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Interesting video from Mark Kern on why game developers don't listen to armchair developers.

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Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,666
    Amathe said:
    I love when in a beta test people weigh in with ideas that seem to assume nothing has been done so far. Like if the game is set in ancient Rome, and some guy says there really ought to be guns and automobiles - something GTA like. They seem to think the developers will just start over from scratch.
    Your statement is 100% accurate and i concur,that is exactly how it should be.

    The only issue i have is ,how often are THEY,the developers telling us THEY LISTEN.

    You know what they really listen to ,anything that is SUPER easy to implement,like maybe adding 5% more xp to the math formula.Nerfs that again involve simple numbers,like 1% more damage or 1% less damage.
    ONE guy can do all sorts of math changes by himself in one day,takes very little effort other than perhaps some coordination with a couple other leads on various systems/parts of the program they are not familiar with.

    Developers are not going to redesign a game.How often is there an uproar over gender lock?They CRINGE at even that much work because that new model needs thousands of animation sequences.Game devs do often just CHEAT the systems and use the same skeletal for 1/2 or all the models but in some cases they are legit putting in the work.

    So yeah i GET IT but at the same time,devs need to quit feeding us the BULL and websites kissing their ass need to quit posting such bull.
    AmatheAlBQuirkyTuor7delete5230

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    Wizardry said:
    Amathe said:
    I love when in a beta test people weigh in with ideas that seem to assume nothing has been done so far. Like if the game is set in ancient Rome, and some guy says there really ought to be guns and automobiles - something GTA like. They seem to think the developers will just start over from scratch.
    Your statement is 100% accurate and i concur,that is exactly how it should be.

    The only issue i have is ,how often are THEY,the developers telling us THEY LISTEN.

    You know what they really listen to ,anything that is SUPER easy to implement,like maybe adding 5% more xp to the math formula.Nerfs that again involve simple numbers,like 1% more damage or 1% less damage.
    ONE guy can do all sorts of math changes by himself in one day,takes very little effort other than perhaps some coordination with a couple other leads on various systems/parts of the program they are not familiar with.

    Developers are not going to redesign a game.How often is there an uproar over gender lock?They CRINGE at even that much work because that new model needs thousands of animation sequences.Game devs do often just CHEAT the systems and use the same skeletal for 1/2 or all the models but in some cases they are legit putting in the work.

    So yeah i GET IT but at the same time,devs need to quit feeding us the BULL and websites kissing their ass need to quit posting such bull.
    Animations from biped to biped require nothing. It just works.

    If the reason is time constraints it's usually cosmetic. Getting different variants of armor into different shapes takes a lot of work. But honestly I think these gender locked games do it for other reasons much like we have race locked classes. 
    Typically the reason a Dev doesn't "listen" is because the idea doesn't fit what they want for the game, whatever that may be. 
    AlBQuirky
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 2,649
    If you listen to a community you end up with a simplified game where every class can do everything and you level fast and hit big numbers.
    AlBQuirkyTheocritus

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158
    It's one thing to "listen." It's another to "implement." Don't get them confused :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    Sometimes there is good information from gamers.  While developers make the game many times the no lifers knows how shit works in practice better than the developer. They can show how things are an issue.  
    tzervo
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,577
    For every gamer a dev tries to please, he probably angers ten others.
    tzervoUngood
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,416
    Rhoklaw said:
    What the guy said makes perfect sense.  Even if they didn't have to think about the legal implications of reviewing every idea that people submit I'm sure most of what they get from people is completely useless anyway.  I can imagine people suggesting vague things like, "Hey, why don't you make a game with cowboys."  and thinking that that is enough to create a great game.

    The real problem is that people actually working in the industry seem to have completely lost the ability to make enjoyable games.  Also, they tend to concentrate more on designing games as tools to herd people into cash shops than anything else.
    EXACTLY!

    The gaming industry started off with passion. Now it's full of businessmen in suits and advertising slogans. In my opinion, this industry was never supposed to be about making money. It just turned out that way.

    Late 90's and early 2000's we saw MMORPGs. Now in 2020, we have games designed around cash shops. It's a complete mockery of the genre and folks wonder why crowdfunded games exist.
    There's not a creative/entertainment industry out there that hasn't morphed (some a long time ago) into organizations that make money. Video games are no different.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    ISovrath said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    What the guy said makes perfect sense.  Even if they didn't have to think about the legal implications of reviewing every idea that people submit I'm sure most of what they get from people is completely useless anyway.  I can imagine people suggesting vague things like, "Hey, why don't you make a game with cowboys."  and thinking that that is enough to create a great game.

    The real problem is that people actually working in the industry seem to have completely lost the ability to make enjoyable games.  Also, they tend to concentrate more on designing games as tools to herd people into cash shops than anything else.
    EXACTLY!

    The gaming industry started off with passion. Now it's full of businessmen in suits and advertising slogans. In my opinion, this industry was never supposed to be about making money. It just turned out that way.

    Late 90's and early 2000's we saw MMORPGs. Now in 2020, we have games designed around cash shops. It's a complete mockery of the genre and folks wonder why crowdfunded games exist.
    There's not a creative/entertainment industry out there that hasn't morphed (some a long time ago) into organizations that make money. Video games are no different.
    Just look a YouTube for a good example. It used to be all about the creators and more people are getting deplatformed for terrible reasons, high profile people/corporations are getting boosted to the front page, and more. It’s a bit off topic but just there to support your statement. 

    Yet another reason I think we as gamers need to not lose faith in indies and figure it a way to support them, or support the right projects properly. I’m not sure the answer, but it’s the only way we’re going to get the quality we want. 
    Tuor7
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,416



    What the industry is missing is a clear career path to being a games designer. Everyone I've met who did a degree in games design said it was absolutely worthless as it bears no relation to the real world. There is no junior games designer, leading to middle, senior then lead designer.

    But there really should be. And if there was, I'd be applying for a job immediately :P
    The thing is, because it's a "creative field" there isn't a direct path and probably never will be.

    I don't know of a creative field that you sign up, do your "first job" and move up the line to "painter" or "Actor" or "Director" or "Author" or "Artist." etc.


  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    Sovrath said:



    What the industry is missing is a clear career path to being a games designer. Everyone I've met who did a degree in games design said it was absolutely worthless as it bears no relation to the real world. There is no junior games designer, leading to middle, senior then lead designer.

    But there really should be. And if there was, I'd be applying for a job immediately :P
    The thing is, because it's a "creative field" there isn't a direct path and probably never will be.

    I don't know of a creative field that you sign up, do your "first job" and move up the line to "painter" or "Actor" or "Director" or "Author" or "Artist." etc.


    The clear path to becoming a game designer is to learn programming and make a game OR have money to pay programmers.  I know it’s not what your typical game designer wants to do, but that’s how it is. Unless a programmer is getting paid they’re not likely to just do what others want. 

    Replace programmer with artists where necessary as well. 
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,416
    edited May 28


    The clear path to becoming a game designer is to learn programming and make a game OR have money to pay programmers.  I know it’s not what your typical game designer wants to do, but that’s how it is. Unless a programmer is getting paid they’re not likely to just do what others want. 

    Replace programmer with artists where necessary as well. 
    Well, not as easy as "learn programming and make a game" unless of course you mean very small games like "Papers Please" or some such thing.

    Talking with the head of Nine Dots Studios who made Outward, he said that it was touch and go until Outward got success. At one point he thought he wouldn't be able to continue the company.

    It's not like signing up for your first job in the mailroom and working your way up to CEO. it's seems to be a lot of hit and miss, as well as a game making learning curve.

    There's this game reviewer I just discovered, I like his stuff (though I really don't think I'd like his podcasts given the bits he's revealed in his review) and he reviewed two indy games.

    The second in this review is an asset flip. However, he goes on to say the one guy who did it is actually good and knew what he was doing even though he used assets bought in a store. The first game is also very good (obviously both not without flaws) and the developers, I guess a small team, knew what they were doing.

    So perhaps that falls more in the line of "learn programming and make a game." The thing is just because a person is a programmer doesn't mean they know jack about "making a game." They might be able to put it together, but making a coherent fun game is something else.

    here is the review. People should check out some of his other stuff as well. 

    tzervoAlBQuirky
  • ZegalothZegaloth Member UncommonPosts: 223
    This is pretty laughable coming from a washed up game developer who hasn't done anything of note in the industry for over 14 years. Other than being voted out of Red 5 Studios as their CEO for gross mismanagement of that dumpster fire of a game.
    Back my arm chair.
    Vermillion_Raventhal
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,534
    Sovrath said:



    What the industry is missing is a clear career path to being a games designer. Everyone I've met who did a degree in games design said it was absolutely worthless as it bears no relation to the real world. There is no junior games designer, leading to middle, senior then lead designer.

    But there really should be. And if there was, I'd be applying for a job immediately :P
    The thing is, because it's a "creative field" there isn't a direct path and probably never will be.

    I don't know of a creative field that you sign up, do your "first job" and move up the line to "painter" or "Actor" or "Director" or "Author" or "Artist." etc.



    There are *loads* of creative fields that have a clear career path. I've personally hired a couple of junior artists / designers and watched them learn on the job, receive training, and move up to middle/senior positions.


    But, you're right, the more arty things become, the less clear the career path is.


    However, I would argue that games design isn't all that arty. It's mostly a mix of project manager and software engineer, with the vast majority of things that need designing being of a technical nature.

    I think the industry will catch up and start putting in these career paths. It makes sense long term. Obviously, only large companies will be able to have these clear paths, if you're making a game with only 10 people then theres no chance they can afford to have a junior designer on board! But companies like EA, Ubisoft etc, it absolutely makes sense to train up the next generation of designers internally. It's how you ensure high quality staff that meets the needs of the company.



    AlBQuirkyGdemami
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,830
    Sovrath said:


    The clear path to becoming a game designer is to learn programming and make a game OR have money to pay programmers.  I know it’s not what your typical game designer wants to do, but that’s how it is. Unless a programmer is getting paid they’re not likely to just do what others want. 

    Replace programmer with artists where necessary as well. 
    Well, not as easy as "learn programming and make a game" unless of course you mean very small games like "Papers Please" or some such thing.

    Talking with the head of Nine Dots Studios who made Outward, he said that it was touch and go until Outward got success. At one point he thought he wouldn't be able to continue the company.

    It's not like signing up for your first job in the mailroom and working your way up to CEO. it's seems to be a lot of hit and miss, as well as a game making learning curve.

    There's this game reviewer I just discovered, I like his stuff (though I really don't think I'd like his podcasts given the bits he's revealed in his review) and he reviewed two indy games.

    The second in this review is an asset flip. However, he goes on to say the one guy who did it is actually good and knew what he was doing even though he used assets bought in a store. The first game is also very good (obviously both not without flaws) and the developers, I guess a small team, knew what they were doing.

    So perhaps that falls more in the line of "learn programming and make a game." The thing is just because a person is a programmer doesn't mean they know jack about "making a game." They might be able to put it together, but making a coherent fun game is something else.

    here is the review. People should check out some of his other stuff as well. 

    That’s the difference between learning to program so you have a skill and learning it because you have a goal. If your goal Is to make games, then make games. Even if it’s pacman clone. Even if no one sees it. Then make another. The more you do the better you get, the better you get the more exposure you’ll have. 

    This is how you do it right now. Like it or not. I don’t believe there will ever be a path to designer that resembles any other field. It’s just a different ball game. 
    AlBQuirky
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 324
    edited May 28

    However, I would argue that games design isn't all that arty. It's mostly a mix of project manager and software engineer, with the vast majority of things that need designing being of a technical nature. 
    If you want to innovate, game design and even software engineering are a mix of "arty" and scientific - in a small percentage, but an important one to distinguish your product from the rest and get an edge. 

    Of course, you cannot get a good product out the door by ignoring all the existing best practices and research of both communities. Truisms, I know...

    Fun read: https://stevemcconnell.com/articles/the-art-science-and-engineering-of-software-development/
    AlBQuirky
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,534
    tzervo said:

    However, I would argue that games design isn't all that arty. It's mostly a mix of project manager and software engineer, with the vast majority of things that need designing being of a technical nature. 
    If you want to innovate, game design and even software engineering are a mix of "arty" and scientific - in a small percentage, but an important one to distinguish your product from the rest and get an edge. 

    Of course, you cannot get a good product out the door by ignoring all the existing best practices and research of both communities. Truisms, I know...

    Fun read: https://stevemcconnell.com/articles/the-art-science-and-engineering-of-software-development/

    Really enjoyed that article, thanks very much for sharing!
    tzervo
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,047
    Sovrath said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    What the guy said makes perfect sense.  Even if they didn't have to think about the legal implications of reviewing every idea that people submit I'm sure most of what they get from people is completely useless anyway.  I can imagine people suggesting vague things like, "Hey, why don't you make a game with cowboys."  and thinking that that is enough to create a great game.

    The real problem is that people actually working in the industry seem to have completely lost the ability to make enjoyable games.  Also, they tend to concentrate more on designing games as tools to herd people into cash shops than anything else.
    EXACTLY!

    The gaming industry started off with passion. Now it's full of businessmen in suits and advertising slogans. In my opinion, this industry was never supposed to be about making money. It just turned out that way.

    Late 90's and early 2000's we saw MMORPGs. Now in 2020, we have games designed around cash shops. It's a complete mockery of the genre and folks wonder why crowdfunded games exist.
    There's not a creative/entertainment industry out there that hasn't morphed (some a long time ago) into organizations that make money. Video games are no different.
    Maybe, but we used to have some great gaming companies, like BioWare before they sold their soul to the devil. There are a few good gaming companies out there, like CD Projekt Red, but they are few and far between.

    Unfortunately, for the MMORPG genre, it really is barely staying afloat. I'm struggling to have hope for Pantheon myself. Believe it or not, as much crap as I gave FunCom, they are actually one of the few core MMO companies I trust right now. Amazon already has money to burn, but I'm not sure if Smedley still has his head stuck in the clouds with $$$ in his eyes or if he can actually produce some games that are games instead of slot machines. Guess we'll see what happens.
    AlBQuirkyGdemami

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,814
    Rhoklaw said:
    Sovrath said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    What the guy said makes perfect sense.  Even if they didn't have to think about the legal implications of reviewing every idea that people submit I'm sure most of what they get from people is completely useless anyway.  I can imagine people suggesting vague things like, "Hey, why don't you make a game with cowboys."  and thinking that that is enough to create a great game.

    The real problem is that people actually working in the industry seem to have completely lost the ability to make enjoyable games.  Also, they tend to concentrate more on designing games as tools to herd people into cash shops than anything else.
    EXACTLY!

    The gaming industry started off with passion. Now it's full of businessmen in suits and advertising slogans. In my opinion, this industry was never supposed to be about making money. It just turned out that way.

    Late 90's and early 2000's we saw MMORPGs. Now in 2020, we have games designed around cash shops. It's a complete mockery of the genre and folks wonder why crowdfunded games exist.
    There's not a creative/entertainment industry out there that hasn't morphed (some a long time ago) into organizations that make money. Video games are no different.
    Maybe, but we used to have some great gaming companies, like BioWare before they sold their soul to the devil. There are a few good gaming companies out there, like CD Projekt Red, but they are few and far between.

    Unfortunately, for the MMORPG genre, it really is barely staying afloat. I'm struggling to have hope for Pantheon myself. Believe it or not, as much crap as I gave FunCom, they are actually one of the few core MMO companies I trust right now. Amazon already has money to burn, but I'm not sure if Smedley still has his head stuck in the clouds with $$$ in his eyes or if he can actually produce some games that are games instead of slot machines. Guess we'll see what happens.
    That wasn't where I thought Smedley had his head stuck.....
    AlBQuirkyRhoklaw

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

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