Joppa puzzles

delete5230 · June 2020

Bottom line,
I'm not sure many would understand "Joppas" interpretation of puzzles !... Do people even want puzzles to do a quest ?

It's one thing to click on an NPC and process the lore and solve it, but now you have to solve multiple task and hope you understand.

Sure their are a lot of EQ1 fans. But their are also a lot of players that are not in-tune with it's ways.

Think about the example given for the perception system:

-Talk to the first NPC.
-Understand to scan the environment for another NPC way on top of rocks.
-Is it the right NPC, or search for another ?
-Talk to that NPC..... know what log to go to.
-Stand on top of the log "not in the log".
-Only walk half way, but not all the way and get your message.
-Do you even know their is a message ? Do not miss it or quest broken !
-Know to retalk to NPC.
-Go back to the log.

It's an age old argument here, question marks vs. no question marks... NOW it's multi layered.

Many people may not want a "Joppa puzzle".
This as a feature ?.... Give me Vanguard

Kyleran · June 2020

Back in the early 90s puzzles in games were a frustration for me, but since the Internet problem solved.

Secret World had challenging investigation quests full of puzzles which I often just looked up what to do to get past them.

I loathe puzzles in games...just an old murder hobo at heart.

ChildoftheShadows · June 2020

I like riddles and puzzles as long as they are not the means to leveling. Optional. Done at your own pace.

Wellspring · June 2020

You can keep your question marks, I like puzzles.

delete5230 · June 2020

ChildoftheShadows said:

I like riddles and puzzles as long as they are not the means to leveling. Optional. Done at your own pace.

I would like to know how optional it is,
Since I have a better understanding of the perception system and it's uses for quest, the question of how "optional" is more important.

I hope we don't have to dig to deep in the mind of Joppa to understand them. I could just imagine how many questions will be on their official forums.

Option 1- More computer Ram to decipher from the web/forums.
Option 2- Bring a group of six to figure them out.

Didn't know will be playing "Secret World" until now.

ChildoftheShadows · June 2020

delete5230 said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

I like riddles and puzzles as long as they are not the means to leveling. Optional. Done at your own pace.

I would like to know how optional it is,
Since I have a better understanding of the perception system and it's uses for quest, the question of how "optional" is more important.

I hope we don't have to dig to deep in the mind of Joppa to understand them. I could just imagine how many questions will be on their official forums.

Option 1- More computer Ram to decipher from the web/forums.
Option 2- Bring a group of six to figure them out.

Didn't know will be playing "Secret World" until now.

Considering Pantheon is more old school I imagine none of the perception/quest stuff is required to level your character. You might need to do some in order to obtain certain items, but for me that's fine.

achesoma · June 2020

Well, the perception system is heavily tied to the Keeper profession. Per Joppa, it’s optional just as any other gathering or crafting professions. It won’t be tied to any “must have” gear or content. My impression is that it’s more for completionist types who are really into the lore of the game. The problem is that it does not seem conducive to a group play environment.

I’m playing The Secret World Legends currently. It’s an amazing solo gameplay experience. Many of the quests/missions include puzzles of some type. It’s just a terrible system for group play.

delete5230 · June 2020

achesoma said:

Well, the perception system is heavily tied to the Keeper profession. Per Joppa, it’s optional just as any other gathering or crafting professions. It won’t be tied to any “must have” gear or content. My impression is that it’s more for completionist types who are really into the lore of the game. The problem is that it does not seem conducive to a group play environment.

I’m playing The Secret World Legends currently. It’s an amazing solo gameplay experience. Many of the quests/missions include puzzles of some type. It’s just a terrible system for group play.

Please explain the Keeper profession ?

I tried researching it yesterday and all pointed to pledge contributions, I know it's more than that.

Wizardry · June 2020

Wow=EASY spoiled
FFXI=zero hand holding,you need to actually traverse the world and pay attention to all the surroundings/npc's.

Difficult puzzles,i highly doubt it ,as long as they MAKE SENSE ,that is all i ask.

One mistake often done in rpg's is devs don't think as you in a world,they keep making mistakes that look like computer code in the game world.An NPC should not be the TRIGGER for the quest,sure it is as far as the code is concerned but it shouldn't LOOK like it in the game.

IDK if that made sense but it should.How can i use an example.....

Ok so the NPC says "i want you to go fetch me 10 bear pelts".Those bear pelts are ALWAYS there,they are a part of the Bear's anatomy.When mistakes are made in design is when the pelt only appears because the NPC started the triggered quest.So using the same SIMPLE example,the Bear wouldn't have a pelt unless the NPC triggers the quest,which would be silly/dumb and NOT what i want to see fro mquest design.

Wizardry · June 2020

You might even think my simple example was stupid but guess what,that is EXACTLY what happens a LOT in quest designs or any type of trigger off of a npc.
I can even use another VERY notable mistake and guess what game is the culprit..yep Wow again.

Ever do a quest and magically somehow as soon as you get that 10th bear pelt,your XP arrives out of thin air...sad.When i see crappy game/quest design like that i want to slap the developer up the side of the head for stupidity.

If you are doing a quest,you SHOULD have to go back to that NPC and have the NPC recognize that you finished the quest to get your reward,it shouldn't just pop out of thin air.

Sovrath · June 2020

delete5230 said:

Bottom line,
I'm not sure many would understand "Joppas" interpretation of puzzles !... Do people even want puzzles to do a quest ?

Yes I do. The secret to having a puzzle in a multiplayer game is to have something that resets every time. It's not just "one thing" but it's a "type" of puzzle that must be solved.

I'm ok with it. Others don't.

Point of note, in my Skyrim mod I have two Sudoku puzzles that must be solved in order to proceed through their appropriate gates.

However, knowing that some people wouldn't be able to get through them I put the answers in a book in a hard to get to area.

So the player can either solve the puzzle or make their way to where the answers are.

Kyleran · June 2020

Sovrath said:

delete5230 said:

Bottom line,
I'm not sure many would understand "Joppas" interpretation of puzzles !... Do people even want puzzles to do a quest ?

Yes I do. The secret to having a puzzle in a multiplayer game is to have something that resets every time. It's not just "one thing" but it's a "type" of puzzle that must be solved.

I'm ok with it. Others don't.

Point of note, in my Skyrim mod I have two Sudoku puzzles that must be solved in order to proceed through their appropriate gates.

However, knowing that some people wouldn't be able to get through them I put the answers in a book in a hard to get to area.

So the player can either solve the puzzle or make their way to where the answers are.

Would I easily be able to learn of this books existence and location?

If so, sign me up, I'll be more than happy to kill everything in my path to obtain it...

But no jumping puzzles please...

svann · June 2020

Puzzles that are real puzzles are good.

Puzzles that are "why isnt the game recognizing I have the right of it" are not.

"put the bag IN bottle"

Leisure Suit Larry

Sovrath · June 2020

Kyleran said:

Would I easily be able to learn of this books existence and location?

If so, sign me up, I'll be more than happy to kill everything in my path to obtain it...

But no jumping puzzles please...

There are two ways to find the book. One is to be "the explorer" and to come across and traverse a somewhat dangerous area.

The other is to stumble across "an npc" who will hint at its whereabouts so once you get to "the area" you will go "oh! It's probably somewhere here ... "

I originally was not going to include this way of getting through I but then realized that should I release this mod there are going to be people who get frustrated. So, I thought I'd give an optional way.

I should add, there is an area where you have to use the voice power that allows you to zip across areas (closest thing to a jumping puzzle.) "If" the player has decided they are not Dragonborn and they don't use voice powers then they have to hoof it the long way.

'Cause if you don't want to be special then you will get to areas the way the rest of us muggles get there. Walkin'.

Amathe · June 2020

What do I have in my pocket?

Winner. Take that Joppa.

delete5230 · June 2020

I'm trying to research the "Keeper Profession" but can't find any useful information.

In my extremity limited knowledge it has to do with knowing things that others don't.

In this video they mention it briefly at 38.42.

Anyway this is my favorite video from VR.

Wellspring · June 2020

delete5230 said:

I'm trying to research the "Keeper Profession" but can't find any useful information.

In my extremity limited knowledge it has to do with knowing things that others don't.

In this video they mention it briefly at 38.42.

Anyway this is my favorite video from VR.

Whenever you hear them talk about the "perception system", that is a system that is exclusive to players who decide to work on their Keeper profession.

Think of it like an optional, alternative advancement path, like Crafting. As a player, you can level up your adventuring class (Cleric, Ranger, etc.), level up your crafting skills, or work on both. It's the same with the Keeper profession.

achesoma · June 2020

delete5230 said:

achesoma said:

Well, the perception system is heavily tied to the Keeper profession. Per Joppa, it’s optional just as any other gathering or crafting professions. It won’t be tied to any “must have” gear or content. My impression is that it’s more for completionist types who are really into the lore of the game. The problem is that it does not seem conducive to a group play environment.

I’m playing The Secret World Legends currently. It’s an amazing solo gameplay experience. Many of the quests/missions include puzzles of some type. It’s just a terrible system for group play.

Please explain the Keeper profession ?

I tried researching it yesterday and all pointed to pledge contributions, I know it's more than that.

16.1 How does the Perception System work?
Through the Perception System, players can become a Keeper and quest dialogue is recorded in your Tome of Keeping. Keepers can utilize two skills to progress through the Perception System: a passive skill called Insight, and an active skill called Investigate. Once you’ve completed a Perception Quest, you won’t be bothered by the dialogue in the future. Hints and keywords are given to help direct players, no specific instructions will be given.

16.1.1 Do you have to start quests in the Perception System at the beginning?
It is very important that most quests can be obtained at any point in time. While it can be challenging from a design perspective, we feel it is integral to the success of the system that players can do the content on their terms. In theory, a player could get to max level without participating much in the Perception System, and then become a Keeper at level 50. We have some ideas for this to happen seamlessly.

16.1.2 What is the importance of the Perception System?
Certain quests completed through the Perception System can unlock additional content. For example, if players had not talked to a specific quest NPC and gone through the questline, they might not have a key to access certain parts of a dungeon.

16.1.3 How does one become a Keeper through the Perception System?
Your introduction to the Perception System will be as a fledgling keeper. You’ll have an apprentice / master relationship with an NPC who is very wise, old, and well acquainted with the aspects of perception. The NPC will be in an area like a starting city, and they will mentor you through the beginning of the system: teaching you how to notice things, acquire your initial skills for perception, and having you put them to use in small tasks and little quests nearby. There will be other mentors throughout the game world which you will need to find in order to progress through the perception system.

16.1.4 Will there be specialization within the Perception System?
Perception is built around ‘Investigation’ and ‘Insight’. Specializing into either one of these paths is something we are considering, but nothing is set in stone.

16.2 How will I know if an NPC has a quest? Will we have to actually converse with NPCs, or will we be prompted by punctuation marks over their heads?
If you want to find out if an NPC has a quest all you have to do is… talk to him. We will NOT be utilizing the ‘over the head icon’ approach, and there will be no punctuation or other symbols above NPCs’ heads. You will either have to begin a conversation with an NPC, or an NPC may begin one with you. Likewise, the environment itself will give clues and help you start a quest.

We want you to investigate your surroundings -- gathering information and interacting with NPCs is a big part of that. So don’t be shy, speak with the inhabitants of Terminus and engage the world!

FAQ source: https://pantheonriseofthefallen.gamepedia.com/FAQ

Another source: https://pantheonriseofthefallen.gamepedia.com/The_Perception_System

Characters who are engaging in the Perception System are known as Keepers.

One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress

The Dev Team took inspiration from classic tabletop RPGs, such as Dungeons & Dragons, while designing the Perception System. They wanted it to feel like you were playing with a DM (Dungeon Master), who would provide you with details and lore as you played the game and explored the environment.

Kyleran · June 2020

So many words, so little actual gameplay... Just the way of things these days.

MadFrenchie · June 2020

Puzzles are one of those features that can add a lot of cool moments when constructed and paced very well (i.e. Tomb Raider). If the game is a dedicated puzzle game, the pacing becomes less important but the construction becomes even more important.

In the context of an MMORPG, I don't think they add much.

TwoTubes · June 2020

Just fyi, brad talked about how the FAQ was in dire need of an update months before he passed...and it still hasnt been updated. Take the FAQ info with a grain of salt.

Iselin · June 2020

A somewhat relevant take on why adventure games deserved to die (sorry adventure fans, both of you

)

https://www.whatgamesare.com/2011/09/adventure-games-deserved-to-die-narrativism.html

The Perception system is simply adding some of that old time adventure game mouse-over-everything game play into an MMO.

I'm sure some will like it just how some liked the GW2 parkour puzzles or playing Gwent in The Witcher, all of which just seem like monumental wastes of development time to me /shrug.

delete5230 · June 2020

achesoma said:

delete5230 said:

achesoma said:

Well, the perception system is heavily tied to the Keeper profession. Per Joppa, it’s optional just as any other gathering or crafting professions. It won’t be tied to any “must have” gear or content. My impression is that it’s more for completionist types who are really into the lore of the game. The problem is that it does not seem conducive to a group play environment.

I’m playing The Secret World Legends currently. It’s an amazing solo gameplay experience. Many of the quests/missions include puzzles of some type. It’s just a terrible system for group play.

Please explain the Keeper profession ?

I tried researching it yesterday and all pointed to pledge contributions, I know it's more than that.

16.1 How does the Perception System work?
Through the Perception System, players can become a Keeper and quest dialogue is recorded in your Tome of Keeping. Keepers can utilize two skills to progress through the Perception System: a passive skill called Insight, and an active skill called Investigate. Once you’ve completed a Perception Quest, you won’t be bothered by the dialogue in the future. Hints and keywords are given to help direct players, no specific instructions will be given.

16.1.1 Do you have to start quests in the Perception System at the beginning?
It is very important that most quests can be obtained at any point in time. While it can be challenging from a design perspective, we feel it is integral to the success of the system that players can do the content on their terms. In theory, a player could get to max level without participating much in the Perception System, and then become a Keeper at level 50. We have some ideas for this to happen seamlessly.

16.1.2 What is the importance of the Perception System?
Certain quests completed through the Perception System can unlock additional content. For example, if players had not talked to a specific quest NPC and gone through the questline, they might not have a key to access certain parts of a dungeon.

16.1.3 How does one become a Keeper through the Perception System?
Your introduction to the Perception System will be as a fledgling keeper. You’ll have an apprentice / master relationship with an NPC who is very wise, old, and well acquainted with the aspects of perception. The NPC will be in an area like a starting city, and they will mentor you through the beginning of the system: teaching you how to notice things, acquire your initial skills for perception, and having you put them to use in small tasks and little quests nearby. There will be other mentors throughout the game world which you will need to find in order to progress through the perception system.

16.1.4 Will there be specialization within the Perception System?
Perception is built around ‘Investigation’ and ‘Insight’. Specializing into either one of these paths is something we are considering, but nothing is set in stone.

16.2 How will I know if an NPC has a quest? Will we have to actually converse with NPCs, or will we be prompted by punctuation marks over their heads?
If you want to find out if an NPC has a quest all you have to do is… talk to him. We will NOT be utilizing the ‘over the head icon’ approach, and there will be no punctuation or other symbols above NPCs’ heads. You will either have to begin a conversation with an NPC, or an NPC may begin one with you. Likewise, the environment itself will give clues and help you start a quest.
We want you to investigate your surroundings -- gathering information and interacting with NPCs is a big part of that. So don’t be shy, speak with the inhabitants of Terminus and engage the world!
FAQ source: https://pantheonriseofthefallen.gamepedia.com/FAQ

Another source: https://pantheonriseofthefallen.gamepedia.com/The_Perception_System

Characters who are engaging in the Perception System are known as Keepers.
One of the most profound things about Pantheon is how we are designing the game from the ground up so that the Environment truly matters – we want players to care about the world they are in, and why things are the way they are. When you think of MMOs, when is the last time you discovered the meaning, or the history, or the secrets of a person, place or event without being told by a text box? What if we’ve conceived of a way to bring players back to exploring because they are compelled by what they see in front of them - not because a blinking light tells them to go there? In Pantheon, Wizards will be able to perceive things that a Warrior cannot. Through prayer, a Cleric may gain insight into an area, or a creature, that a Rogue could never know. Through our perception system, Pantheon will redefine how the game world becomes known, and how players will work together to progress

The Dev Team took inspiration from classic tabletop RPGs, such as Dungeons & Dragons, while designing the Perception System. They wanted it to feel like you were playing with a DM (Dungeon Master), who would provide you with details and lore as you played the game and explored the environment.

Great information on the Perception and Keeper profession. Thanks so much for the research.

Both would be great if they can pull this off. It would take a good "sound and reasonable" development group to make it understandable for those people that ENJOY DEEP LORE.

I think,

Both the author and recipient player will have to be in-tune with each other to follow along with this deep system. It's basically a mind puzzle where both would have to be like-minded to understand. That's if I understand it correctly.

Sorry for calling the topic a Joppa puzzle. It's just I take Joppa as a little strange and hope he doesn't go off the deep end as many geniuses do, where most will not understand his thinking. Brad was a master of lore as it showed in EQ1, EQ2, and Vanguard. Lets just hope the rest of the team can pull it off.

As much as it may work, the Keeper profession may not be for me. As much as I try, lore in not my style. I'm not patient enough to follow lore deeply in any mmorpg…… GREAT for everyone that does.

Even in Vanilla WoW without using quest helpers and mods. I found it hard to follow the three paragraph Quest without finding it boring. Then would miss the target area I was going, only to re-read the quest again more closely .

This may be the popular opinion because Quest Helpers were built for the majority..... I never used them but struggled.

Wellspring · June 2020

Iselin said:

A somewhat relevant take on why adventure games deserved to die (sorry adventure fans, both of you )

https://www.whatgamesare.com/2011/09/adventure-games-deserved-to-die-narrativism.html

The Perception system is simply adding some of that old time adventure game mouse-over-everything game play into an MMO.

I'm sure some will like it just how some liked the GW2 parkour puzzles or playing Gwent in The Witcher, all of which just seem like monumental wastes of development time to me /shrug.

The jumping puzzles in GW2 was the only thing I liked about that game. The difficult challenge to get to the end, while at the same time controlling traps to stop opposing players from doing the same. Having to rely on team work to make progress. I felt very accomplished when I finally completed one and opened the reward chest.

To each their own, I guess.

Amathe · June 2020

I had a love/hate relationship with the jumping puzzles in SWTOR.

But my feelings about the GW2 ones are unambiguous. They scarred me.

Sovrath · June 2020

MadFrenchie said:

Puzzles are one of those features that can add a lot of cool moments when constructed and paced very well (i.e. Tomb Raider). If the game is a dedicated puzzle game, the pacing becomes less important but the construction becomes even more important.

In the context of an MMORPG, I don't think they add much.

I think it goes back to that test of "what type of player am I" Then you have the killer, the explorer, achiever, socializer

I've realized over the years that I get greater pleasure experiencing new things, seeing new things and having new tasks. I can't tell you how many times, in an mmorpg, that I saw something "interesting over yonder" only to climb the mountain, go down in the valley and discover nothing.

I remember one time in Lord of the Rings Online there was some structure on the top of a very high hill. I headed to it, got to the top and it was just a "nice view." So disappointed. Where the same scenario, in Vanguard, I was greeted wtih this slime that when you clicked on it you were rewarded with some sort of "weird cheese."

Or the time in Vanguard where I went down into a tower area and for some reason the wall seemed slightly different. I clicked on it and a door opened. What an incredible experience.

Of course there is a quest associated with that door but to stumble upon it without being led to it was an amazing moment.

So with puzzles it could be the same thing, depending on how they are implemented.

The problem with puzzles is that they can't be numerous otherwise it's now a puzzle game (which is fine but that's about something else) and they have to be of the type that can reset so that the answer can't be found on the web.

Howdy, Stranger!

Joppa puzzles

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

The Dev Team took inspiration from classic tabletop RPGs, such as Dungeons & Dragons, while designing the Perception System. They wanted it to feel like you were playing with a DM (Dungeon Master), who would provide you with details and lore as you played the game and explored the environment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

The Dev Team took inspiration from classic tabletop RPGs, such as Dungeons & Dragons, while designing the Perception System. They wanted it to feel like you were playing with a DM (Dungeon Master), who would provide you with details and lore as you played the game and explored the environment.

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Joppa puzzles

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

The Dev Team took inspiration from classic tabletop RPGs, such as Dungeons & Dragons, while designing the Perception System. They wanted it to feel like you were playing with a DM (Dungeon Master), who would provide you with details and lore as you played the game and explored the environment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

The Dev Team took inspiration from classic tabletop RPGs, such as Dungeons & Dragons, while designing the Perception System. They wanted it to feel like you were playing with a DM (Dungeon Master), who would provide you with details and lore as you played the game and explored the environment.