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First time you questioned design

AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,029
Do you recall the first time you questioned a design decision in a mmorpg? 

For me in was in EQ. I played a ranger. It was held out an an archer class. But then, when it came to your epic weapon, its was swords, not a bow.

Whether I was right or wrong, it was my first waaaaaaaait a minute moment, when I first ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and stupid.


EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

AlBQuirkyScotRemaliKyleranbcbullyGdemami

Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,264
    Lineage 2 when I saw how many materials of each item were needed to craft something. Thought it was wholly ridiculous.

    2nd time was Lord of the Rings Online when I couldn't enter a cave because I wasn't on the corresponding quest.
    AlBQuirkyAmathe



  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,102
    edited June 12
    EQ1 for me, too. I never got to any "Epic" things like Amathe, but just basic crafting had me scratching my head a few times.

    For a helmet, worn on the head, one needed "fish parts" (I think scales, but could have been something similar). I saw that and went, "Ooooo. That's gonna smell!" I found other "strange things" that went into crafting that had me wondering :)
    AmathetzervoScot

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Not sure I remember the first time I second-guessed some design, as I do it so often these days.

    My personality has always been one to constantly attempt to find the "better way," which sometimes translates into my becoming so preoccupied with the why of things, as they are, that I have a hard time enjoying them as they are.
    AlBQuirkySovrathAmathe

    image
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,113
    ahh , my eternal question about why there are instances in MMORPG .
    AlBQuirky
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,548
    Hard to place the first time, since I do it constantly. I pretty much question design all the time, but it's not always a mean-spirited thing. I do tend to think of games as to how they should be or how they are in relation to what the design goal was.

    To illustrate, here's some of my critiques of games that I like or even love. The severity of the critique is specified.

    Guild Wars 
    Critique - medium
    Overall love of game - 10/10

    Armor stats uninteresting.

    Hexes far too overpowered.

    Hex removal not plentiful or effective enough.


    Guild Wars 2
    Critique - major
    Overall love of game - 8/10

    Build system is too limited.

    Lack of niche skills.

    Gear stats poorly designed.

    High presence of clipping in a fashion-heavy game.

    Lack of weapon dyes are unfortunate in a fashion-heavy game.

    Fire Emblem 3 Houses
    Critique - major
    Overall love of game - 9.5/10

    Class tree poorly designed. Gaping holes like a lack of proper lance infantry classes.

    Grinding systems slow down pace of game. Should have used Bonus Experience from Path of Radiance instead of grinding maps.

    Monastery hub is much too large.

    Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
    Critique - minor
    Overall love of game - 10/10

    Needs additional difficulty option.

    Early game unit deployment limitations are a bit bothersome.

    Combat animations sluggish and haven't aged well.
    AmatheAlBQuirky
  • Jamar870Jamar870 Member UncommonPosts: 436
    Well for me it's Tera's decision to let players bypass story content in the story dungeons.  If you're a casual player and pug often, you will question the reason for doing them other than xp and loot, which most in vendored.

    AlBQuirky
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,911
    Lineage 2 with the way you needed to enhance your weapon with that ammo thing and the fact that the game catered to bots. 

    Then again, that was to maximize profit . . . So.

    Also, runes of magic, screwed up balance between melee and casters, making casters way too strong.

    Every MMO for not being innovative at all. 
    AmatheAlBQuirky
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,496
    As DMKano said, it was my first mmorpg (swg).

    Can't remember the specific time, but I remember questioning the whole doctors buffs design. To me, it just seemed like some weird joke: if you want to complete tough content.....or even just wear armour, you have to spend 10minutes travelling to a doctor and then getting buffed.

    Made no sense.

    In a nice turn of events, I read one of Koster's books last year (selected essays) and it turns out that doctors buffs were actually a bug. The original design called for max 40% buff to stats, but a dev made a mistake and added an extra "0", so buffs could be up to 400%. However, by the time they noticed, a community had already sprung up around doctors buffs, plus Koster was then taken off the project, so they decided to leave it in place.



    Beyond that, I question everything these days! I kinda feel like it's an inevitable response to gaining experience: the more games I play, the more designs I experience, the more easy it is for me to spot mistakes or weird designs, devs repeating mistakes of the past. Same thing happens with movies, tv shows and books.
    AmatheAlBQuirky
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,883
    edited June 13
    For me it was my first MMO, which had a "real world" you started in and the game world you played in. There was not much "real world" at the start but I did think "why waste time on this if we are not playing here". :) 
    Post edited by Scot on
    AmatheAlBQuirky

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

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  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,436
    edited June 12
    I found a double handed axe on a wolf corpse. A serious WTF moment for me the first time that happened.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    AmatheSovrathMadFrenchieAlBQuirkyiixviiiix
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,264
    lahnmir said:
    I found a double handed axe on a wolf corpse. A serious WTF moment for me the first time that happened.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Actually the firs time I showed two friends Lineage 2 (neither of them play video games) I was in an area with the attacking flower things. I killed one and adena dropped.

    One of my friends laughed "really? Money just comes out of plants?"

    He also scoffed at Skyrim when he saw me swimming in metal armor in the frozen north.

    There's a lot that video game players take for the norm or for granted.
    Amatheblueturtle13AlBQuirky



  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,264
    Lineage 2 with the way you needed to enhance your weapon with that ammo thing and the fact that the game catered to bots. 

    Then again, that was to maximize profit . . . So.

    Also, runes of magic, screwed up balance between melee and casters, making casters way too strong.

    Every MMO for not being innovative at all. 
    I don't really think it catered to "bots" per se. 

    When the game launched there were far more actual "farmers" than bots though there were a few people at the time who did bot. That eventually became more prevalent.

    I would say that the game design was such that those who wanted to bypass it sought out botting. 





  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,311
    FileYellow exclamation marksvg - Wikimedia Commons
    AmathecheyaneMadFrenchieScot
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    Warhammer was my first disappointment.  Before that I never gave a thought on a bad mmorpg.... tried to stay positive but everything after that was a down hill battle.  
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,675
     Target runs behind you

    "Target needs to be in front of you"

    Target runs behind you

    "Target needs to be in front of you"

    Target runs behind you

    "Target needs to be in front of you"










    Amatheblueturtle13AlBQuirkyiixviiiix
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 5,548
    edited June 12
    Tiller said:
     Target runs behind you

    "Target needs to be in front of you"

    Target runs behind you

    "Target needs to be in front of you"

    Target runs behind you

    "Target needs to be in front of you"










    Oh god. Line of sight requirements and message spam are one of my pet peeves. There's no excuse for it. The character should auto-turn to attack.

    Rift is even worse with its distance-error messages. Just run my character to the foe and attack, you fucking disgrace of a game.
    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,981
    edited June 12
    Lineage 1, players selected stats while creating characters, and a Wizards prowess at the various aspects of the class such as spell power, mana pool or number of animals they could tame were impacted by the amount of skill points put into each.

    So I decide to create a balanced build to keep my options open but as I did a bit of research I skimped a bit on charisma as most guides advised.

    No issues building a bugbear mage which had castable bugbears which were not considered actual pets like dobies or shepards which had to be tamed, fed regularly and could be leveled up,  permanently die from starvation or not being resurrected in time.

    The number of bugbears one cast was between 1 and 5 based on RNG, and it was pretty easy to get 4 with just a few attempts which made the mage pretty devesating, especially in PVE.

    So NCSoft decides to change the design and limit the number of bugbears based on a characters Charisma, so I found myself limited to a max of 3 with 2 being the normal number I could expect on most occasions.

    Still, I didn't think this was a bad thing in itself, it was the Devs decision to not provide a way to reallocate a characters skill points meaning my only path back to 4 bugbears was to toss out my level 48 character which I had spent many months on and start over.

    Well, there was another way...I quit and started playing DAOC instead....so all good, my Theuri could cast 6 or more pets easy  when fighting...


    AmatheAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,117
    Great topic. Most things I came across I just rolled with. 

    The first thing that comes to mind is raid design in WoW Cataclysm. It went away from skill based performance numbers to pure dumb luck.

    Raiding was always another form of pvp to me. Once encounters were cleared and gear was gained the only reason for me to keep going was performance numbers, mine vs my guildmates. 


    AmatheAlBQuirky
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,958
    My first was Star Wars Galaxies. My second was Star Wars Galaxies. My third was Star Wars Galaxies.... I'll just stop there.
    AmatheAlBQuirky

  • learis1learis1 Member UncommonPosts: 150
    Yeah, it was the first time I spent hours doing a raid in Vanilla WoW, and then thought to myself that I'll have to do this same thing 50 times over to get the gear I want. I didn't really question the design. I more just questioned how I can fit in to mmorpg's, because I basically concluded that I hate the endgame, even though I enjoy many other aspects. 

    Funny enough it's just gotten worse as I've gotten older. I'm less social now and kind of want to just play an mmo solo. I'm in a tiny minority there I know, but luckily WoW actually has a promising solo part of it in the next expansion with Torghast, so I'm excited for that.
    AmatheAlBQuirky

    Mend and Defend

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,512
    edited June 13
    XP given for quests.

    I think people forget what XP stands for>>experience.How did some person designing systems decide that doing a fetch me quest warranted  for example a Ranger becoming more experienced at being a Ranger?
    So i think these people that still continue to do uit are really THAT dumb.What i assume they are thinking is that XP =leveling and that is all it means.So imagine how lost those developers would be if there were no levels.
    bcbullyAmatheAlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,512
    I am sure the yellow marker over the npc head was right about the same time,so we really were introduced to some mmorpg designers that should be working in landscaping and not game design.
    AmatheAlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Member RarePosts: 4,372
    edited June 13
    Well, I didn't buy UO because of it's sub fee so that's technically the first one.

    My second one was why EQ looked so crappy.  But my major question was why design a game where your friends that had been playing a while really only wanted you to play the class they needed most.

    My third one was why SWG didn't launch with space combat and why they were so lame about jedi.

    My first real question in an MMO I bought was why AV wasn't more symmetric.  The alliance had a massive advantage with invaders having to deal with the archers of two towers at once.  I later wondered why they seemed to favor pallies and dwarf priests in raid encounters relative to just shamans on horde. :) 

    On a nitpick level, I hated how a gnome warrior could be as strong as a tauren warrior. LOl
    bcbullyAmatheAlBQuirkyMadFrenchie
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 541
    edited June 26
    Amathe said:
    Do you recall the first time you questioned a design decision in a mmorpg? 

    For me in was in EQ. I played a ranger. It was held out an an archer class. But then, when it came to your epic weapon, its was swords, not a bow.

    Whether I was right or wrong, it was my first waaaaaaaait a minute moment, when I first ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and stupid.



    i don't know for sure. however i do have a memory like your own. i also played a ranger in EQ. i started playing march 1999 on rallos zek. in late 2001 i made a ranger on sullon zek. somewhere between 1999 and 2001 i was in a dungeon and someone was pvping me. they had me rooted. i couldn't hit them with my bow or hit them with my sword. when someone was too close, the bow wouldn't work, and if too far, the sword won't work. they of course were abusing the mechanic. that annoyed me sooooo muhc.

    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    AlBQuirky
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