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Action bar vs. R/T combat

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,010

Both require skill,

Real time..... Needs twitch timing and distance placement along with manual dodge, parry and roll.  Better enhancement in a skill trees often deals with speeding up, strengthen or increase distance for the above attributes.  As the players levels, they notice themselves become stronger and mature more natural, much like a child becomes adult….. This is good.

 

Action bar..... Needs less twitch but more tactical.  Some could argue button mash, but in a well built game this statement holds ZERO VALUE, instead maximum skill SAME AS REAL TIME.  As the player levels they become more diverse with an array of totally new options.  This is how they find excitement….. This is good. 

 

So it all comes down to absolute preference and can't be argued.  Some like Chess with more action, others like Rockem Sockem Robots.  

Both are my definitions, yours may differ.  

 

I would like to pose two questions:

What's your definition of both styles ? 

What's your preference and why ?

Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,536
    edited June 2020
    In a traditional MMORPG how well a player's character performs certain "actions," say blocking, parrying or dodging is determined by how many skill points it has earned or been allocated through leveling, training, or direct assignment.

    Action combat is when a player's direct keyboard responses predominantly determine whether or not the block, parry or dodge is successful or not.

    RNG tends to play a big part in the former, with the odds of a successful outcome increasing as the avatar gains in terms of levels or skill points.

    Action combat tends to have little to no RNG, relying more on the player's timing and precise positioning to determine success or failure and only really improve as the player themselves become more proficient.


    AlBQuirky

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,536
    edited June 2020
    Certain skills such as positioning can greatly affect the outcome in both traditional and action combat models.

    DAOC was definitely a traditional game, but meleeing players had multiple side and back attack styles which often had to performed in specific sequence for maximum effect.

    Action combat games also use such positioning and combinations for great effect, perhaps requiring more precision in exactly where they strike their blows.

    Targeting is another thing, traditional games tend to use more of a lock and fire approach, aka tab targeting, while some action games try to require the player to actually aim their attacks which can miss if not done properly or the opponent moves out of the way.

    So far technical limitations seems to have to prevented most MMORPGS or other online games from using a pure manual targeting approach with most that I've seen making some concessions, delivering more of a hybrid model.
    AlBQuirky

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,896
    In an RPG I have always wanted my character's skill to determine success as much as possible. I would rather that my archer's ability to shoot the apple on top of the child's head be determined by the years HE has spent honing that accuracy as opposed to my ability to hit a pixel.

    So for true RPGs I prefer ActionBar.

    That is not to say that I can't enjoy action combat in a game like Conan Exiles... 
    SovrathAlBQuirkyKyleran

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,388
    Kyleran gave great definitions and examples. I don't think I can add to that.

    I also agree with Slapshot that I play RPGs so my character, not me, is the driving force, be it combat or anything else. I know this is quite "boring" for many players today, but I enjoy it much better.

    I also want to say that I can enjoy more player skilled combat, but not in my RPGs. I enjoy Fallout (3 & NV) and Elder Scrolls (3, 4, 5) "mixed combat." I prefer Morrowind's lockpicking over Oblivion's or Skyrim's minigames. I find myself jumping back and forth between Fallout3 and NV's VAT system for sniping, depending on my mood. I like Skyrim's archery and finding the trajectory for hitting a target. Usually, though, the more I (AlBQuirky) I am involved with combat, the less immersive I feel.

    I'm playing a Role (RPG), not a digitized version of me, though that can be fun :)
    Kyleran

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  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,161
    edited June 2020
    Kyleran said:
    Certain skills such as positioning can greatly affect the outcome in both traditional and action combat models.

    DAOC was definitely a traditional game, but meleeing players had multiple side and back attack styles which often had to performed in specific sequence for maximum effect.

    Action combat games also use such positioning and combinations for great effect, perhaps requiring more precision in exactly where they strike their blows.

    Targeting is another thing, traditional games tend to use more of a lock and fire approach, aka tab targeting, while some action games try to require the player to actually aim their attacks which can miss if not done properly or the opponent moves out of the way.

    So far technical limitations seems to have to prevented most MMORPGS or other online games from using a pure manual targeting approach with most that I've seen making some concessions, delivering more of a hybrid model.
    Agree with everything but the technical limitations. Darkfall did it in 2009 in a massive scale and other games do it today. I believe most games that do a hybrid approach are doing to make it less reliant on player skill while still keeping the feel of targeting. Attempting a “best of both worlds“ approach. 
    Kyleran
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,448
    My definitions:


    Action combat (I dont like the term real-time combat in this case, as the opposite of real-time is turn-based combat) is where the outcome is primarily determined by the physical actions of the player - how well can you aim, how quickly can you react, how quickly can you press buttons.

    A player gets better at action combat by training their body - building up nerve (muscle) memory being the primary method.



    More traditional mmorpg combat (what you've called action bar combat, even tho most action-combat games also have action bars) are where the outcome is primarily determined by the decisions the player makes - do I use my big heal now, or save it for later? Do I blow this cooldown, or hope the healer picks me up?

    A player gets better at traditional combat by increasing their knowledge of the mechanics so that they can make better decisions.




    There is overlap for both systems, and other factors appear too. Both systems can (and often are) completely undermined by stats and vertical progression, which can turn the difficulty from impossible to trivial depending on the player's current power level vs the content. Both systems include physical and decision making challenges, its just the focus on one or the other the determines how we classify them.

    The design of the systems also plays a big part. Whilst traditional systems are supposed to be about decision making, plenty of devs end up designing really shallow mechanics which makes decision making really easy (like SWTOR). Likewise, some action combat games can be really slow, reducing the number of actions the players need to make or giving the players lots of time to react, thus reducing the physical difficulty.



    My preference is definitely for traditional mmorpg combat with a focus on decision making. I like to be mentally engaged with the combat, so a focus on decision making keeps me mentally engaged. I find that with action combat games, they're so easy to figure out that I'm bored within a few hours, after which point it just feels like going through the motions whilst I wait for my body to catch up to my brain. This is the main reason I haven't committed to any mmorpgs for years now: the focus on action combat means im bored within a few days of starting. How do the devs expect me to play for months / years when the primary activity is so mentally dull?!?!?
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,673
    edited June 2020
    I am playing PSO2 now and struggling I tell you, struggling.

    There is this thing where you have to attack again before a red ring around you disappears and for the life of me I think I must be doing it wrong. I cannot tell with the combat. They have so many attacks that is all dependent on twitch and I cannot manage it. I just suck so badly it is embarrassing.

    I am definitely not an action combat fan for sure because I'm awful at it and I think if I was able to be any good at it, it would be loads of fun. 

    That is however not saying much because it is my own limitation that governs my preference. What I mean is that action combat can be plumb exciting if you're terrific at it.

    Even in a point click game like Path of Exile the thing that defeated me in the end at around level 86 was the inability of avoiding certain AOEs that killed me. My pets were doing all the damage and so all I had to do was survive and I sucked at that too.
    Post edited by cheyane on
    KyleranAlBQuirky
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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,960
    cheyane said:
    I am playing PSO2 now

    And what wwtb?

    (what would that be?)
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  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 8,673
    Oh sorry Phantasy Star Online 2
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  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    edited June 2020
    I don' t play mmorpgs to engage in waca waca pew pew twitch combat. I play mmorpgs to experience a more immersive, thoughtful type of combat, reminiscent of PnP games like D&D. Such as EQ1.
    Slapshot1188AlBQuirkycheyane

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  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 753
    I don't have any particular preference. As long as they're done well, I can enjoy TAB target just as much as Action combat.

    Excellent TAB target combat systems:
    WoW Classic
    Warhammer Online
    Rift
    Guild Wars 2
    Archeage

    Excellent Action combat systems:
    TERA
    Guild Wars 2
    Blade & Soul
    Black Desert
    Dragon Nest

    All of these have well designed combat and skill systems and I would happily play any game that copied them.
    AlBQuirky
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,314
    edited June 2020
    What I care about is depth. I want to be tested on my knowledge of the game and my choice of skills, not how quickly I can react to a half-second animation that stuns you for 5 seconds.
    Post edited by Aeander on
    AlBQuirkyAmathe
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