Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Do you like when the game has lots of attributes/character stats or less?

124»

Comments

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    The absolute worst type of stat system is D&D, its flat out garbage. It limits your character from the start, there are no significant changes over time and therefore doesn't add anything meaningful. The better type of stat systems are the ones that you gradually improve over time, your character is an empty canvas that you gradually paint.

    The most important thing about a stat system isn't how many stats you have, its that each stat has to feel equally important and you have to sacrifice something to gain something. Dump stats adds nothing.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,234
    Shaigh said:
    The absolute worst type of stat system is D&D, its flat out garbage. It limits your character from the start, there are no significant changes over time and therefore doesn't add anything meaningful. The better type of stat systems are the ones that you gradually improve over time, your character is an empty canvas that you gradually paint.

    The most important thing about a stat system isn't how many stats you have, its that each stat has to feel equally important and you have to sacrifice something to gain something. Dump stats adds nothing.

    You say "limit", I say "define." I like what you call garbage, D&D's stat system.

    I do agree that the number means nothing if there is no use for them.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430
    If your complaint about a system is that you dont like it to be so complex then we cannot agree about what a good rulesystem is. I like my rulesystems to offer, among other things, variance and depth and complexity. If it doesnt, it bores me and I wont play the game.

    I'm pretty amused that somebody would claim D&D is a bad system. Compared to what, and in what regards, exactly ? I'm not claiming D&D is the ultimate rulesystem, not even close. But it has a lot of great ideas and concepts and it work so much better than many other systems.

    Worst rulesystem ever is TES. I havent played Skyrim, only Morrowind and Oblivion, but I hate their rulesystem with a passion. There are fundamental shortcomings at the very core of that system. It doesnt offer actual variance, and it doesnt even try to archieve any kind of balance. To play this system optimally, you have to do braindead things like running against the wall for hours. That Skyrim has reduced the number of stats to three just fits the story.

    Overall the best rulesystem is found in MMOs. When game developers get years to finetune rulesystems, some true gems of depth and variance and balance can result. That was specifically what I experienced with Vanguard, even if even that system still had its problems. It was amazing how many people felt that their favorite class had their best implementation ever in Vanguard, how different the gaming experience was on different classes, and how I could still find new ways to play my main character after years of playing this class.



    But back to stats in general, independent of any game or rulesystem.

    Just like any other choice about the character, I want every stat to be a meaningful decision about the character. If all one has to do for a Mage is max Int, then max Con, ignore the rest, and otherwise the character will just suck, then frankly thats no actual choice at all, thats just asking the player if he knows how to best skill their class. If thats all your system does, then you should rather leave stats out of your game alltogether.

    An example for something meaningful would be a system in which your have the mental stats Willpower, Wisdom, Intelligence and Insight.

    Then a mage with high willpower could have higher damage with damage spells, both hard to resist menta control spells as well as high defense against such spells, and a fast base spellcasting time as well as a low base cost for spells.

    A mage with high wisdom has high total mana, has higher chances to still cast a spell despite receiving damage during the casting, has higher magic resistance against all spells in general, and can memorize more spells total than other mages.

    A mage with high intelligence can learn more complex spells (everyone can learn them - but this mage can learn more of them), can casts complex spells faster than others and pays less mana cost for complex spells.

    A mage with high insight can cast stronger healing and stronger lifetap spells, their emotional control spells such as fear are harder to resist, they have better defenses against such spells themselves, and they have better mana regeneration.

    On top of that you might offer special bonuses for those who max any of these stats, and/or special maluses for those who min any of these stats.

    In this system, any of the four stats offer a substantial advantage to the mage, or a disadvantage if he keeps this stat lower than average. You still might find the perfect skilling for you personally, depending upon what spells you personally prefer to cast. But if done well enoug, every possible skilling might be quite meaningful.

    I cannot state enough how I dislike random rolls. Give us pointbuy for stats. End of discussion. Really. Balance IS an important aspect of all rulesystems. Even if its never archievable, you need to at least try to conceptionally make it possible.

    AlBQuirkycameltosis
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430

    The problem with MMORPGs is [...] They are way too gear dependent and vertical progression is out of control.  A max level player character is like a god compared to a noob. 

    Um, why, yes ? What else ?!?!?!

    If you have no progression in MMORPGs, you have a problem. They are supposed to offer *longterm* motivation to play, after all.

    AlBQuirky
    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,127
    As much as I enjoyed Anarchy Online, I think it's safe to say I enjoy a little variety in my character's progression. The more races, classes, stats and skills to improve, the more interested I am in my character.
    AlBQuirky

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,234
    Rhoklaw said:
    As much as I enjoyed Anarchy Online, I think it's safe to say I enjoy a little variety in my character's progression. The more races, classes, stats and skills to improve, the more interested I am in my character.

    And make that meaningful, as in differences, not just different skins :)
    Rhoklaw

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    I should add that I enjoy having lots of stats, if they are introduced incrementally over time - not as a hot mess of new info at the beginning when I haven't yet learned the game.
    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,058
    edited June 8
    I'm pretty amused that somebody would claim D&D is a bad system. Compared to what, and in what regards, exactly ? I'm not claiming D&D is the ultimate rulesystem, not even close. But it has a lot of great ideas and concepts and it work so much better than many other systems.
    The stat system is bad.

    I suggest you play cRPG based on D&D, the gold box games and BG1+2. The moment you make a character the role determines what stats are important and the stats you might as well dump. If you use dice rolling for stats in PnP which was the official rules back in the days you can be properly screwed before even setting foot inside the game.

    Over the years they have done plenty of work to cover up for the weaknesses of the stat system but melee classes rely far too much on physical stats which means they end up dumping mental stats. Stat wise your character is locked from level 1 and the bonus stat you get ends up used to boost your most important stat.

    Pillars of Eternity 1+2 tried to make their own take on D&D system but ran into similar problems. You make your character before even setting foot inside the game so you don't even know the importance of each stat or what abilities you will have. You also spend a lot of time making your character that takes you away from playing the actual game. 

    I much prefer systems like the one in Nioh 1+2, it ties stats to different kinds of weapons, armors and physical attributes. It still leads to specialization and dump stats but now you decide whether you will be a caster, ninja, brute or just a mix of all those things. Best of all you make the decisions over time.


    Post edited by Shaigh on
    AlBQuirky
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,399
    Amathe said:
    I should add that I enjoy having lots of stats, if they are introduced incrementally over time - not as a hot mess of new info at the beginning when I haven't yet learned the game.
    Do any RPGs introduce them gradually? The standard is to give it all to you at character creation before you have much of a clue of the real impact, or lack thereof, they actually have in the game.

    I mean... my standard way of playing games like Divinity OS 1 and 2, Pillars of Eternity or any other game with a large and complex stat system is to go with what I think would work and would be fun, play with that for a few levels until I figure out how things actually work, and then restart with more appropriate choices. Sometimes I do that 3 or 4 times before settling on a build that suits me. That's just a way of coping with stat bloat, not good game design.

    I'd much rather deal with direct improvements to actual skills as I level than try to make sense of some traditional D&D spreadsheet, often with skill gotchas that seem like they're a good thing to pick but turn out to be totally underwhelming or barely used in the game play.
    AlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 332
    edited June 12
    I think a good rpg is a decent mix of stats(ie. strength, dexterity etc), secondary stats(ie. armor, fire resistance etc), skills(non-combat related ie. professions), abilities(ie. spells, charge, move silently etc), gear(to tweak your stats and special items ie. healing potions etc) and status effects(ie. spell effects, burning, bleeding, blinded etc)


    AlBQuirky
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
Sign In or Register to comment.