My position remains the same - let me know when 2 happens - until then /snooze
as @mendel noted above - until 2 happens - it's a lot of talking heads
I think, as a crowd funded game, they are incentivized to talk about the game.
if the don't talk about it they get people screaming and crying that they are keeping people in the dark. If they do talk about it they get people unhappy because they didn't cover what they wanted to hear.
You also don't sell snake oil without a salesman. That's all that's happening; talk. They are talking to convince people to give them money.
The more I see of crowdfunded efforts, the more I think that these are just third-rate salesmen posing as developers.
Yea you are right but credit where credit is due it is damm impressive
that VR have kept this scam going for as long as they have, just through
talking heads.
I thought Pantheon would have gone the way of Chronicles of
Elyria by this. Kudos to VR for keeping
it going this long.
I'm one to voice a negative opinion about a company. But, VR started with some quality developers and some degree of integrity. Its just that they appear to be following the lead of other crowdfunding efforts that concerns me. The difference between Pantheon and CoE is that Pantheon started as a passion project, CoE appears to have always been a grab for customer's wallets. In reality, no one should be trying to emulate CoE/SBS. That's just not good for players.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
My position remains the same - let me know when 2 happens - until then /snooze
as @mendel noted above - until 2 happens - it's a lot of talking heads
I think, as a crowd funded game, they are incentivized to talk about the game.
if the don't talk about it they get people screaming and crying that they are keeping people in the dark. If they do talk about it they get people unhappy because they didn't cover what they wanted to hear.
You also don't sell snake oil without a salesman. That's all that's happening; talk. They are talking to convince people to give them money.
The more I see of crowdfunded efforts, the more I think that these are just third-rate salesmen posing as developers.
Yea you are right but credit where credit is due it is damm impressive
that VR have kept this scam going for as long as they have, just through
talking heads.
I thought Pantheon would have gone the way of Chronicles of
Elyria by this. Kudos to VR for keeping
it going this long.
I'm one to voice a negative opinion about a company. But, VR started with some quality developers and some degree of integrity. Its just that they appear to be following the lead of other crowdfunding efforts that concerns me. The difference between Pantheon and CoE is that Pantheon started as a passion project, CoE appears to have always been a grab for customer's wallets. In reality, no one should be trying to emulate CoE/SBS. That's just not good for players.
Thank you for the response Mendel. You state that Pantheon was a passion project
and not a cash grab, if this was the case, then why did the lead dev steal 45K
from the crowdfunding campaign back in 2013.
Link below
Pantheon was always a cash grab, exploiting the dreams of
old school MMORPG gamers. However, I do
see a glimmer of hope in you posts. I
think people like you are beginning to wake up. I just hope more will follow.
Don't mistake personal weakness for greed. Pantheon didn't start out as a ploy to separate people from their cash. Originally, there was the hope (I'd suggest misguided hope) to create a successor to EQ1. It seemed to have been a passion project far more than an out-and-out cash grab. It is just trending towards the cash grab tactics used by other development projects.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Visual Realms have not been spamming anyone with advertising,so not sure why anyone would think it is a cash grab business. You'll see more Rockstar threads in one week than Pantheon in 3-6 months.Rockstar advertises here EVERY single day.
Crowfall was after money,they were spamming us with pointless threads.CU imo is not a cash grab but also not a game that will be any good lol.
Money is and always will be the defining point from Indie to AAA.Not having enough employees or money means the focus shifts to pvp.This team has not done that as pvp is the EASY WAY out,this team continues to build a mmorpg.However they are are imo too focused on rehashing EQ,a huge mistake imo but i get it,this is what they know best,this is their mindset,so it works for them.
I would never try and sell a game that is same old new skin,it works sometimes financially but to me a waste of time,i don't want to play any game that is same old reskinned.I want new exciting ideas,i want a BETTER game world,better npc's,better content than just simple quests and sadly this team will not be able to deliver the game i want to play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
My position remains the same - let me know when 2 happens - until then /snooze
as @mendel noted above - until 2 happens - it's a lot of talking heads
I think, as a crowd funded game, they are incentivized to talk about the game.
if the don't talk about it they get people screaming and crying that they are keeping people in the dark. If they do talk about it they get people unhappy because they didn't cover what they wanted to hear.
You also don't sell snake oil without a salesman. That's all that's happening; talk. They are talking to convince people to give them money.
The more I see of crowdfunded efforts, the more I think that these are just third-rate salesmen posing as developers.
Yea you are right but credit where credit is due it is damm impressive
that VR have kept this scam going for as long as they have, just through
talking heads.
I thought Pantheon would have gone the way of Chronicles of
Elyria by this. Kudos to VR for keeping
it going this long.
I'm one to voice a negative opinion about a company. But, VR started with some quality developers and some degree of integrity. Its just that they appear to be following the lead of other crowdfunding efforts that concerns me. The difference between Pantheon and CoE is that Pantheon started as a passion project, CoE appears to have always been a grab for customer's wallets. In reality, no one should be trying to emulate CoE/SBS. That's just not good for players.
Thank you for the response Mendel. You state that Pantheon was a passion project
and not a cash grab, if this was the case, then why did the lead dev steal 45K
from the crowdfunding campaign back in 2013.
Link below
Pantheon was always a cash grab, exploiting the dreams of
old school MMORPG gamers. However, I do
see a glimmer of hope in you posts. I
think people like you are beginning to wake up. I just hope more will follow.
Don't mistake personal weakness for greed. Pantheon didn't start out as a ploy to separate people from their cash. Originally, there was the hope (I'd suggest misguided hope) to create a successor to EQ1. It seemed to have been a passion project far more than an out-and-out cash grab. It is just trending towards the cash grab tactics used by other development projects.
Project Gorgon made by 2 people using unity assets offered the beta for free was a passion project. Salem, Tale of Toast, Reign of Darkness made by 2, 2 & 1 guy were passion projects. This game has pledges for 1k and the cheapest pledge is $50 for a game that is STILL in pre-alpha with not even a way for a person who pledges 1k to test the game.
When you go to Pantheon's FAQ and search for ETA here's what pops up...
"What is the ETA for external testing"
Answer >>> "The goal is that soon this year (2017) the very first group of
players (pre-alpha pledgers only-- not alpha pledgers) will begin
to be invited to help test."
That was 2017 and it's not closer to 2020 almost at 2021... they did not even bother to change the FAQ in 3 years...
Next in FAQ "What are the approximate timeframes for alpha, beta and commercial release"
Answer >>> "As of December 2017, Patheon entered into pre-alpha. The dates for alpha, beta and launch are yet to be announced"
That's right, the game is STILL in pre-alpha from December 2017 let that sink in...
Don't worry though cause if you're feeling anxious about actually wanting to play the game you can pop over to their shop and buy a $30 t-shirt and give them even more money...
The pledges from this game probably pay for the lives of every single "dev" on this team without them ever having to even provide their backers with a demo...
They can have streams 5 days a week and have QNA every hour of every day but until they provide any type of public playable game they are just trading a bunch of words for people's cash and that to me is a scam no matter how much I want this game not to be.
My position remains the same - let me know when 2 happens - until then /snooze
as @mendel noted above - until 2 happens - it's a lot of talking heads
I think, as a crowd funded game, they are incentivized to talk about the game.
if the don't talk about it they get people screaming and crying that they are keeping people in the dark. If they do talk about it they get people unhappy because they didn't cover what they wanted to hear.
You also don't sell snake oil without a salesman. That's all that's happening; talk. They are talking to convince people to give them money.
The more I see of crowdfunded efforts, the more I think that these are just third-rate salesmen posing as developers.
Yea you are right but credit where credit is due it is damm impressive
that VR have kept this scam going for as long as they have, just through
talking heads.
I thought Pantheon would have gone the way of Chronicles of
Elyria by this. Kudos to VR for keeping
it going this long.
I'm one to voice a negative opinion about a company. But, VR started with some quality developers and some degree of integrity. Its just that they appear to be following the lead of other crowdfunding efforts that concerns me. The difference between Pantheon and CoE is that Pantheon started as a passion project, CoE appears to have always been a grab for customer's wallets. In reality, no one should be trying to emulate CoE/SBS. That's just not good for players.
Thank you for the response Mendel. You state that Pantheon was a passion project
and not a cash grab, if this was the case, then why did the lead dev steal 45K
from the crowdfunding campaign back in 2013.
Link below
Pantheon was always a cash grab, exploiting the dreams of
old school MMORPG gamers. However, I do
see a glimmer of hope in you posts. I
think people like you are beginning to wake up. I just hope more will follow.
Don't mistake personal weakness for greed. Pantheon didn't start out as a ploy to separate people from their cash. Originally, there was the hope (I'd suggest misguided hope) to create a successor to EQ1. It seemed to have been a passion project far more than an out-and-out cash grab. It is just trending towards the cash grab tactics used by other development projects.
Project Gorgon made by 2 people using unity assets offered the beta for free was a passion project. Salem, Tale of Toast, Reign of Darkness made by 2, 2 & 1 guy were passion projects. This game has pledges for 1k and the cheapest pledge is $50 for a game that is STILL in pre-alpha with not even a way for a person who pledges 1k to test the game.
When you go to Pantheon's FAQ and search for ETA here's what pops up...
"What is the ETA for external testing"
Answer >>> "The goal is that soon this year (2017) the very first group of
players (pre-alpha pledgers only-- not alpha pledgers) will begin
to be invited to help test."
That was 2017 and it's not closer to 2020 almost at 2021... they did not even bother to change the FAQ in 3 years...
Next in FAQ "What are the approximate timeframes for alpha, beta and commercial release"
Answer >>> "As of December 2017, Patheon entered into pre-alpha. The dates for alpha, beta and launch are yet to be announced"
That's right, the game is STILL in pre-alpha from December 2017 let that sink in...
Don't worry though cause if you're feeling anxious about actually wanting to play the game you can pop over to their shop and buy a $30 t-shirt and give them even more money...
The pledges from this game probably pay for the lives of every single "dev" on this team without them ever having to even provide their backers with a demo...
They can have streams 5 days a week and have QNA every hour of every day but until they provide any type of public playable game they are just trading a bunch of words for people's cash and that to me is a scam no matter how much I want this game not to be.
To me that's the opposite of a scam or cash grab.
Pantheon has a high price for pre-alpha testing access and no announcement of any future test or launch date. They aren't selling in-game advantages through a cash shop.
So it's actually quite simple... Either you support the idea of the game and are willing to put some money down to help it succeed. Or you can wait patiently until it's ready to play publicly. There is no pressure to pledge now and get in-game P2W items at launch.
Sure you might think it's overpriced, but that doesn't make it a scam or cash grab. You know exactly what you're getting if you pledge to Pantheon.
You know exactly what you're getting if you pledge to Pantheon.
That's not really true though once you realize how much the devs have said over the years that is entirely false. People expect what they are told to be reasonably accurate when they donate. VR is full of empty promises. They have been lying to the community for years. It keeps the donations coming in.
You know exactly what you're getting if you pledge to Pantheon.
That's not really true though once you realize how much the devs have said over the years that is entirely false. People expect what they are told to be reasonably accurate when they donate. VR is full of empty promises. They have been lying to the community for years. It keeps the donations coming in.
This comment is way off base. I have been following this game long before I pledged. I ended up pledging after watching the progression path followed from info VR said they were doing next. There has always been follow through and often them going beyond what was promised. They have been up front, even when it has been negative, even with their struggles they are currently having. When talking about new features and systems, they have showed them off. Also game play videos have not just been watching an avatar killing trash mobs but fully functioning content, many of them being 1-2hrs of many classes doing a dungeon run. Showing content people have been asking for, when asking for a game like EQ1 thats modern.
You know exactly what you're getting if you pledge to Pantheon.
That's not really true though once you realize how much the devs have said over the years that is entirely false. People expect what they are told to be reasonably accurate when they donate. VR is full of empty promises.
"Entirely false", that's a bold claim. Can you give a specific example?
In my experience, people's expectations are often the problem. We can all be guilty of it. We have in their heads how long a game should take to complete or what features should be added and when, and when a company inevitably fails to meet those "expectation" we're disappointed. But if we were to look back at what was originally said by Visionary Realms, we'd realize we added our own bias to the message to create those inaccurate expectations.
No one is perfect. But I feel like VR has been better than most at trying to manage expectations. Of course, there are always some people whose expectations can't be managed!
In my experience, people's expectations are often the problem. We can all be guilty of it. We have in their heads how long a game should take to complete or what features should be added and when, and when a company inevitably fails to meet those "expectation" we're disappointed. But if we were to look back at what was originally said by Visionary Realms, we'd realize we added our own bias to the message to create those inaccurate expectations.
No one is perfect. But I feel like VR has been better than most at trying to manage expectations. Of course, there are always some people whose expectations can't be managed!
"At PAX East 2018, it was announced that Pantheon would be in alpha by the end of the year. However, in August 2018, Visionary Realms walked back that claim, saying alpha would be delayed in order to bring the game closer to "launch-quality in art and polish.[4]"
Devs set expectations to an extend as well. So as far as expectations go, there is enough blame for both sides (players and devs).
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, with inaccurate expectations leading to disappointment.
Go back and look closely at what was actually said...
Of course, the Wikipedia quote doesn't say "should". It says "would", which is an inaccurate representation of what was actually said. And no mention about the "When we're ready trumps everything".
And it wasn't walked back in August. It was clarified immediately by Brad McQuaid on April 7, two hours after Bazgrim made his tweet.
In my experience, people's expectations are often the problem. We can all be guilty of it. We have in their heads how long a game should take to complete or what features should be added and when, and when a company inevitably fails to meet those "expectation" we're disappointed. But if we were to look back at what was originally said by Visionary Realms, we'd realize we added our own bias to the message to create those inaccurate expectations.
No one is perfect. But I feel like VR has been better than most at trying to manage expectations. Of course, there are always some people whose expectations can't be managed!
"At PAX East 2018, it was announced that Pantheon would be in alpha by the end of the year. However, in August 2018, Visionary Realms walked back that claim, saying alpha would be delayed in order to bring the game closer to "launch-quality in art and polish.[4]"
Devs set expectations to an extend as well. So as far as expectations go, there is enough blame for both sides (players and devs).
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, with inaccurate expectations leading to disappointment.
Go back and look closely at what was actually said...
Of course, your Wikipedia quote doesn't say "should". It says "would", which is an inaccurate representation of what was actually said. And no mention about the "When we're ready trumps everything".
And it wasn't only walked back in August. It was clarified immediately by Brad McQuaid on April 7, two hours after Bazgrim made his tweet.
Again, there was no misleading here. Just not being able to meet their goals because of funding issues. They were very forward why they didnt reach their goals. As I said in the post above, they have been very forward even when things are not going as planned. Its common for MMOs to get delayed, even the big boys like Blizzard, Mythic, NCsoft, Anet and so on have delayed content. If this is your big reason not to trust them, I would suggest you stop following every studio on the planet.
You know exactly what you're getting if you pledge to Pantheon.
That's not really true though once you realize how much the devs have said over the years that is entirely false. People expect what they are told to be reasonably accurate when they donate. VR is full of empty promises.
"Entirely false", that's a bold claim. Can you give a specific example?
Too many examples to list. Brad/VR said they would be is alaph by 2015 please see link below.
I quote "Chris and Brad have mentioned this a few times that Alpha 1 was their major development goal for 2015 and its good to see they are still on track"
Brad indicated that he could make an MMO for 800K.
I could go on and on, this game has gold bricking SCAM written all over it, how can you people be so gullible
Ya that was back when Brad was running the company. He had personal problems and back then. I would have nothing to do with Pantheon. Laughing at a man who had addiction issues I dont find funny. Brad came to realize he was not the right person to run VR and had nothing to do with VR other then help develop his vision. No one can say thats not something he is good at. VR changed a lot after Brad was just a developer.
EDIT: At the time when Brad was running things. I would have nothing to do with backing this game. It was after the management change you see their focus and direction. Thats when I backed Pantheon.
Of course, your Wikipedia quote doesn't say "should". It says "would", which is an inaccurate representation of what was actually said. And no mention about the "When we're ready trumps everything".
And it wasn't only walked back in August. It was clarified immediately by Brad McQuaid on April 7, two hours after Bazgrim made his tweet.
Again, there was no misleading here. Just not being able to meet their goals because of funding issues. They were very forward why they didnt reach their goals. As I said in the post above, they have been very forward even when things are not going as planned. Its common for MMOs to get delayed, even the big boys like Blizzard, Mythic, NCsoft, Anet and so on have delayed content. If this is your big reason not to trust them, I would suggest you stop following every studio on the planet.
Agreed, in this case it was my fault interpreting this badly and not doing my due diligence correctly (though I still believe that in other cases it is the studios setting up unrealistic expectations as well).
And to clarify, I did not imply they tried to mislead. I simply do not know enough to know if that's the case or not - you guys seem to know more. Regardless, 2 years off from the target and going is still a large margin of error.
Ya, they have been set backs from their target because of funding. VR does not seem to get how to sell their game like other companies like Ashes of Creation for instance. As a fan for years I have been making posts about them making a merch store and they only just launch one a few months ago.
They made a post a little over a year ago where the spoke about how they have switched development modes. The mode they were in after Brad stepped down was, fast paced that burns money fast. VR switched to a slow paced development that matched the funding they were getting from fans and angel investors. This would allow them to make 2 x the content on the same money. They were open that they switched to this to make sure the game released. If they got more funding they would ramp up production then. Again, they have been very open with what they are doing.
These are responses from people who haven't been following closely enough from the beginning. I'm busy now. Maybe in the next couple days I'll put together a list of empty promises from VR.
Off the top of my head it includes things like alpha/beta dates, updated forums, updated atlas, updated faq etc. Its a pretty extensive list if you have been following everyday since the start.
These are responses from people who haven't been following closely enough from the beginning. I'm busy now. Maybe in the next couple days I'll put together a list of empty promises from VR.
Off the top of my head it includes things like alpha/beta dates, updated forums, updated atlas, updated faq etc. Its a pretty extensive list if you have been following everyday since the start.
Ya the update for the Website is coming soon. Was announced in this video.
These are responses from people who haven't been following closely enough from the beginning. I'm busy now. Maybe in the next couple days I'll put together a list of empty promises from VR.
Off the top of my head it includes things like alpha/beta dates, updated forums, updated atlas, updated faq etc. Its a pretty extensive list if you have been following everyday since the start.
Looking forward to this list of empty "promises". Please include the original quote so we can confirm if it was actually a promise or not.
Thank you for the response Mendel. You state that Pantheon was a passion project
and not a cash grab, if this was the case, then why did the lead dev steal 45K
from the crowdfunding campaign back in 2013.
Link below
Pantheon was always a cash grab, exploiting the dreams of
old school MMORPG gamers. However, I do
see a glimmer of hope in you posts. I
think people like you are beginning to wake up. I just hope more will follow.
dude, give it up.
He thought they were going to get a certain amount of money so he (and he shouldn't of done this) took some for his medical bills.
He ended up paying it back. This is old, old, old news.
It might also help and clarify things if you read the whole article.
The message stated, “McQuaid received $45k out of the $147k raised with the remainder, plus stock/equity in the company, going to the team (and a small amount to attorney fees and other incidentals). All had bills to pay, most had been out of work since Sept. 2013, and it was a tough time financially for both McQuaid and the entire team (many took on other part time jobs as well, so while a lot of work was indeed done on ‘Pantheon,’ it wasn’t as much as would have been achieved had the company sufficient funds for an office and full time employees.”
“McQuaid regrets taking any money and ‘counting his chickens before they hatch;’ in other words, until the funding was actually in the bank, McQuaid shouldn’t have counted on it and, despite being cash poor, with medical and other bills piling, should have not taken any money out of the company until funding was in the bank.”
He then went on to express that he was sorry for how it happened and is planning on liquidating personal assets to put the funds back into the project.”
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
You'll see more Rockstar threads in one week than Pantheon in 3-6 months.Rockstar advertises here EVERY single day.
Crowfall was after money,they were spamming us with pointless threads.CU imo is not a cash grab but also not a game that will be any good lol.
Money is and always will be the defining point from Indie to AAA.Not having enough employees or money means the focus shifts to pvp.This team has not done that as pvp is the EASY WAY out,this team continues to build a mmorpg.However they are are imo too focused on rehashing EQ,a huge mistake imo but i get it,this is what they know best,this is their mindset,so it works for them.
I would never try and sell a game that is same old new skin,it works sometimes financially but to me a waste of time,i don't want to play any game that is same old reskinned.I want new exciting ideas,i want a BETTER game world,better npc's,better content than just simple quests and sadly this team will not be able to deliver the game i want to play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
VR is full of empty promises. They have been lying to the community for years. It keeps the donations coming in.
EDIT: At the time when Brad was running things. I would have nothing to do with backing this game. It was after the management change you see their focus and direction. Thats when I backed Pantheon.
They made a post a little over a year ago where the spoke about how they have switched development modes. The mode they were in after Brad stepped down was, fast paced that burns money fast. VR switched to a slow paced development that matched the funding they were getting from fans and angel investors. This would allow them to make 2 x the content on the same money. They were open that they switched to this to make sure the game released. If they got more funding they would ramp up production then. Again, they have been very open with what they are doing.
Off the top of my head it includes things like alpha/beta dates, updated forums, updated atlas, updated faq etc.
Its a pretty extensive list if you have been following everyday since the start.
Looking forward to this list of empty "promises". Please include the original quote so we can confirm if it was actually a promise or not.
He thought they were going to get a certain amount of money so he (and he shouldn't of done this) took some for his medical bills.
He ended up paying it back. This is old, old, old news.
It might also help and clarify things if you read the whole article.
The message stated, “McQuaid received $45k out of the $147k raised with the remainder, plus stock/equity in the company, going to the team (and a small amount to attorney fees and other incidentals). All had bills to pay, most had been out of work since Sept. 2013, and it was a tough time financially for both McQuaid and the entire team (many took on other part time jobs as well, so while a lot of work was indeed done on ‘Pantheon,’ it wasn’t as much as would have been achieved had the company sufficient funds for an office and full time employees.”
“McQuaid regrets taking any money and ‘counting his chickens before they hatch;’ in other words, until the funding was actually in the bank, McQuaid shouldn’t have counted on it and, despite being cash poor, with medical and other bills piling, should have not taken any money out of the company until funding was in the bank.”
He then went on to express that he was sorry for how it happened and is planning on liquidating personal assets to put the funds back into the project.”
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo