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Pre-Litigation Papers Have Been Filed in the Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit

SystemSystem Member UncommonPosts: 12,599
edited August 2020 in News & Features Discussion

imagePre-Litigation Papers Have Been Filed in the Chronicles of Elyria Lawsuit

The ongoing saga that is the lawsuit against Xsolla and SoulBound Studios over the abrupt shut down of Chronicles of Elyria has received an update. Here are the details.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • harken33harken33 Member UncommonPosts: 164
    I guess you could say Soulbound Studios and Xsolla are *COE Defendants*

    This trainwreck just keeps on giving
    McSleazNanfoodleAmathe[Deleted User]
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,464
    I'm glad they mentioned Kickstarter sales in there too.

    Now that this has been filed, who wants to bet we get a new CoE "development update" from Caspian any day now?? :P
    bcbully[Deleted User]
    --------------------------------------------
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    ...laughable.

    The case has no legs to stand on.
    [Deleted User]EponyxDamorLeFantomeMendelMightyUncleanxion12121
  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,314
    Good luck to them. Blood and turnips and all that.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • Jamar870Jamar870 Member UncommonPosts: 572
    Welp like with SC, it's their money, they can spend it any way they like.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Suppose this case succeeds, either because the plaintiffs prevail or they settle it favorably. What will that do to the crowd funding industry? How many games will never see development for fear of being CoE'd?

    Don't get me wrong. CoE is scummy and they deserve to lose.

    I'm just saying there may be unintended consequences.

    Hey Star Citizen. Send not for whom the bell tolls ....
    MendelGdemamiLeFantomeinfomatz

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    Gdemami said:
    ...laughable.

    The case has no legs to stand on.

    I actually agree.  Both letters to the defendants specifically mentioned "sales" and "pre-orders".  These were always considered and advertised as "donations".  That's a pretty significant distinction.  A distinction that is likely to get the entire complaint thrown out.  Major legal faux pas.

    The lawsuit could still proceed if the lawyers were going to tackle the whole "donation" issue and make a case that by using the term "donation" SBS was trying to present themselves as a charitable organization, thus deceiving the defendants.  I don't know if the lawyers are going to want that fight, though.

    Pity.  SBS needs to be made into an example.  The courts also need to set a precedent to prevent similar companies from doing similar things.  Customers have rights.

    There seemed to be a legitimate legal case here.  The plaintiffs simply hired the wrong attorneys for the job.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    Mendel said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...laughable.

    The case has no legs to stand on.

    I actually agree.  Both letters to the defendants specifically mentioned "sales" and "pre-orders".  These were always considered and advertised as "donations".  That's a pretty significant distinction.  A distinction that is likely to get the entire complaint thrown out.  Major legal faux pas.

    The lawsuit could still proceed if the lawyers were going to tackle the whole "donation" issue and make a case that by using the term "donation" SBS was trying to present themselves as a charitable organization, thus deceiving the defendants.  I don't know if the lawyers are going to want that fight, though.

    Pity.  SBS needs to be made into an example.  The courts also need to set a precedent to prevent similar companies from doing similar things.  Customers have rights.

    There seemed to be a legitimate legal case here.  The plaintiffs simply hired the wrong attorneys for the job.



    Considering the lawyers are working for a contingency I suppose the backers are getting what they paid for.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • TillerTiller Member LegendaryPosts: 11,273
    Not one of you are a lawyer as far as I know, so I guess we can wait to see what the court decides.
    KyleranLeFantome[Deleted User][Deleted User]
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
     
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,004
    edited August 2020
    What are the laws regarding companies that are able to accept donations. Do they have to register forms and if you go by kickstarter rules here

    "Funds raised on Kickstarter must go towards facilitating the project outlined by the creator on the project page"

    Definitely poorly worded claim. They should have focused on whether the funds went to facilitating the project and make the Defendents prove how they used the money raised. Better foundation for accountability. Think they will lose like this.
    Gdemami[Deleted User]Mendel

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Some keywords "investors"your not an investor ..lol you gave a donation.
    $8 mil total sales,i didn't know a donation was a sale?

    Some dude gave 20k..ummm yeah ,the world is full of intelligent people.

    Off the Kickstarter page >>>creators have enough money to do what they promised and they’re not expected to complete a project without the funds necessary to do so.

    Unless i see some wording that states these were NOT donations,there is no way they win anything.Their best chance is if Jeremy forfeits then what?Also not having the funds to complete the project as is the case does not break any rules or guidelines set forth by kickstarter.

    Who or what are the lawyers suing?Soulbound studios,the one that has no money in it's coffers?
    Let me go check and see if Soulbound is/was a LLC..................
    and.yep

    © 2017 Soulbound Studios, LLC. All rights reserved. Chronicles of Elyria, Soulbound Studios, the Soulstone Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of Soulbound Studios, LLC. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owner


    Good luck suing Soulbound ..lol
    Jeremy could be sued if he avoided certain Debt because of FRAUD.He can also be sued IF it is proven INVESTED money was mishandled.

    As i stated,unless there is some wording somewhere that indicates this was some form on investment "i doubt it"this was simply a donation.The even tougher task is to prove FRAUD,PROVE he mishandled the funds.
    So to prove he mishandled or similar you would need someone or several people in the industry that do this for a living to see the books and PROVE he grossly mishandled the finds.I say "grossly" because there will not be a fine line,it will have to be a clear cut case of fraud or forget it.

    One last deciding factor and only IF it doesn't get tossed out....A judge or a jury?Furthermore,WHO is this lawyer representing the 20k dummy or several people?How would that lawyer know who unless they got in contact with the lawyers firm.What kind of proof of mishandled funds could others prove?
    Mendel

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,677
    They are really going after Xsolla who foolishly didn't understand the liability about refunds their own TOS set them up for.


    GladDogGdemamiAmathe[Deleted User]VrikaLeFantomeSlapshot1188[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    For those who could not get the link to work, the letter said:

     "Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries. 

    Please govern yourself accordingly."
    GladDogAsm0deus[Deleted User]kitaradUngoodNyghthowler

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited August 2020
    Mendel said:
    Gdemami said:
    ...laughable.

    The case has no legs to stand on.

    I actually agree.  Both letters to the defendants specifically mentioned "sales" and "pre-orders".  These were always considered and advertised as "donations".  That's a pretty significant distinction.  A distinction that is likely to get the entire complaint thrown out.  Major legal faux pas.



    If this lawsuits fails that won't be the reason. This whole "it's a donation" shell game is full of holes especially when CoE itself openly treats it as sales using words like "Dutch Auction," "flash sales" and "price" in their own event promotions:

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/news/34439/Announcing-the-Settlers-of-Elyria-Event

    The Lawyers' use of "sales" and "pre-orders" just seems to me like a deliberate early shot at the traditional crowdfunding double-speak about donations vs. sales.

    That distinction is a word game gamers like to play when talking about KS and other crowdfunding projects but grownups at the iRS and other places are wise to that and it's why KS projects need to declare it as income and use 1099-K forms to track sales.

    They can try to characterize what they receive as "gifts" but then it would need to meet this criteria:

    "A gift is something given out of “detached and disinterested generosity” for personal reasons and without the expectation of getting something in return"

    https://www.kickstarter.com/help/taxes#:~:text=Project%20creators%20keep%20100%25%20ownership,to%20life%2C%20not%20financially%20profit.



    LeFantomeGdemami[Deleted User]kitarad[Deleted User]
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • LeFantomeLeFantome Member RarePosts: 692

    Iselin said:


    Mendel said:


    Gdemami said:

    ...laughable.

    The case has no legs to stand on.



    I actually agree.  Both letters to the defendants specifically mentioned "sales" and "pre-orders".  These were always considered and advertised as "donations".  That's a pretty significant distinction.  A distinction that is likely to get the entire complaint thrown out.  Major legal faux pas.





    If this lawsuits fails that won't be the reason. This whole "it's a donation" shell game is full of holes especially when CoE itself openly treats it as sales using words like "Dutch Auction," "flash sales" and "price" in their own event promotions:

    https://chroniclesofelyria.com/news/34439/Announcing-the-Settlers-of-Elyria-Event

    The Lawyers' use of "sales" and "pre-orders" just seems to me like a deliberate early shot at the traditional crowdfunding double-speak about donations vs. sales.

    That distinction is a word game gamers like to play when talking about KS and other crowdfunding projects but grownups at the iRS and other places are wise to that and it's why KS projects need to declare it as income and use 1099-K forms to track sales.

    They can try to characterize what they receive as "gifts" but then it would need to meet this criteria:

    "A gift is something given out of “detached and disinterested generosity” for personal reasons and without the expectation of getting something in return"

    https://www.kickstarter.com/help/taxes#:~:text=Project%20creators%20keep%20100%25%20ownership,to%20life%2C%20not%20financially%20profit.






    Good job dude. Well explained.
    Gdemami

    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited August 2020
    LeFantome said:
    Good job dude. Well explained.
    ....except it's all wrong and ignorant.
    laseritLeFantomeMightyUncleanSolar_Prophet
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 23,359

    Gdemami said:


    LeFantome said:

    Good job dude. Well explained.


    ....except it's all wrong and ignorant.



    Caspian, give us a break. :)
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Kyleran said:
    They are really going after Xsolla who foolishly didn't understand the liability about refunds their own TOS set them up for.
    .....CoE was never selling pre-orders, therefore Xsolla refund policy does not apply.
    Iselin[Deleted User]MightyUnclean
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    Scot said:
    Caspian, give us a break. :)
    ...I am flattered.
    MightyUnclean
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 23,359
    "The official Discord for the lawsuit." There's a new one on me, makes me think about the wider implications. When you are putting your legal case on a social media platform there is a danger of turning the law into the tail that is wagged by public opinion, not good at all.

    As for the case itself, it may well have created the rush of "betas" of some sort or another we have seen recently. But then you can always read too much into these things. It would not surprise me at all to see CoE Unleased coming our way soon, after all that's happened to previously released games, so the next logical step would be doing that for an unreleased game. In the never ending piece of string that is making a game while milking the players, it has to come.

    Mendel
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,004
    Some gems here from the posters. I had a few laugh out loud moments.
    lahnmirWellspring[Deleted User]Nyghthowler

  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Xsolla is safe, but SBS isn't.

    COE is a blatant scam.
    Unlike other crowdfunded games they have no game to show.

    Unless they can prove that they have a functioning prototype at least in pre alpha state they will be liable of fraud.

    They need to prove they were actually developing a game and failed in order to get away with it.

    And as far as I know, there is no game, not even a prototype, just some demo made with Unity stock assets and some CGI trailers.

    Nothing that can justify spending 8 million dollars.
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    tzervo said:
    Not sure how CoE selling pledges through Xsolla counts (as a pledge or preorder?), both in terms of the Xsolla agreement and in terms of law
    ...it counts as pledge, Xsolla is just a processor of the payment process. What is being sold is all on Soulbound studio.
    [Deleted User]MightyUnclean
  • xion12121xion12121 Member UncommonPosts: 199
    edited August 2020
    I think that CoE team are scummy and deserve to lose the lawsuit. The problem is that in court you have to prove that they intentionally used the money for something else. If they paid out salaries, which they did they are legally not liable to pay anything back. They paid people $300,000 per year and office expenses. Scummy, but legally they are covered showing they paid out all employees salaries. They can claim that they paid people working on the project with salaries and other expenses used towards the game.

    As far as kickstarter if you go through all the games they state that all money received are donations, and that there is no guarantee that the projects will be done to completion. They state it as a risk to invest at your own peril.

    I hope that CoE loses though, but the problem? The law is all on CoE's side. It's not what you know that they did scummy scam things, it's what you can prove in court with documents. In Court It's all about what you are able to prove with evidence, saying "hey they scammed everyone" even though everyone knows they did, doesn't hold up in court.
    Gdemami

    I would give you a guest pass to SWOTR, but then I wouldn't be able to find a way to live with myself afterwards....

  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    Can't imagine being so butthurt about a crowdfunded game that I'd file suit. Huge yikes.
    Sovrath
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