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When you think of a post WoW Faction based PvP MMO what comes to mind?

MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,387
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
When you think of a "post WoW", Faction based PvP MMO what comes to mind?

I had some observations on something, but I would like to see what comes up for others first. 

This not a jab at WoW, but I was using that as a date of reference. 

Philosophy of MMO Game Design

[Deleted User]
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Comments

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,754
    Warhammer I guess
    [Deleted User]
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,976
    edited July 2020
    They do exist but how important is the faction? In a RvR game its very important but trumping even that is what sort of PvP is there? If you have BG/Scenario/Hutball type of  PvP, the PvP is distorted so the faction mechanics become secondary or even meaningless. I find it hard to see how large scale, more time consuming, more difficult to reach gameplay stands up against quick, small, queue and teleport in gameplay. That's more important than the number of factions, is it RvR or Arena and so on.
    YashaXGorwe
  • RemaliRemali Member RarePosts: 914
    Warhammer and aion first come to mind
    [Deleted User]
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,505
    ArcheAge

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Jamar870Jamar870 Member UncommonPosts: 570
    Aion

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    edited July 2020
    Kyleran said:
    ArcheAge
    I didn't see your usual smiley face but I hope you're being sarcastic.

    Archeage undermines the whole faction concept by letting you kill your own faction too. It's faction based by appointment occasionally in designated zones and FFA the rest of the time.

    Also... DAoC showed quite well why 3 factions are better than 2 since you can never 100% relax when you have one faction locked down because the other one could and usually is up to something you should also be paying attention to.

    The only games I can think of that have done 3-sided faction wars well since WOW released are GW2 and ESO, neither of which is as good at it as DAoC was. It's also a stretch to call GW2 faction-based since they do a more gamy server v. server v. server thing.

    And I agree with those saying that coping with imbalanced factions instead of clones of yours is way more fun and pulls players in a faction together. Seeking that mythical perfect balance between factions or between classes is a waste of time for games that are not meant to be 1v1. In many v. many PvP that hardly matters unless it's totally out of whack... I'm thinking of you Stungard.



    YashaX
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,605
    warhammer online, mostly because it is released just a few years apart from wow.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    ESO
    YashaX
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,706
    Like others, Warhammer.


    Some others include faction-based pvp, like ESO, but as it's not the main focus, I wouldn't describe them as PvP MMOs.


    I also don't think WAR did it very well. Only 2 factions guarantees constant population imbalance issues, plus the rampant vertical progression makes it a pretty shit game most of the time.

    However, when you can get into a "balanced" fight, thats when the game shines. The combat mechanics have a good amount of depth to them, so in a balanced fight, player skill really counts for a lot. Its just that balanced fights are extremely rare.
    bcbullyGorwe
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    WAR. I did not care for WAR, generally. But it had cool faction concepts, I thought.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,754
    I always thought WoW would have been better with a third faction....A neutral that hates both Alliance and the Horde.
    [Deleted User]
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,006
    GW2 if that counts
    YashaX

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Vinterkrig said:
    The thing about DAOC"s 3 faction system was all 3 factions had entirely different class and group makeups giving diversity in gameplay, something almost all games after has lacked.

    Warhammer Online failed to do what DAOC did not because of two faction but poor implementation of the "RvR lakes" which were full of chokepoints, keep flips were easy and became a flip loop..mostly PvDoor.

    ESO, GW2 could have been great but it was blob vs blob zerg aoe spamfests and mediocre keep flipping, which also ended up being a lot of pvdoor...but the pvp was mostly zerg based not skill. 



    I don't really see the appeal or benefit of having different classes on each faction, its just a flavor thing not something that makes the RvR intrinsically better.

    I disagree with your assessment of ESO's rvr as well. Pvdoor only happens if there is no one online, or one faction massively outnumbers the others. There is also ample scope to play and be effective outside of running in a ball group, and group-based play in itself requires a lot of skill and strategy to be of any use anyway.
    Iselin[Deleted User]
    ....
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited July 2020
    Xodic said:
    When I think of post WoW faction based PvP MMOs, I think of how much I despise MMOs now... I really did try, I came up with Gloria Victis before I went down the rabbit hole.

    Why am I here? I don't know, hoping for a miracle I guess.
    I think that is the same boat as most others,just hoping for a miracle to happen while we endure bad game after bad game.
    We are seldom even seeing mmo's anymore,most are just games from every corner of the shed.The mmo's we do see are not even played as mmo's,more like single player games with a login screen.
    I don't even bother caring about factions games,devs are too lazy to do them with any effort 2-3 factions is all we ever see,try another 10+ factions and i might pay attention.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ShaniaRebornShaniaReborn Member UncommonPosts: 54
    edited July 2020
    When you think of a "post WoW", Faction based PvP MMO what comes to mind?

    I had some observations on something, but I would like to see what comes up for others first. 

    This not a jab at WoW, but I was using that as a date of reference. 
    There can't be a "post WoW" since WoW is alive, well and still King of the Mountain when it comes to concurrent subscription based MMORPGs.  Last financial report for WoW, they did over $2 Billion dollars the last fiscal year.  Some say WoW is dead, but $2 Billion says otherwise.
  • ShaniaRebornShaniaReborn Member UncommonPosts: 54
    Wizardry said:
    Xodic said:
    When I think of post WoW faction based PvP MMOs, I think of how much I despise MMOs now... I really did try, I came up with Gloria Victis before I went down the rabbit hole.

    Why am I here? I don't know, hoping for a miracle I guess.
    I think that is the same boat as most others,just hoping for a miracle to happen while we endure bad game after bad game.
    We are seldom even seeing mmo's anymore,most are just games from every corner of the shed.The mmo's we do see are not even played as mmo's,more like single player games with a login screen.
    I don't even bother caring about factions games,devs are too lazy to do them with any effort 2-3 factions is all we ever see,try another 10+ factions and i might pay attention.
    Damn, Wiz!  Stop saying stuff like this.  I hate it when we agree.  LOL
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,505
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ArcheAge
    I didn't see your usual smiley face but I hope you're being sarcastic.

    Archeage undermines the whole faction concept by letting you kill your own faction too. It's faction based by appointment occasionally in designated zones and FFA the rest of the time.

    Also... DAoC showed quite well why 3 factions are better than 2 since you can never 100% relax when you have one faction locked down because the other one could and usually is up to something you should also be paying attention to.

    The only games I can think of that have done 3-sided faction wars well since WOW released are GW2 and ESO, neither of which is as good at it as DAoC was. It's also a stretch to call GW2 faction-based since they do a more gamy server v. server v. server thing.

    And I agree with those saying that coping with imbalanced factions instead of clones of yours is way more fun and pulls players in a faction together. Seeking that mythical perfect balance between factions or between classes is a waste of time for games that are not meant to be 1v1. In many v. many PvP that hardly matters unless it's totally out of whack... I'm thinking of you Stungard.



    OK, how about Aion, or Rift even?

    I even played on Vanguard's faction servers at launch.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ArcheAge
    I didn't see your usual smiley face but I hope you're being sarcastic.

    Archeage undermines the whole faction concept by letting you kill your own faction too. It's faction based by appointment occasionally in designated zones and FFA the rest of the time.

    Also... DAoC showed quite well why 3 factions are better than 2 since you can never 100% relax when you have one faction locked down because the other one could and usually is up to something you should also be paying attention to.

    The only games I can think of that have done 3-sided faction wars well since WOW released are GW2 and ESO, neither of which is as good at it as DAoC was. It's also a stretch to call GW2 faction-based since they do a more gamy server v. server v. server thing.

    And I agree with those saying that coping with imbalanced factions instead of clones of yours is way more fun and pulls players in a faction together. Seeking that mythical perfect balance between factions or between classes is a waste of time for games that are not meant to be 1v1. In many v. many PvP that hardly matters unless it's totally out of whack... I'm thinking of you Stungard.



    OK, how about Aion, or Rift even?

    I even played on Vanguard's faction servers at launch.
    What about them? Just standard PvE games with largely pointless tacked-on PvP with no real objectives or consequences.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ShaniaRebornShaniaReborn Member UncommonPosts: 54
    remsleep said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ArcheAge
    I didn't see your usual smiley face but I hope you're being sarcastic.

    Archeage undermines the whole faction concept by letting you kill your own faction too. It's faction based by appointment occasionally in designated zones and FFA the rest of the time.


    The ability to kill your own faction is what made it awesome - because there's always that one guild or a few toxic people on my own side that I always want to murder - happens in every game - and not being able to kill your own shit-players - that's a huge design flaw.


    So any game that allows bad apples to be thrown into the compost no matter what side they are on - it's a good thing

    Should be called a detox option

    uh huh... with you being the judge, jury and executioner of said bad apples... what could possibly go wrong?  LOL
    YashaXIselin
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    remsleep said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    ArcheAge
    I didn't see your usual smiley face but I hope you're being sarcastic.

    Archeage undermines the whole faction concept by letting you kill your own faction too. It's faction based by appointment occasionally in designated zones and FFA the rest of the time.


    The ability to kill your own faction is what made it awesome - because there's always that one guild or a few toxic people on my own side that I always want to murder - happens in every game - and not being able to kill your own shit-players - that's a huge design flaw.


    So any game that allows bad apples to be thrown into the compost no matter what side they are on - it's a good thing

    Should be called a detox option

    Usually its the "bad apples" that rise to the top in those sort of games, largely because there is little incentive not to be an ahole, and the game rewards who can grind the most pve and gear up the fastest. 
    Kyleran
    ....
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    OK, how about Aion, or Rift even?

    I even played on Vanguard's faction servers at launch.
    What about them? Just standard PvE games with largely pointless tacked-on PvP with no real objectives or consequences.
    I remember Aion being discussed as a game with a significant PvP scene. Seems it even has objective-based and OWPVP:

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Player_vs._Player

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Siege

    ranks etc. Seems to me very similar to GW2 WvW or ESO Cyrodiil.
    Yeah you're right. I shouldn't have lumped Aion with the other ones - they did have specific PvP objectives in a couple of zones.

    I played Rift on a PvP server and after a while it was more common to wave at each other and carry on questing than actually PvPing when the game put you in areas where both factions had quests. It was very much WoW PvP server style PvP where you just did it presumably for fun and no other reason.

    And Vanguard I have never thought of as a PvP game at all.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,505
    Iselin said:
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    OK, how about Aion, or Rift even?

    I even played on Vanguard's faction servers at launch.
    What about them? Just standard PvE games with largely pointless tacked-on PvP with no real objectives or consequences.
    I remember Aion being discussed as a game with a significant PvP scene. Seems it even has objective-based and OWPVP:

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Player_vs._Player

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Siege

    ranks etc. Seems to me very similar to GW2 WvW or ESO Cyrodiil.
    Yeah you're right. I shouldn't have lumped Aion with the other ones - they did have specific PvP objectives in a couple of zones.

    I played Rift on a PvP server and after a while it was more common to wave at each other and carry on questing than actually PvPing when the game put you in areas where both factions had quests. It was very much WoW PvP server style PvP where you just did it presumably for fun and no other reason.

    And Vanguard I have never thought of as a PvP game at all.
    Honestly I view all PVP MMORPGS without significant penalties for dying to be "just for funzies" with little purpose.

    Hence why I played on Mordred in DAOC, and enjoyed EVE for 10 years.


    [Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    OK, how about Aion, or Rift even?

    I even played on Vanguard's faction servers at launch.
    What about them? Just standard PvE games with largely pointless tacked-on PvP with no real objectives or consequences.
    I remember Aion being discussed as a game with a significant PvP scene. Seems it even has objective-based and OWPVP:

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Player_vs._Player

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Siege

    ranks etc. Seems to me very similar to GW2 WvW or ESO Cyrodiil.
    Yeah you're right. I shouldn't have lumped Aion with the other ones - they did have specific PvP objectives in a couple of zones.

    I played Rift on a PvP server and after a while it was more common to wave at each other and carry on questing than actually PvPing when the game put you in areas where both factions had quests. It was very much WoW PvP server style PvP where you just did it presumably for fun and no other reason.

    And Vanguard I have never thought of as a PvP game at all.
    Honestly I view all PVP MMORPGS without significant penalties for dying to be "just for funzies" with little purpose.

    Hence why I played on Mordred in DAOC, and enjoyed EVE for 10 years.


    To each their own but I expect more from the games I take seriously. I know many don't care about story, settings and lore but they're crucial elements to me and I expect just as much quality put into that aspect for the PvP parts as I do for the PvE.

    Otherwise I'd just play Tetris. :)
    Kyleran[Deleted User]
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    Iselin said:
    tzervo said:
    Iselin said:
    Kyleran said:
    OK, how about Aion, or Rift even?

    I even played on Vanguard's faction servers at launch.
    What about them? Just standard PvE games with largely pointless tacked-on PvP with no real objectives or consequences.
    I remember Aion being discussed as a game with a significant PvP scene. Seems it even has objective-based and OWPVP:

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Player_vs._Player

    https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Siege

    ranks etc. Seems to me very similar to GW2 WvW or ESO Cyrodiil.
    Yeah you're right. I shouldn't have lumped Aion with the other ones - they did have specific PvP objectives in a couple of zones.

    I played Rift on a PvP server and after a while it was more common to wave at each other and carry on questing than actually PvPing when the game put you in areas where both factions had quests. It was very much WoW PvP server style PvP where you just did it presumably for fun and no other reason.

    And Vanguard I have never thought of as a PvP game at all.
    Honestly I view all PVP MMORPGS without significant penalties for dying to be "just for funzies" with little purpose.

    Hence why I played on Mordred in DAOC, and enjoyed EVE for 10 years.


    To each their own but I expect more from the games I take seriously. I know many don't care about story, settings and lore but they're crucial elements to me and I expect just as much quality put into that aspect for the PvP parts as I do for the PvE.

    Otherwise I'd just play Tetris. :)
    Tetris 99 is actually some of the most hardcore PVP I have ever played, its insanity.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • ringdanyringdany Member UncommonPosts: 189
    edited October 2020
    Post WoW RvR style mmos...

    hm.. the RvR genre is quite well known:
    Champions of Regnum
    GW2
    DAOC
    Warhammer Return for Reckoning
    Conquerors Blade
    ESO has some form of faction war
    Gloria Victis, Mount & Blade 

    Of all of the above, I prefer Champions of Regnum. f2p, simple gfx, very busy wars, proven fun in pvp.

    There are a number of other city builder style faction mmos. Like Shadowbane. There's a new one emerging right now, whose name i've forgotten.
    [Deleted User]
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