best solo stuff. Solo deserves a end-game of it own...solo should allow you to gain XP for the overall system and solo items, to actually rule the solo world...grouping should allow you to gain XP for the overall system and give you the group uberness items, never the solo uberness earned by grouping.
I think maybe a tad bit extreme but in general the principle of improving your solo more by soloing, or your grouping by grouping could be pretty good.
Originally posted by sempiternal First of all, nobody is ever forced to play a game and nobody is ever forced to do anything within a game. It may be beneficial to do different types of activities or be involved in certain types of play, but you are never forced. The poll is biased.
Play FFXI solo to max level with every class then come back and tell me the poll is biased.
Originally posted by karter64 I believe any game that leans too far one way or the other is going to limit it's customer base. As the poster before me mentioned, I think a game needs enough content to keep the solo'ers happy while allowing some benefits to those that group. I think Asheron's Call did a good job of that, and World of Warcraft up to max level.
I believe any game that leans too far one way or the other is going to limit it's customer base too.
But that also means that any such game will target a specific customer base, which might enjoy this game more than other games. I don't expect to see one game perfect for all.
Take WoW: Everybody gets to be the hero, and hardly anybody is more special than anybody else. Good for anybody who wants a light journey through a preset tale of heroism. (Normally, I don't favour this kind of experience).
Take... gee, dunno... EVE, maybe? Competition is primarily other players, and some stand out because of their efforts, alliances or ingenuity. However, there is little of that personal "be somebody in the world" experience. Good for other players, interesting to me.
The perfect game, the way I see it, isn't the one with the broadest appeal, but the one which satisfies me. EVE would be the better game, but WoW would have more players. Balancing, giving a little to everybody - that might be good for generating the best revenue. For soloers, solo-focus might be the best experience.
To me: Anybody should be able to survive on their own, but loners would be too busy maintaining their own existence to achieve much else. Communities can divide tasks and have people specialize, advance and be productive.
Rewards
Defeating an enemy, primary: The enemy is out of the world, or under control
Defeating an enemy, secondary: You can gain control of the enemy's resources
Defeating an enemy (specifically) by yourself: You will not have to share the spoils of war / loot
Risks
Assaulting an enemy, primary: The enemy might defeat you
Assaulting an enemy, secondary: The enemy might have allies who are now your enemies
Assaulting an enemy (specifically) by yourself: Risk is simply higher than if you had brought friends.
I don't want the game to force grouping, I want logical mechanisms to encourage grouping. Groups won't be stronger because that is hard-coded, but because the game isn't designed to make solo-playing a powertrip. (You can still do things on your own)
The future: Adellion Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants) Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens) Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
I actually dont mind at all a mmo have soloing. as long as the developers were to make soloing fun and make it right with in the game. solo quests is fine, soloing a thousand monsters is fine too. there needs to be a balance between soloing content and group content.
i hope developers were to make solo content as rewarding as group content. like a player who choices to solo will get the same amount of experience and treasure as grouping. here is why. some people out there might not be able to get a group because of RL issues or they might not be able to get into a group just because they cant.
players who choice to solo shouldnt be punished because they choice to or they are force too. people who enjoy to group will make up their own minds whether they do or not, same goes for people who solo. there are times when I personally will choice to solo or to group on any given day. why? because cooperative play have its own rewards, as in satisfaction with working with other players in the same goal. thats the real fun in grouping.
for games that force grouping on some classes. they need to provide an adequate way in helping players form groups. player search windows with everyone who is interested in grouping should be there for everyone. dungeons and dragons online have a great system, where they could let groups advertise themselves what classes they require so then a player who is looking for a group will easily ask for an invite to the group leader.
for other games that provide soloing. they need to have a balance between classes. everquest 2 had classes that could make soloing a breeze to some. for others it was a very slow process, especially if you want to level one time. having solo quests that will give you experience in doing will probably be the best idea in helping solve the grind some classes will come. if the developers were to adjust the experience amount for each quest so a player will receive relative low to no grind in leveling. really i never believe that leveling is content to a mmo, but the real content is the quests and crafting in mmos.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Originally posted by brostyn Personally, I'd rather group, but I don't want my play to be limitied if there are no groups going on. I don't pay to be lfg.
i agree with you 100% here. everquest 2 had this problem when it first started. i would spend hours on a dock LFG.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
I think alot of this solo vs. group is part of the individual players playstyle preference. Its a double-edged sword most of the time. You have people who passionately want solo, group, and or both and the developers are struggling to fix bugs and add new content and at the same time make everyone happy.
Many developers have a vision for their game that might not suit all players. The problem starts when they generalize a few players demands and preferences for one thing and start altering the entire game, making even more people upset. To try to make everyone happy they end up upsetting even more people.
People need to learn how to play the game how the developers created it. If you dont like how they created the game noone is forcing you to stay. It starts being annoying when you stick around, dont play, and sit on the messageboards threatening you are going to cancel your accounts because the will or wont change something. Then it gets even worse when you have followers starting to make threats and you start tension between the developers and players.
Of course there are going to be bugs in the code that created the game. But when people start demanding they change the game the developers fear they will lose subscriptions and go crazy making all kinds of weird changes and the players are left in a state of confusion.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I solo until a find a really great roleplaying group or some cool people. I once had a friend in UO where we would talk EVERYDAY! We would share out secrets and discuss about every subject. She was wonderful I lost contact with her when I was really depressed and even when she was there I cut here off my aim list and thats when I quit playing the OSI shards. I think soloing is okay and should be your choice if you want to or not.
Mustache is a cat That has to go to the vet Do your taxes now
Originally posted by zethcarn Originally posted by sempiternal First of all, nobody is ever forced to play a game and nobody is ever forced to do anything within a game. It may be beneficial to do different types of activities or be involved in certain types of play, but you are never forced. The poll is biased.
Play FFXI solo to max level with every class then come back and tell me the poll is biased.
Tried it, many years ago... unless they changed the game programming, the player base and the entire character make-up... it will be a long time until he comes back ...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Vagabond Spirit in search of a home... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Which FF Character Are You?
Originally posted by ChaosKin Realistically, what would be the point of complete soloing.. that would be a stand alone game.. There would be no need or reason for the Massively Multiplayer part.. Just my opinion but that makes no sense.
I have to agree with this. Imo, one extreme is just as bad as the other. I like to group, that is why i play a mmo. Otherwise, I would just play single players.
Side note... while i like grouping, I don't think it should be impossible to solo (just not as beneficial and harder). I also don't think that raids should be manditory if you want to do something challenging after maxing out.
I don't really like this poll as it's based on my choices to date. I don't want a game thats all about grinding and leveling. That said I'd like to be able to improve my characther by myself but be able to particapate in larger events such as guild/faction/kingdom wars over land/resources or whatever, battles that have more value than helping your characther level and for that u should need other players
Comments
Then, let me be feeble, I guess.
There are aspects of MMORPG that do not exist in the true "solo player" games out there. I love MMORPG's and don't like most solo rpg's I've tried.
Secondly, casual gamers have different needs than do hardcore gamers. Many casual gamers, such as myself, can't wait around for hours trying to coordinate a 40-man raid. I have 1-3 hours each day that I can play a game, due to my work, family, etc. I love to game but I just can't do it 24/7 (like some people can). For me, having solo content and small group challenges throughout all levels of the game makes it fun for me and doesn't leave me out of key aspects of the game.
You might consider these things next time you start to make your comments regarding those of us who are "feeble".
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Vagabond Spirit in search of a home...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Which FF Character Are You?
Of course you are free to sit and do nothing in a game if you please and that is your preference, after all you are paying to do so. However there is more than one example where the developers vision & direction limits the options of it's community to a certain playstyle, forces if you will the player to act within one and one playstyle only if said player wants to progress his or hers character to stay competitive. Diversity is good!
I think it all depends on the type of game. I don't think people need to be confined to the thinking of what EQ was or FF11 whereby grouping was the main core activity of the game to understand that there are some mmorpgs that can be appealling solo. The fact you're in a world with a load of other people makes it already multiple times better than a single player rpg.
However, as I said my preferred one is where grouping is the main activity not out of forcing so much but out of enjoyment, out of discovering your class beyond that of what I call 'ocd' play. Everquest was good in this respect as it had many group-centric abilities that you could not enjoy solo.
Everquest's appeal of grouping I think was also the fact that the world was challenging and thereby it felt a lot more fun grouping feeling that sense of adventure in tackling it. WoW on the otherhand, with so many people soloing it destroyed that sense of real adventure from my perspective.
Is there a gun to your head?
(If i in fact had my own developement company)
This is somewhat like the ffa PvP vs carebear debate.
The scary similarity is that solo people do not hate or even dislike group people, as the carebears do not hate the ffa pvp crowd, least not in the discussions.
The only obvious and sane conclusion must be that the people who do not hate, are more rigth, regardless of the subject, they are at the very least better people in all respects.
That said, I think one of the options in the poll was great, " I like to solo when I grind", not a huge fan of grinding but I also do not hate it as much as most people do ( I am, in general strongly opposed to hate in any form, hehe, ) but I do want to make my own pace when I am doing it.
I am currently playing vampire TM Bloodlines, and I sure as hell would play that online if only for a safe place to store my character, and get semi regular updates, even if I never ever met another player, I would even pay a monthly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think maybe a tad bit extreme but in general the principle of improving your solo more by soloing, or your grouping by grouping could be pretty good.
I believe any game that leans too far one way or the other is going to limit it's customer base too.
But that also means that any such game will target a specific customer base, which might enjoy this game more than other games. I don't expect to see one game perfect for all.
Take WoW: Everybody gets to be the hero, and hardly anybody is more special than anybody else. Good for anybody who wants a light journey through a preset tale of heroism. (Normally, I don't favour this kind of experience).
Take... gee, dunno... EVE, maybe? Competition is primarily other players, and some stand out because of their efforts, alliances or ingenuity. However, there is little of that personal "be somebody in the world" experience. Good for other players, interesting to me.
The perfect game, the way I see it, isn't the one with the broadest appeal, but the one which satisfies me. EVE would be the better game, but WoW would have more players. Balancing, giving a little to everybody - that might be good for generating the best revenue. For soloers, solo-focus might be the best experience.
To me: Anybody should be able to survive on their own, but loners would be too busy maintaining their own existence to achieve much else. Communities can divide tasks and have people specialize, advance and be productive.
I don't want the game to force grouping, I want logical mechanisms to encourage grouping. Groups won't be stronger because that is hard-coded, but because the game isn't designed to make solo-playing a powertrip. (You can still do things on your own)
The future: Adellion
Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)
my comment to this topic is this.
I actually dont mind at all a mmo have soloing. as long as the developers were to make soloing fun and make it right with in the game. solo quests is fine, soloing a thousand monsters is fine too. there needs to be a balance between soloing content and group content.
i hope developers were to make solo content as rewarding as group content. like a player who choices to solo will get the same amount of experience and treasure as grouping. here is why. some people out there might not be able to get a group because of RL issues or they might not be able to get into a group just because they cant.
players who choice to solo shouldnt be punished because they choice to or they are force too. people who enjoy to group will make up their own minds whether they do or not, same goes for people who solo. there are times when I personally will choice to solo or to group on any given day. why? because cooperative play have its own rewards, as in satisfaction with working with other players in the same goal. thats the real fun in grouping.
for games that force grouping on some classes. they need to provide an adequate way in helping players form groups. player search windows with everyone who is interested in grouping should be there for everyone. dungeons and dragons online have a great system, where they could let groups advertise themselves what classes they require so then a player who is looking for a group will easily ask for an invite to the group leader.
for other games that provide soloing. they need to have a balance between classes. everquest 2 had classes that could make soloing a breeze to some. for others it was a very slow process, especially if you want to level one time. having solo quests that will give you experience in doing will probably be the best idea in helping solve the grind some classes will come. if the developers were to adjust the experience amount for each quest so a player will receive relative low to no grind in leveling. really i never believe that leveling is content to a mmo, but the real content is the quests and crafting in mmos.
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
Have played: CoH, DDO EQ2, FFXI, L2, HZ, SoR, and WW2 online
I think alot of this solo vs. group is part of the individual players playstyle preference. Its a double-edged sword most of the time. You have people who passionately want solo, group, and or both and the developers are struggling to fix bugs and add new content and at the same time make everyone happy.
Many developers have a vision for their game that might not suit all players. The problem starts when they generalize a few players demands and preferences for one thing and start altering the entire game, making even more people upset. To try to make everyone happy they end up upsetting even more people.
People need to learn how to play the game how the developers created it. If you dont like how they created the game noone is forcing you to stay. It starts being annoying when you stick around, dont play, and sit on the messageboards threatening you are going to cancel your accounts because the will or wont change something. Then it gets even worse when you have followers starting to make threats and you start tension between the developers and players.
Of course there are going to be bugs in the code that created the game. But when people start demanding they change the game the developers fear they will lose subscriptions and go crazy making all kinds of weird changes and the players are left in a state of confusion.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Mustache is a cat
That has to go to the vet
Do your taxes now
Tried it, many years ago... unless they changed the game programming, the player base and the entire character make-up... it will be a long time until he comes back ...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Vagabond Spirit in search of a home...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Which FF Character Are You?
Side note... while i like grouping, I don't think it should be impossible to solo (just not as beneficial and harder). I also don't think that raids should be manditory if you want to do something challenging after maxing out.
I don't really like this poll as it's based on my choices to date. I don't want a game thats all about grinding and leveling. That said I'd like to be able to improve my characther by myself but be able to particapate in larger events such as guild/faction/kingdom wars over land/resources or whatever, battles that have more value than helping your characther level and for that u should need other players