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Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia

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  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    delete5230 said:
    WoW @ChildoftheShadows Your all twisted up.


    <quote>
    "You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia!"

    Why should they show much ?.... You can play it !.... Actually play it !


    Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, and try and get yourself un-twisted :)

    They both seem to offer the same things, bud. Why should Pantheon show you much?

    Except, SoL is further along in its testing, has assigned a date for beta and release. 

    Pantheon did this in the past, missed several dates and now refuses to comment at all on their timeline. 

    Lets keep in mind they are still in pre-alpha and the last info we saw in 2019 said they were only 20% done with the game.

    So unless you find a square and a circle to be similar, they are not the same. 
    SoL is nearly 3 years beyond its initial release date..:
    Could you elaborate? I mean, I am not objecting... but consider this...

    SoL has stated previously that it takes 8 years roughly to build an MMO. (this you can read in the links I provided).

    So, please, with all complete and absolute respect... explain to us your comment?

    Thank you. 
    In 2015 on these forums Renfail said SoL would release in 2017. 

    Please do the research yourself. Me and my girl have 3 bad bitches over. I don’t have the time to link you.
    Did he say they were solid on that or that they hoped to? Everything I have read from them is honest in that they set targets, but are clear they are not set in stone. His most recent estimate is next year 4th quarter. 

    Since you are the one who is claiming evidence of something, I think it would be better that you provide support for your statement. 

    Asking me to sift through all the site and comments by him to find something you claim exists is rather silly. 

    So, when you get time, link it so I can see the context of his discussion. Thanks.
    bcbully
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    delete5230 said:
    WoW @ChildoftheShadows Your all twisted up.


    <quote>
    "You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia!"

    Why should they show much ?.... You can play it !.... Actually play it !


    Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, and try and get yourself un-twisted :)

    They both seem to offer the same things, bud. Why should Pantheon show you much?

    Except, SoL is further along in its testing, has assigned a date for beta and release. 

    Pantheon did this in the past, missed several dates and now refuses to comment at all on their timeline. 

    Lets keep in mind they are still in pre-alpha and the last info we saw in 2019 said they were only 20% done with the game.

    So unless you find a square and a circle to be similar, they are not the same. 
    SoL is nearly 3 years beyond its initial release date..:
    Could you elaborate? I mean, I am not objecting... but consider this...

    SoL has stated previously that it takes 8 years roughly to build an MMO. (this you can read in the links I provided).

    So, please, with all complete and absolute respect... explain to us your comment?

    Thank you. 
    In 2015 on these forums Renfail said SoL would release in 2017. 

    Please do the research yourself. Me and my girl have 3 bad bitches over. I don’t have the time to link you.
    Correct, and when asked about the missed dates Renfail will totally evade, call you a hater, or mock your weakness.

    What I've never seen him do is own up to it.
    Let me guess, just like Tim was a big meanie and hateful? 

    Again, would like to see the context as I have already seen how some of you exaggerate context. 
    Kyleranbcbullyborghive49
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,960
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    tzervoWellspringbcbullyborghive49dcutbi001
    ....
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    YashaX said:
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    Where is the source link?
    YashaXIselinbcbullyborghive49dcutbi001
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,960
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    Where is the source link?
    Google is your friend:

    (hint)  "releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017"
    tzervoborghive49
    ....
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    YashaX said:
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    Where is the source link?
    Google is your friend:

    (hint)  "releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017"
    That is not how it works. I am not going to do the work for you. You made the claim, you cut and pasted, surely you can provide the link? 

     
    YashaXKyleranTimukasIselinbcbullyborghive49
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,424
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    Kyleran said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    delete5230 said:
    WoW @ChildoftheShadows Your all twisted up.


    <quote>
    "You know who also hasn't shown much? Saga of Lucemia!"

    Why should they show much ?.... You can play it !.... Actually play it !


    Now put that in your pipe and smoke it, and try and get yourself un-twisted :)

    They both seem to offer the same things, bud. Why should Pantheon show you much?

    Except, SoL is further along in its testing, has assigned a date for beta and release. 

    Pantheon did this in the past, missed several dates and now refuses to comment at all on their timeline. 

    Lets keep in mind they are still in pre-alpha and the last info we saw in 2019 said they were only 20% done with the game.

    So unless you find a square and a circle to be similar, they are not the same. 
    SoL is nearly 3 years beyond its initial release date..:
    Could you elaborate? I mean, I am not objecting... but consider this...

    SoL has stated previously that it takes 8 years roughly to build an MMO. (this you can read in the links I provided).

    So, please, with all complete and absolute respect... explain to us your comment?

    Thank you. 
    In 2015 on these forums Renfail said SoL would release in 2017. 

    Please do the research yourself. Me and my girl have 3 bad bitches over. I don’t have the time to link you.
    Correct, and when asked about the missed dates Renfail will totally evade, call you a hater, or mock your weakness.

    What I've never seen him do is own up to it.
    Let me guess, just like Tim was a big meanie and hateful? 

    Again, would like to see the context as I have already seen how some of you exaggerate context. 
    I was wrong earlier, you've already crossed over, the ivory tower awaits you young knight.



     :D 
    tzervobcbullydcutbi001

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,424
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    Where is the source link?
    Google is your friend:

    (hint)  "releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017"
    That is not how it works. I am not going to do the work for you. You made the claim, you cut and pasted, surely you can provide the link? 

     
    Here, just for those too lazy to do their own research, Tim's own words from this 2015 thread on these very forums.

    (Special thanks to @bcbully who dredged this gem up back in March)

    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/439876/pantheon-and-or-saga-of-lucima-will-change-everything/p2
    tzervobcbullydcutbi001

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,391
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    Where is the source link?
    Google is your friend:

    (hint)  "releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017"
    That is not how it works. I am not going to do the work for you. You made the claim, you cut and pasted, surely you can provide the link? 

     
    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/444693/saga-of-lucimia-is-offering-pre-orders-crowd-funding

    You have to scroll through the discussion to find his comment.

    Also, people don’t give links when it comes to these claims because it is common knowledge around here. It is a bit like someone challenging the fact that the skies are blue and then wants evidence, most will tell you to go look for it yourself. Not me though, I am that nice guy.

    /Cheer,
    Lahnmir
    tzervoKylerandcutbi001
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,795
    edited May 2020
    Funny thing is, a particular poster's mud flinging was aiming at making me look like I am 100% against SoL. I am not. I was specifically judging SoL lead's arrogance (and my concern of it driving his design choices instead of rational thinking) and how he addresses the gaming community in forums.

    I do appreciate the fact that the SoL team is working with complete transparency, sticking to their guns in terms of their original vision, and working on this game as a passion project on top of their regular jobs. This is truly admirable, and all things considered more valuable for a gamer and potential customer. But not enough to put them on a pedestal.

    Re Pantheon or SoL, show me a released game and I will vote with my wallet. Until then, any difference in progress between the two is not relevant to the average consumer.

    I would be happy to see them both released, regardless of whether I play them in the end or not.
    Post edited by tzervo on
    Kyleran
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 16,093
    tzervo said:

    I would be happy to see them both released, regardless of whether I play them in the end or not.
    So would I although I have no intention on playing either... for science :) 

    You see I have this theory that crowdfunded MMOs - any of them - are up against it when it comes to growing an audience beyond the supporters during the development phase.

    And I'm not just saying this because some of them give out powerful perks to backers that affect game play putting any new post-launch player at a disadvantage. As far as I know neither of these two games do that but what they share with all the other ones is ridiculous levels of exposure and dissection to the point that the whole gaming world has spent years thinking about their features and have pretty well made up their minds to jump on or not long before they are in a launch state.

    I might be wrong but my interest in them releasing is to see how that plays out.

    So far Shroud of the Avatar has behaved exactly how I think this will play out for Pnatheon, SOL or any other that manages to overcome the first hurdle and actually launch.

    Someone in this thread mentioned a potential problem with SOL scaling up to be able to handle large numbers of players. IMO, that should be the least of their concerns. They should be so lucky as needing to address that in their future.
    tzervoYashaXKyleran
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    edited May 2020

    Here's the big picture.  Here is dealing with the here and now.  Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia.

    Stormhaven studios HAS A GAME.  Anyone can play it !

    Visionary Realms refuses to acknowledge progress, let alone a game. 

    To distract this FACT by posting unrelated slander from a single post on a forum is "Fake News". It has nothing to do with the fact…… yet it works because people are running with the "Fake News" that side tracts the fact one has a game and the other one has yet to prove anything.

     

    Pantheon,

    Where are the cities and towns, where is the liner game play, where are the level 1's.  All we have are loaded up files that "chosen" players are logged into…. All random, nothing liner. 

    I have yet to have anyone challenge this as I mentioned this several times. This is also "fake news" when people ignore a challenge. 


    Stormhaven studios has it's development flaws, but HONEST.

    Visionary Realms is evasive to max level, borderline DISHONEST.

    borghive49dcutbi001
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,795
    edited May 2020

    Here's the big picture.  Here is dealing with the here and now.  Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia.

    Stormhaven studios HAS A GAME.  Anyone can play it !

    Visionary Realms refuses to acknowledge progress, let alone a game. 

    SoL has a playable demo that you can test/try out. If this is what you consider a game then your bar is painfully low.

    Here is a bigger picture: That playable demo is very useful and relevant to backers, irrelevant to anyone else. In this sense, SoL is treating its backers way better than Pantheon (and gets bonus points for that) since they are its stakeholders and they are updated on its progress.

    For everyone else, both games are like Schroedinger's cat. They might be alive or not, and they are on equal grounds. Until one of them has the cojones to claim release and get it out of the box, either could end up dead or alive.
    Kyleranborghive49dcutbi001
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    tzervo said:

    Here's the big picture.  Here is dealing with the here and now.  Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia.

    Stormhaven studios HAS A GAME.  Anyone can play it !

    Visionary Realms refuses to acknowledge progress, let alone a game. 

    SoL has a playable demo that you can test/try out. If this is what you consider a game then your bar is painfully low.

    Here is a bigger picture: That playable demo is very useful and relevant to backers, irrelevant to anyone else. In this sense, SoL is treating its backers way better than Pantheon (and gets bonus points for that) since they are its stakeholders and they are updated on its progress.

    For everyone else, both games are like Schroedinger's cat. They might be alive or not, and they are on equal grounds. Until one of them has the cojones to claim release and get it out of the box, either could end up dead or alive.
    A demo ?
    I played it well over 8 months ago, It was a fairly flushed out LARGE ZONE. Larger than I could cover in my three days of playing and doing several runs with other players and developers.  They took us on several tours, often in different directions.... Did I mention that was over 8 months ago.

    important:
    Bugs.... Not many !!....Infact here's the honest list I've encountered.

    - Bandits are waiting just outside the inn waiting for unsuspected players to exit killing most if not ready.... This caused a pileup of tombstones of dead players that prevented players from exiting the inn..... It was reported and fixed within the hour. 

    - Character creation made players decide on initial abilities that may haunt them throughout the game. To my knowledge at the time they were fixed and couldn't be changed. 

    - Game play and animation was flawless, HOWEVER keybindings had MUCH to be desired. I've seen other players that had hesitations in what they did, so it was not just me.

    - One complaint from another player after a long discussion was the healing ability didn't make sense and was very weak..... they wanted to be a healer. 

    - That's it !..... Everything fixable. 



    Did I mention this was 8 months ago ?

           
    borghive49
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,424
    edited May 2020
    tzervo said:

    Here's the big picture.  Here is dealing with the here and now.  Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia.

    Stormhaven studios HAS A GAME.  Anyone can play it !

    Visionary Realms refuses to acknowledge progress, let alone a game. 

    SoL has a playable demo that you can test/try out. If this is what you consider a game then your bar is painfully low.

    Here is a bigger picture: That playable demo is very useful and relevant to backers, irrelevant to anyone else. In this sense, SoL is treating its backers way better than Pantheon (and gets bonus points for that) since they are its stakeholders and they are updated on its progress.

    For everyone else, both games are like Schroedinger's cat. They might be alive or not, and they are on equal grounds. Until one of them has the cojones to claim release and get it out of the box, either could end up dead or alive.
    A demo ?
    I played it well over 8 months ago, It was a fairly flushed out LARGE ZONE. Larger than I could cover in my three days of playing and doing several runs with other players and developers.  They took us on several tours, often in different directions.... Did I mention that was over 8 months ago.

    important:
    Bugs.... Not many !!....Infact here's the honest list I've encountered.

    - Bandits are waiting just outside the inn waiting for unsuspected players to exit killing most if not ready.... This caused a pileup of tombstones of dead players that prevented players from exiting the inn..... It was reported and fixed within the hour. 

    - Character creation made players decide on initial abilities that may haunt them throughout the game. To my knowledge at the time they were fixed and couldn't be changed. 

    - Game play and animation was flawless, HOWEVER keybindings had MUCH to be desired. I've seen other players that had hesitations in what they did, so it was not just me.

    - One complaint from another player after a long discussion was the healing ability didn't make sense and was very weak..... they wanted to be a healer. 

    - That's it !..... Everything fixable. 



    Did I mention this was 8 months ago ?

           
    Err....this info below comes from the SoL pledge page. (Emphasis theirs)
    ”Everything is under NDA.
    That means zero streaming, zero sharing of screenshots, and zero sharing of any information.”
    tzervo

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    Kyleran said:
    tzervo said:

    Here's the big picture.  Here is dealing with the here and now.  Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia.

    Stormhaven studios HAS A GAME.  Anyone can play it !

    Visionary Realms refuses to acknowledge progress, let alone a game. 

    SoL has a playable demo that you can test/try out. If this is what you consider a game then your bar is painfully low.

    Here is a bigger picture: That playable demo is very useful and relevant to backers, irrelevant to anyone else. In this sense, SoL is treating its backers way better than Pantheon (and gets bonus points for that) since they are its stakeholders and they are updated on its progress.

    For everyone else, both games are like Schroedinger's cat. They might be alive or not, and they are on equal grounds. Until one of them has the cojones to claim release and get it out of the box, either could end up dead or alive.
    A demo ?
    I played it well over 8 months ago, It was a fairly flushed out LARGE ZONE. Larger than I could cover in my three days of playing and doing several runs with other players and developers.  They took us on several tours, often in different directions.... Did I mention that was over 8 months ago.

    important:
    Bugs.... Not many !!....Infact here's the honest list I've encountered.

    - Bandits are waiting just outside the inn waiting for unsuspected players to exit killing most if not ready.... This caused a pileup of tombstones of dead players that prevented players from exiting the inn..... It was reported and fixed within the hour. 

    - Character creation made players decide on initial abilities that may haunt them throughout the game. To my knowledge at the time they were fixed and couldn't be changed. 

    - Game play and animation was flawless, HOWEVER keybindings had MUCH to be desired. I've seen other players that had hesitations in what they did, so it was not just me.

    - One complaint from another player after a long discussion was the healing ability didn't make sense and was very weak..... they wanted to be a healer. 

    - That's it !..... Everything fixable. 



    Did I mention this was 8 months ago ?

           
    Err....this info below comes from the SoL pledge page. (Emphasis theirs)
    ”Everything is under NDA.
    That means zero streaming, zero sharing of screenshots, and zero sharing of any information.”
    Ok then stick up for Pantheon that gives us NOTHING !
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    Tanist said:
    Raidan_EQ said:
    @Tanist

    First RIP Brad, but if anything, he was leaning on more mainstream ideals closer to Vanguard than I’d say 1b developer was/is (Joppa).  Remember Brad’s everyone has pets proposal that was shot down or Joppa countering Brad’s posts?  Joppa loves EQ, and if you listen to him talk, he talks in EQ-esque terms.  There’s been no indication that the development has changed at all during the process, However, there’s always been discussion on meaningful progression in 2 hour play sessions, potential caravans, potential mentoring, potential discussion on what the death penalty will ultimately be, etc since the Kickstarter.  None of that has changed as nothing has been firmly set in stone, and it won’t be till testing.  Should they make a firm line in the sand - possibly, but it’s not like there stance has changed from saying this concrete death penalty system is now more mainstream.

    My bigger issue is will it ever make it to testing as development can’t last forever (funding and/or developer interest).  If it does, like Dullahan said, it will be by far the closest thing to EQ.
    I remember Brad being a lot more "mainstream" than I liked. As you mentioned previously, he was the one that came up with Caravans, and he also was the one who wanted city to city transports (ala Vanguard style of continent to continent) to which Joppa shot him down. I see a lot of heavy push for mainstream on the site, and the videos of content do not give me confidence.

    Combat is too fast, the "buffs" over head and on display defeat from the concept of self managing and getting to know skills individually. Caravans being a design allowance bothers me and shows to be an extreme exploit. Mounts are an obvious problem as it gives everyone a default run speed (I doubt they are going to make the mounts a rare drop quest as they did with J-boots).

    The talk of leashing mobs is disturbing and defeats the concept of responsible movement through the zone. Call of the Hero being a spell in play also shows ignorance on the abuses it had in EQ. The perception and quest system is just a click/pop up fest, with a skill requirement that serves no real point (as opposed to a text input system where players have to think and interact). 

    I can already see they are making the same mistakes as EQ by trying to "balance" class makeups rather than worrying about content usefulness (look at the classes, they are looking very cookie cutter/homogenized with numerous classes trying to cover multiple roles ala Vanguard) and there seems to be a lot of attention to that of PvP, even though it was claimed it was not focused on. 

    Then there is the issue with FTP which is a death rattle for the game. That is, if they allow it to all servers, it will have an adverse effect on the game regardless of what safeguards they put in which not to mention will cause a massive drain on resources as those FTP accounts will not have a positive income influx (ie with no store to balance out expense, it is a pure loss and hope for subs which will never outbalance the FTP users).

    Then there is the change to end game talk, which was never a discussion before (ie end game was always a side note, with some mention of possible raid content, but the idea that it was all "end game" was not spoke of in such a fashion, rather the "journey" was.).  

    Now though, devs openly talk about "end game" using that phrase and going on about how it is am important concept of play. Take that combined with the focus on raid zones this early in the game (why are they making raid content this early on and show casing it if the game is predominately about the journey that EQ release was?).

    There are so many inconsistencies, so many loose ends, so many questions that I don't trust them anymore. They are not upfront and honest on their intent, they have been wishy washy on things and the continued pandering to forum topic questions by Kilsin to ask about mainstream concepts is flipping insulting and telling at the same time. 

    They are selling out, keeping thier options open. I don't doubt Joppa loves old EQ and would love to have such, but I know this... they aren't selling that, they haven't for a long time. 

    Sounds like you're looking for a Classic EQ remake. I don't think that was ever the vision for Pantheon? Like RaidenEQ said, it was always going to be a new game, inspired by EQ1 AND Vanguard.

    They did have specific tenants for the Vision (like Community, etc.), but I don't think the things you mentioned are a shift from the original plan. If they started talking about adding instances, then I'd be worried.

    Regarding end game content, did you ever play Vanguard when it released? They failed to focus on end-game content before launch, and it really hurt the game. I can go into specifics if you want, but long story short, it was a big mess. This is Brad learning from past mistakes.
    tzervo
    --------------------------------------------
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Kyleran said:
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    Where is the source link?
    Google is your friend:

    (hint)  "releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017"
    That is not how it works. I am not going to do the work for you. You made the claim, you cut and pasted, surely you can provide the link? 

     
    Here, just for those too lazy to do their own research, Tim's own words from this 2015 thread on these very forums.

    (Special thanks to @bcbully who dredged this gem up back in March)

    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/439876/pantheon-and-or-saga-of-lucima-will-change-everything/p2
    Why is asking that someone provide the link to see the proper context (and not some text) becoming a fanboi? Seriously, die on that hill if you like, but it is a very silly point to stand on.

    Your idea of who is lazy is warped. It is customary for the one making the claim to provide the supporting information. The poster coming in, making a claim, then telling someone to Google it is lazy and backwards in such things. It is a fallacious form of discussion "Make claim, demand everyone prove them wrong". I used to fall for that approach, but I got tired of chasing to provide people support for their own arguments. If the poster can not be bothered to support their own argument, they can't be bothered to be taken seriously. 

    Now, as for the link.

    I see he did say that his release date was mentioned as 2017. I do find it odd they would give such a date being that early into development (though as I stated previously, I have not delved deep into their development). That was naive of him, and I understand why people are dismissive. 

    In terms of him being combative with the posters, that one I completely understand. That thread from the video is perfect evidence of imbeciles who threw tantrums on certain game design decisions all the while claiming they won't play the game. Those kids are exactly why mainstream MMOs are the way they are. 

    So what you call being a fan boi, is merely finding common agreement with Tim on the idiots in gaming today. What Tim seeks, I can connect with, have argued his points myself among my friends. 

    I stand by what I said about their development professionalism and while it doesn't excuse the comments about release being missed, I would have to say that they are still moving on, making progress and have been completely open about their development. 


    bcbully
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Sounds like you're looking for a Classic EQ remake. I don't think that was ever the vision for Pantheon? Like RaidenEQ said, it was always going to be a new game, inspired by EQ1 AND Vanguard.

    They did have specific tenants for the Vision (like Community, etc.), but I don't think the things you mentioned are a shift from the original plan. If they started talking about adding instances, then I'd be worried.

    Regarding end game content, did you ever play Vanguard when it released? They failed to focus on end-game content before launch, and it really hurt the game. I can go into specifics if you want, but long story short, it was a big mess. This is Brad learning from past mistakes.
    My point is not to say that is what I wanted (EQ clone). Rather it was to point out that EQ had a lot of subtle features to which made it the game it was. I think Pantheon is missing the point on some of those features and by doing so, will end up making another MMO that attempts to find what EQ discovered, but fails.


    If you look back to RaidenEQ, there are some things he conceded that they have made as bad decisions, and some he disagrees with me over then as was mentioned by someone else, some things are still up in the air. 


    There is a lot that is.. well... the tone of change I see. They are subtle discussion changes, comments here and there, changes in attention to various arguments that I have noticed over the years. It is hard to explain, but it is a "trend" began to notice over the years being in alpha and betas of other games. I watched the same "trend" or movement away from the core direction of the game with LotRO when it transitioned from Alpha, to Beta, and then Open beta. I could see the demeanor of the devs change, the word speak change, subtle things that began to serve mainstream. This I am noticing with Pantheon. 


    If you read the forums, it is heavily inundated by FFXI, EQOA, and WoW fans. The discussions over the years went from talking about how to achieve a spiritual EQ/VG goal, to that of features and designs from mainstream games. What was considered coveted designs, are called "outdated" now. 

    Now those decisions have not been set in stone, but in various comments it has concerned me. 


    There are the major ones I am leery on, death penalty (anything short of a naked corpse run will be something I won't bother with), travel, etc... 

    Then there are subtle elements such as combat information (over the head), class abilities, etc. that I have issue with, that seem to appeal to more mainstream design. Some were stated from the start. DPS as a role I think was a huge sell out to mainstream design, DPS IMO isn't a role, all classes do DPS and by balancing a class around it, there will be problems. 

    As for Vanguard I played very little at release, my friend played a bit more, but we both gave up due to the many problems it had on release. I tried it out later, as it became less buggy, but naturally a lot of mainstream features had been implemented over that time. 

    The problem I have with raids is that the game then centers around it. You can see this in EQ and I think this led to its demise and why I think WoW pulled a lot of the subs. Early release EQ was more about the journey, while raiding was a part of the game, the release focus was group dungeons as raids were a small percentage of initial release. 

    Over Kunark and Velious, raids increased, but there was still a large component of group content and play. Once GOD/OOW came out, the game was clear as to what its focus was, and if you didn't raid, you struggled heavily with the content as the group content began to be designed for geared raiders. This progression continued on up (not sure what it is at the later areas, but I noticed it was the same for several expansions after upon returning).

    Raiding created a ton of problems in EQ and I think it destroyed a lot of the charm the game had. It turned EQ into a gimmick (yes, I did raid, I led raids throughout release -->PoP). So, I think raiding focus, "end game" as a concept is a mistake (this is one of the things that changed over the years. End game was not talked about as the focus, it was the journey and the content was to be developed to fit that. ) Keep in mind, I don't think raiding is bad, I just think if it becomes a focus, then it is a raid game, not a group game and I think that misses what EQ originally was. 

    Time will tell, but I am not encouraged by what I see. I think mainstream has too much of an ear on Pantheon. Maybe when release comes, it will prove me wrong... but... here is one thing. F2P is mainstream and if your game is going to have 1-10 F2P, the people you are going to be attending to are not old school EQ players, but mainstream players and they will demand the game be fit to their ideal. I just don't see this working out in the benefit of the type of game play I desire. In that respect, SoL has provided a tone reasoning that fits more my taste. 






    YashaX
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    lahnmir said:
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    Tanist said:
    YashaX said:
    From the mouth of the big meanie himself in January 2016:

    Renfail said:
    A: It's Saga of Lucimia. Your title spelled it wrong. 

    B: It's not a PVP game. Your thread title...roger that, you edited it :) 

    C: Our pre-order store is old news. It's been open since September of 2015. 

    D : Volume I is the base game, launching with 30+ zones and dungeons, and around 18-24 months of content for the average player. Volumes 2, 3, and 4 are pre-planned expansions, releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017. 

    E: Yep, we're still firm to our guns. If you don't care for what we're doing, don't play our game. We find it incredibly amusing that people who are apparently so disinterested in what we're doing, or the fact that we're sharing our progress in all its glory (from the ugly, beginning stages with bugs all the way through to launch), continue to drive traffic to our site and help us build up our following. 

    Thanks for the traffic! Can't wait to show you guys what we've been working on over the holidays. Stay tuned for the next build later this Spring!
    Where is the source link?
    Google is your friend:

    (hint)  "releasing every couple of years after the first title launches in December of 2017"
    That is not how it works. I am not going to do the work for you. You made the claim, you cut and pasted, surely you can provide the link? 

     
    https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/444693/saga-of-lucimia-is-offering-pre-orders-crowd-funding

    You have to scroll through the discussion to find his comment.

    Also, people don’t give links when it comes to these claims because it is common knowledge around here. It is a bit like someone challenging the fact that the skies are blue and then wants evidence, most will tell you to go look for it yourself. Not me though, I am that nice guy.

    /Cheer,
    Lahnmir
    That isn't common knowledge, it is niche knowledge. The sky being blue is a universal understanding that is not specific to a certain topic of discussion and is something experienced by most people. For instance, I never followed SoL until recently and had breaks away from this forum, so missing various discussions is natural.


    YashaX
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    tzervo said:
    Funny thing is, a particular poster's mud flinging was aiming at making me look like I am 100% against SoL. I am not. I was specifically judging SoL lead's arrogance (and my concern of it driving his design choices instead of rational thinking) and how he addresses the gaming community in forums.

    I do appreciate the fact that the SoL team is working with complete transparency, sticking to their guns in terms of their original vision, and working on this game as a passion project on top of their regular jobs. This is truly admirable, and all things considered more valuable for a gamer and potential customer. But not enough to put them on a pedestal.

    Re Pantheon or SoL, show me a released game and I will vote with my wallet. Until then, any difference in progress between the two is not relevant to the average consumer.

    I would be happy to see them both released, regardless of whether I play them in the end or not.
    What about the arrogance of the poster? This is the "tone deaf" I am talking about. The poster walks in, arrogantly dismisses a design decision by the developer, calls it bad design, and says they won't play it. 

    See, what I dislike about mainstream is how arrogant they are about certain designs.

    Over the years, I have heard pretentious little twits go on about how not having a map is silly, that death penalties being harsh are a waste, that they play the game for their fun and so deserve to play it as they want and anyone who dares to create a game that does not serve that is... "bad design". 

    They say this while they have 100's of games out there that give them EXACTLY what they want, but they are apparently so dense they can't be bothered to play what they want, what they really want is to play a new game, designed like all the rest of the games. It is idiocy at its finest. 

    Look, you don't see me going to mainstream games, demanding they be the way I want them. Why? Because they made their decision, and though I disagree, It is their decision and it would be beyond arrogant for me to go to a mainstream game and demand it being traditional. The only reason I came here is because originally it was talked that Pantheon would be a spiritual successor to EQ and their tenants proclaimed to meet that concept of design. 

    SoL has stated very clearly from what I have read what their ideal is, what their design goal is, what their audience is. 

    How stupid does someone have to be to walk in and completely counter that and then get upset when the devs don't fall all over themselves trying to be nice by pointing out how stupid that demand is? 

    FFS they go in serious depth discussing the mechanics, why they have them the way they do, and all I saw from that post was "Waaah!!!! I want my mainstream feature!!! WAahahha!!!"

    It was silly and deserved to be taken to task. maybe then people will go somewhere else, as it is clear they don't want that game, they want a game made the way they want it counter to the developers vision.  

    Yeah, talk about arrogance? /facepalm


    delete5230KyleranYashaX
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited May 2020
    The sky is not blue....just saying.Kind of leads to something i already know,people don't think much.
    A few hints ..
    3 cones/retina RGB,gee we have seen those 3 letters before haven't we.
    color wave lengths
    The real color and there might be some science to prove otherwise is >>>>Violet.It is just how our eyes "perceive it".

    Someone said they don't think a classic EQ remake was ever the vision of this game?IDK about that imo it was the selling point,it was EXACTLY what the team had in mind.I am not even sure that all of their current ideas were there in the beginning.I believe their semi instancing ideas came about during design creation.

    Just like with Vanguard,they did expect to deliver a few new ideas,which is usually a good thing.

    I read over the original FAQ page full of information,i liked what i read,i liked what i heard from Brad,so all seemed decent enough.I do however feel they changed their original plot a tad bit and not for the better,maybe better for them but not us.That is of course depending on each individual and what YOU want from a mmorpg.

    I think it is TOO simple to simply say forced grouping or not,instancing or not,it is the implementation of design ideas that matter the most.An example linear questing with yellow markers over npc's,a terrible idea,however SOME studios go one further,they have you walk 5 feet from npc A to npc B....congratulations,you are now level 2 !!!!!

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Wizardry said:
    The sky is not blue....just saying.Kind of leads to something i already know,people don't think much.

    Seriously? You do realize the discussion was a metaphorical means irrelevant to the point of factual evidence.

    Understanding context of a discussion is key to making a valuable point. What you did was walk in and pat yourself on the back for giving a fact that is irrelevant. 

    Narcissist much?
    YashaX
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited May 2020

    Here's the big picture.  Here is dealing with the here and now.  Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia.

    Stormhaven studios HAS A GAME.  Anyone can play it !

    Visionary Realms refuses to acknowledge progress, let alone a game. 

    To distract this FACT by posting unrelated slander from a single post on a forum is "Fake News". It has nothing to do with the fact…… yet it works because people are running with the "Fake News" that side tracts the fact one has a game and the other one has yet to prove anything.

     

    Pantheon,

    Where are the cities and towns, where is the liner game play, where are the level 1's.  All we have are loaded up files that "chosen" players are logged into…. All random, nothing liner. 

    I have yet to have anyone challenge this as I mentioned this several times. This is also "fake news" when people ignore a challenge. 


    Stormhaven studios has it's development flaws, but HONEST.

    Visionary Realms is evasive to max level, borderline DISHONEST.


    Why is it people with the biggest "truth" hangups are always the most dishonest?

    Visionary Realms refused nothing of the sort. They provide progress reports on a monthly basis in text and video formats.

    You know good and well Pantheon has a working client that people have played. There are dozens of publicly available videos, some even showing the launching of the game and at least a portion of it in a playable state.

    If that isn't enough for you, you're within your right to think and say so. Lets just not pretend that because you don't like it, that it doesn't exist.
    tzervoAmatheSensaiSovrathYashaXdcutbi001


  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,017
    Kyleran said:
    tzervo said:

    Here's the big picture.  Here is dealing with the here and now.  Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia.

    Stormhaven studios HAS A GAME.  Anyone can play it !

    Visionary Realms refuses to acknowledge progress, let alone a game. 

    SoL has a playable demo that you can test/try out. If this is what you consider a game then your bar is painfully low.

    Here is a bigger picture: That playable demo is very useful and relevant to backers, irrelevant to anyone else. In this sense, SoL is treating its backers way better than Pantheon (and gets bonus points for that) since they are its stakeholders and they are updated on its progress.

    For everyone else, both games are like Schroedinger's cat. They might be alive or not, and they are on equal grounds. Until one of them has the cojones to claim release and get it out of the box, either could end up dead or alive.
    A demo ?
    I played it well over 8 months ago, It was a fairly flushed out LARGE ZONE. Larger than I could cover in my three days of playing and doing several runs with other players and developers.  They took us on several tours, often in different directions.... Did I mention that was over 8 months ago.

    important:
    Bugs.... Not many !!....Infact here's the honest list I've encountered.

    - Bandits are waiting just outside the inn waiting for unsuspected players to exit killing most if not ready.... This caused a pileup of tombstones of dead players that prevented players from exiting the inn..... It was reported and fixed within the hour. 

    - Character creation made players decide on initial abilities that may haunt them throughout the game. To my knowledge at the time they were fixed and couldn't be changed. 

    - Game play and animation was flawless, HOWEVER keybindings had MUCH to be desired. I've seen other players that had hesitations in what they did, so it was not just me.

    - One complaint from another player after a long discussion was the healing ability didn't make sense and was very weak..... they wanted to be a healer. 

    - That's it !..... Everything fixable. 



    Did I mention this was 8 months ago ?

           
    Err....this info below comes from the SoL pledge page. (Emphasis theirs)
    ”Everything is under NDA.
    That means zero streaming, zero sharing of screenshots, and zero sharing of any information.”
    Ok then stick up for Pantheon that gives us NOTHING !
    Nothing? Like all the streams of multiple people, multiple groups playing? All the while you’re gloating about ONE ZONE?!

    I knew you had issues, but I think it’s worse than that. 
    tzervoSovrathdcutbi001
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