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Star Citizen Roadmap Roundup Sees Several Cards Move to Polishing

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  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,436
    Babuinix said:
    lahnmir said:
    ><

    It absolutely doesn't work the way around, because I'm writing about a game I backed, play and follow development closely for 8 years. The same can't be said about 99% of the posters here.

    So excuse me if I feel I have a higher ground of knowledge about it when discussing it and can pin point the flaws of the many arguments we have here.

    - The ones getting annoyed by me posting the news that a video-company making another million to invest in it's game production are most likely the same ones who shat on said company preaching it's collapse back in 2015 and that around the Crytek lawsuit were saying the dev's were gonna be thrown in jail while backers were suckers lol So Boo F'ing hoo if they get annoyed by watching the company make millions year after year just I said they would back then. Rinse & Repeat.

    - A failed deadline is part of every game in development. Throwing it as an insult is showcasing ignorance about game development. I don't think I need to showcase more or better examples.


    No it's not the end of it all. It's a direct, unbiased and straightforward way of seeing how many players are streaming it and how many are watching it. It's not supposed to represent ALL the population of gamers but a sub-section of it. And I like to pull it specially because it's objective, factual data accessible to everyone and specially to counter the trolls that try to say there's nothing to play or try to compare it's merits with NMS/Elite/EVE.

    - Comparisons require context. Different games, just like any media. Music albums, Books, Movies. Can and will vary immensely in budget or time to release depending on the ambition or specific conditions of the project.

    If you wanna do comparisons you need to right context and specially know all the facts and reasons for why X took Y time or spent Z more.

    Most people who throw that card are just rehashing the same old ignorances they got from some clickbait headline and don't really care about general knowledge of the game development industry, they just want to feast on some sweet drama for the sake of luls.

    This forum has threads about many other Crowdfunded MMO's. Aren't they going through exactly the same hurdles of delays, changes of scope, cut features every other game goes? All games, all studios, all dev's go through that. It's not special and most certainly not to be used as ammunition to attack a game or it's devs. 

    So there's absolutely a difference between people who like a game, play it and support it while knowing and understanding the hurdles of game development and then there's those who like to shit on them using cheap based in ignorance and negativity. I dunno, maybe It makes them feel special or knowledgable, maybe that's why they get so mad when their ignorance is showcased lol

    - CIG is definitely considered a Indie company as in it's not on the leash of a big publisher. Indie means independent, not small or low bugdget even if those are the majority of the Indie companies we know now. Every big studio/publisher was once a small indie company that grew from there. Sure it's budget is huge for indie companies but for the Big publishers 35$million a month is probably not enough to pay half the people they employ.

    So CIG compared with the established AAA companies is still an underdog if not for the simple fact that they are a new studio and have a whole lot to prove still.

    They absolutely play with money that it's theirs. People gave it to them when they backed the game through crowdfunding. They didn't lend it. That trust was earned through hard work not given magically. 

    I called for that NMS/ED video because I believe games thrive because of their strengths not their flaws. And asking for a 5 minute video compilation of a game at it's best showcases that clearly and objectively.

    And no, pointing out that all those spots will generate a random planet with whatever new colours and shapes isn't new content or features, it's one feature: "you can land on procedurally generated planets". Base building is a feature, animal scans and mining ore is a feature. Landing on planet is a feature, EVA out of your ship is a feature, Driving vehicles is a feature, Engaging in FPS battles is a feature, Managing your equipment and weapons is a feature. Having a multitude of vehicles to drive/fly is content, having cities to explore is content, having mission givers and different missions types is content. Having different weapons is content and so on.

    TLDR: People's expectations and reactions should be contextualized and based on knowledge not ignorance to avoid ignorant remarks. Complaining that an alpha game in development has bugs, bad performance or changed features is like Swimming on lake on the winter and complaining the water is cold.
    Sigh, the points were only there to illustrate the message. But you immediately tackling them does show my issue, no nuance, no reflection, just defending. I am going to stop here though because its a bit like talking to a wall.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • Beholder2kBeholder2k Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Babuinix said:

    And It's exactly because I have the ability to "examine the shortcomings of anything related with Star Citizen" AND compared them with all the shortcomings of other games development that I can provide clear and factual examples of several similarities between different studios and developers whenever someone tries to pushing something as a "problem" that indicates "failure".

    Like Beholder is trying to do below.
    I stated in a reply to you that their awesome engine combined with their revolutionary server tech shouldn't have problems with hundreds of thousands of players in an instance, you asked where the "hundres of thousands" comes from and I quoted you the passage. 
    You now want "instance" to be "location" while I used "instance" in the same context as Roberts did = "main server" or as you put it "universe". Who is twisting the words and grasping at straws again?

    Edit: The further away a developer is from his estimated release date, the more incompetent he looks. If a developer keeps setting dates for release or patches and consistantly keeps missing them for years it is not proper development according to a set plan, it is trial and error. Now answer the call 2014!

    Edit2: To further elaborate on the first edit... take Cyberpunk 2077 for example. Although they postponed it again, it is still within normal development. So far it is not many years off the original release date and they also released top quality products before, which boosts confidence in the developer. 
    CIG on the other hand had trouble with their dates from the start, are still missing a shitload of promissed stuff in the game, and quite frankly still have to proof that SC and SQ42 are as good as they claim it will be.
    They an have an awesome engine (like many other game studios do) and still have "problems with hundreds of thousands of players in a instance", not understanding that is being ignorant about the difficulty of networking in games.

    How many engines do you know that can handle "hundreds of thousands of players in a instance"? lol

    Instance, location, zone, universe, game world. Those are all words that can be used in different contexts and represent the same thing. Don't be disingenuous. The interview is clear enough if you're willing to understand it.

    When they speak of areas they explained server meshing it's all said. They want to make ONE unified game world, made up of several zones/instances/areas dynamically stitched toguether where all the players can coexist in ONE playable area/mega instance/universe.

    That tech is being actively worked as we speak. Server meshing and Networking involves a huge task that it's taking longer than they anticipated. Just like all the other ambitious features that haven't really been made at this scale and graphical fidelity before there are doubters and cynics that use them to cast doubt in what the devs are doing. This is not new to Star Citizen as project since what they're aiming for is so ambitious and has never really been made with cryengine there's always been doubts from the start.
    In my reply to Kyleran, just above my reply to you, I quoted the article section by section. Go read it and then come back and tell me that Roberts wasn't using the word "instance" the same way I used it. You are once again twisting words to make your point.

    They an have an awesome engine (like many other game studios do) and still have "problems with hundreds of thousands of players in a instance", not understanding that is being ignorant about the difficulty of networking in games.
    How many engines do you know that can handle "hundreds of thousands of players in a instance"? lol
    The fact that such an engine does not exist (with the fidelity CIG is going for) combined with CIGs poor track record so far leads me to believe that they are not capable of fulfilling that promise! The day it is in game is the day I stand corrected and not before.

    Instance, location, zone, universe, game world. Those are all words that can be used in different contexts and represent the same thing. Don't be disingenuous. The interview is clear enough if you're willing to understand it.
    You did not understand it if you still want to argue that he was not talking about main server/universe when he said instance. I used his terminology. Go ahead and argue with Erin if you'd like him to use different words next time he gives an interview.

    When they speak of areas they explained server meshing it's all said. They want to make ONE unified game world, made up of several zones/instances/areas dynamically stitched toguether where all the players can coexist in ONE playable area/mega instance/universe.
    This is just more repeating of what I said. They claimed in 2018 that the numbers of simultanious players will go up and it didn't. They've been working on that for a long time now and will have to continue to work on this for a long time plus a shitload of other content (100 star systems anyone? Professions?). Each patch development cycle costing millions and bringing no tangible improvments/progess (look at the coming patch).

    That tech is being actively worked as we speak. Server meshing and Networking involves a huge task that it's taking longer than they anticipated.
    I know that it takes them longer than expected. It always does. That is why I don't believe that they'll get SC to the hundreds of thousands of players in one universe.

    The rest is just the usual wha wha the gaming world hates us.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 2,867
    edited June 29
    lahnmir said:
    Sigh, the points were only there to illustrate the message. But you immediately tackling them does show my issue, no nuance, no reflection, just defending. I am going to stop here though because its a bit like talking to a wall.
    Since I've been explaining the same points over and over for years so I know how you feel :D

    All good though.

    In my reply to Kyleran, just above my reply to you, I quoted the article section by section. Go read it.
    I've read that article when it came out, it's a transcription of a oral interview.

    They refer to hundreds of thousands of players sharing the same universe, not instance. Which in the context of this talk is pertinent since they are using Server Meshing (that could be said instance or zones meshing) to create one huge seamless playable area for ALL the players.

    They've talked about their intentions in detail several time both on community forums and videos: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-is-server-meshing-possible/2110241 

    Like I've said, it's tech that's being actively worked on, and just like the other tech that was once in development for a long time and is now functional in the alpha build, it will be ready when it's ready.


  • Beholder2kBeholder2k Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Babuinix said:
    In my reply to Kyleran, just above my reply to you, I quoted the article section by section. Go read it.
    I've read that article when it came out, it's a transcription of a oral interview.

    They refer to hundreds of thousands of players sharing the same universe, not instance. Which in the context of this talk is pertinent since they are using Server Meshing (that could be said instance or zones meshing) to create one huge seamless playable area for ALL the players.

    They've talked about their intentions in detail several time both on community forums and videos: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/50259/thread/how-is-server-meshing-possible/2110241 

    Like I've said, it's tech that's being actively worked on, and just like the other tech that was once in development for a long time and is now functional in the alpha build, it will be ready when it's ready.


    You read that artice when it came out yet you had to ask me where the "hundreds of thousands of players" came from. Got it.

    Like I've said, it's tech that's being actively worked on, and just like the other tech that was once in development for a long time and is now functional in the alpha build, it will be ready when it's ready. 

    Yes, yes, just like Elevator-Tech, Eat-Through-Helmet-Tech, AI-T-Posing-Tech, Wind-Make-Big-Ship-Go-Woosh-Tech ...
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 2,867
    edited June 30
    Their awesome engine combined with their revolutionary server tech should have no problem then with hundreds of thousands of players per instance displayed in never seen before high-fidelity, right? RIGHT? Oh, still only 50 players  after all this time. 
    Back to hoping for future patches then i guess ...

    The original quote only has "Hundreds of thousands of players".

    The "per instance" was added, wrongly, by you.

    Numbers about Instance numbers are spoken about but in the context of server meshing and it's number fluctuates around the hundreds, not hundreds of thousands, that's mentioned related to the total number across the whole universe aka zone of play that is comprised of many zones/instances dynamically generated and "stiched" toguether.
    Post edited by Babuinix on
  • Beholder2kBeholder2k Member UncommonPosts: 32
    The established number of backers seems to be 1.2 millions. According to you these numbers grow steadily (no need to discuss this, I believe you). 

    What do you think will happen on launch day when all/most of the backers want to play the BDSSE and clearly don't fit into one of the "hundreds of thousands of players" instance/universe? Will they open up a new instance/universe, or will the BDSSE have the players wait in a queu? Doesn't sound very revolutionary if they go with a queu. Hence me posting "per instance".

    I used the word instance in the same way as Erin Roberts did. I already stated in this thread that I used it the same way Roberts did. Additionally I explained it in my reply to Kyleran. Roberts used instance meaning "universe" and room meaning location. So stop arguing as if I meant location with instance. All your (and my) lengthy blabbering could have been avoided had you accepted when I clarified what I meant. 

    You don't argue to have a discussion or to find "the truth". You argue to push the narrative that all is good and that the critics are alway wrong. 


  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,436
    edited June 30
    Erillion said:
    lahnmir said:
    I joined relatively late so I have no clue how the client performed 3+ years back. For the last year or so I have been pretty impressed with performance, I run it on max relatively smooth on an 1070 8gb. I do use an SSD and 32gb of RAM.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir

    If you compare it with that


    do you get comparable values for your rig type ?


    I got some performance increases with tweaking/optimizing my system (there are several guides out there)  and the SSD was by far the biggest jump in performance.



    Have fun


    Sorry, I forgot to reply to your post.

    I checked my performance over the last 24 hours on Ultra at 1920/1080 and the telemetry score is slightly lower than my average performance. Two things to take into account: 1. I have an overclocked system which the graph doesn't measure 2. I was only hanging around in New Babbage taking the subway several times, relatively graphical intensive compared to flying around. This is without any tweaking/optimising and then I get an average of around 35-40 FPS in New Babbage on the highest settings, perfectly acceptable for me. Loading times are well below the average, around 87 seconds to get into the game.

    Two things that did catch my eye looking at the tool. First, the requirements have been increasing with each patch, I do notice this in game as well, 3.7 was smoother for me. Not problematic by itself but I do wonder where we'll end up when we hit stuff like 4.XX. Secondly, loading times have increased dramatically over the last few patches, I do hope they will tackle that.

    Fun fact, the little back and forth here made me realise I hadn't been playing since just before version 3.8 and I am very pleasantly surprised by 3.9. It has come a long way, it still has a long way to go.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir


    Post edited by lahnmir on
    Erillion
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • cpstestcpstest Newbie CommonPosts: 1
    CPS test represents the Click Per Second test. It tends to be a 5-second basic test. You have to click whatever number occasions as could be allowed before time's done. Don't hesitate to attempt the same number of times as you need. Make a point to get your best score (CPS - Click Per Second). As indicated by our large information, the normal CPS is 6.25, and the world record was said to 14.1 as per Google. Individuals may get a somewhat higher score on versatile/tablet than a work area. Would you be able to beat this? 

    If it's not too much trouble don't hesitate to share this test with your companions, and challenge them! 

    Note: You may attempt this test the same number of times as you like. The most noteworthy CPS result speaks to your real CPS. There is an Attempt Again button for you after each endeavor.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 2,867
    The established number of backers seems to be 1.2 millions. According to you these numbers grow steadily (no need to discuss this, I believe you). 

    What do you think will happen on launch day when all/most of the backers want to play the BDSSE and clearly don't fit into one of the "hundreds of thousands of players" instance/universe? Will they open up a new instance/universe, or will the BDSSE have the players wait in a queu? Doesn't sound very revolutionary if they go with a queu. Hence me posting "per instance".

    I used the word instance in the same way as Erin Roberts did. I already stated in this thread that I used it the same way Roberts did. Additionally I explained it in my reply to Kyleran. Roberts used instance meaning "universe" and room meaning location. So stop arguing as if I meant location with instance. All your (and my) lengthy blabbering could have been avoided had you accepted when I clarified what I meant. 

    You don't argue to have a discussion or to find "the truth". You argue to push the narrative that all is good and that the critics are alway wrong. 


    On opening day I assume it will be chaotic like any hyped mmo opening. Probably huge load on servers. We have NewWorld coming up that uses the same Amazon infrastructure so it will be curious to watch how it will hold.

    Star Citizen as a space game has the benefit of having...well a lot of space. I'd imagine they can put the option to spawn in whatever outter space station if/when the main city hubs get too crowded.

    The quote you used when "hundreds of thousands of players" is mentioned is not related to an instance, that's why that phrase doesn't have the word instace in it. You added it to your quotation for whatever reason.
    Beholder2k
  • Beholder2kBeholder2k Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Which quote are you referring to? 
  • PatrickWindich3PatrickWindich3 Newbie CommonPosts: 4
     it’s interesting here
    Erillion
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,215
     it’s interesting here

    Slow day in a Star Citizen thread.

    There have been more ... interesting .... days.

    As you will recognize from quite a few permabanned red names in older threads in the Star Citizen sub-forum here on this website ...


    Have fun
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,260
    Erillion said:
     it’s interesting here

    Slow day in a Star Citizen thread.

    There have been more ... interesting .... days.

    As you will recognize from quite a few permabanned red names in older threads in the Star Citizen sub-forum here on this website ...


    Have fun
    You're talking to a spam bot.
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 2,867
    Which quote are you referring to? 
    Beholder2k said:
    Their awesome engine combined with their revolutionary server tech should have no problem then with hundreds of thousands of players per instance displayed in never seen before high-fidelity, right? RIGHT?
  • Beholder2kBeholder2k Member UncommonPosts: 32
    Babuinix, that was not a quote that was me saying that for the reasons explained above. 
  • ErillionErillion Member EpicPosts: 10,215
    Erillion said:
     it’s interesting here

    Slow day in a Star Citizen thread.

    There have been more ... interesting .... days.

    As you will recognize from quite a few permabanned red names in older threads in the Star Citizen sub-forum here on this website ...


    Have fun
    You're talking to a spam bot.

    The spam bot was not the intended audience ;-)

    And he IS a better audience than some posters i have seen over the years ....



    Have fun
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 2,867
    Babuinix, that was not a quote that was me wrongly  saying that for the reasons explained above. 
    We got it, no harm done. Networking tech is being worked on and it will be ready when it's ready.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,982
    edited June 30
    Babuinix said:
    Babuinix, that was not a quote that was me wrongly  saying that for the reasons explained above. 
    We got it, no harm done. Networking tech is being worked on and it will be ready when it's ready.

    Unless of course, it's never ready, not outside the realm of possibility, wouldn't be the first team to fail to solve this problem.

    Which of course, the longer it drags on, the more probable this outcome will occur.



    Mendel

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,372
    edited July 1
    Kyleran said:
    Babuinix said:
    Babuinix, that was not a quote that was me wrongly  saying that for the reasons explained above. 
    We got it, no harm done. Networking tech is being worked on and it will be ready when it's ready.

    Unless of course, it's never ready, not outside the realm of possibility, wouldn't be the first team to fail to solve this problem.

    Which of course, the longer it drags on, the more probable this outcome will occur.


    Exactly.  At this point the only logical assumption to make is that they may never solve the biggest issues.  In which case they will have to massively scale back on the promises they made to justify the long development cycle.

    Some of their most ardent supporters will still be defending them ten years from now.  So arguing with them is truly pointless.

    I remember David Brevik explaining how you can't simply plan to fix a non optimal engine in the final phase.  It probably applies to network code as well.  POE sort of fixed it after years of a shitty design.  But even they still have a long way to go.
    Mendel
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 2,867
    Kyleran said:
    Babuinix said:
    Babuinix, that was not a quote that was me wrongly  saying that for the reasons explained above. 
    We got it, no harm done. Networking tech is being worked on and it will be ready when it's ready.

    Unless of course, it's never ready, not outside the realm of possibility, wouldn't be the first team to fail to solve this problem.

    Which of course, the longer it drags on, the more probable this outcome will occur.
    The "It's ready when it's ready" already includes that stage of adapting to technical roadblocks. That's why plan B's exist for.
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