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Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia

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  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,019
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,019
    Alpha stage 275
    bcbully
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,515
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    Pantheon has been in Pre-Alpha for over 6 years.

    Originally, they stated previous beta targets and release goals, which are long past.



    Again, the entire premise of my argument was looking at which had more of a likelihood based on the information we had concerning them. That was the point. Going into platitudes that have no purpose within the evaluation does not have any relevance to the point of the discussion as I pointed out with the triage point. 


    Speculate all you like, but there are sound and unsound speculations. Your speculations are not looking at any relevant details and are not very helpful in the discussion. The entire point of my comments were that of building a sound position as to which was more likely to release. 

    In the end, yes... we don't know... but there is the difference between an educated assumption and that of wild speculation. Saying both are equal in failing is just wild speculation, without any legitimate evaluation and a useless summary in the face of the discussion at hand. 



    SoL has been in prealpha for 5 years..,
    They are currently in Alpha Stage 3, started their game in 2014? 

    Now this is based on my research of when the game first registered and started its game, which their FB account shows at 2014, and their first blog comments on the game was in that time as well.

    They currently state they are in Alpha stage 3 on their site, but apparently an anonymous poster who defies all verifiable evidence is... correct?

    Care to correct your statement, validate it?  
    What exactly is alpha phase 3? You mind linking a definition?

     Sounds like a made up term used to hype people to preorder.

    oh, excuse me SoL has been in development 6 years...
    Well, what does it mean? Well, they have already went through pre-Alpha, are in Alpha, and are set for Beta in July 2021, release in Q4 2021.

    So, what does Alpha mean? 

    Traditionally, it means the game is still having content and features implemented. Beta usually means that content and features are being tested and balanced. 


    You would likely have to read more carefully and follow more closely to SoL to see what Alpha means exactly to them. 



    I’m aware of what alpha is, as are most of us here. If you would please, link a definition of Alpha Phase 3. I don’t believe that’s a term that’s EVER been used before. 
    Post edited by bcbully on
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,737
    What is alpha phase 3 ?

    All companies FOR ANY PRODUCT often use their own terminally.

    They can use it to mark THEIR OWN MILESTONE'S in development.

    One game company can use the term to say they added several weapon for each class..... Another company can use the term to describe adding cities to their world.... Another company may not add the term phase 3 at all.
     

    It could be an IN-HOUSE MILESTONE for their own benefit.  A personal goal !!



    A vehicle manufacture could add the oil pan and fill their new engine with oil and call it "stage 14" because they feel it was a great personal goal in it's development. 




    Why do people get hung up and WANT A DEFINITION OF EVERYTHING ?
    bcbully
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,432
    edited May 2020
    What is alpha phase 3 ?

    All companies FOR ANY PRODUCT often use their own terminally.

    They can use it to mark THEIR OWN MILESTONE'S in development.

    One game company can use the term to say they added several weapon for each class..... Another company can use the term to describe adding cities to their world.... Another company may not add the term phase 3 at all.
     

    It could be an IN-HOUSE MILESTONE for their own benefit.  A personal goal !!



    A vehicle manufacture could add the oil pan and fill their new engine with oil and call it "stage 14" because they feel it was a great personal goal in it's development. 




    Why do people get hung up and WANT A DEFINITION OF EVERYTHING ?
    Without agreed upon definitions of common terms it can cause confusion in communication and reaching an understanding between involved parties.

    The word "release” used to be well understood and agreed upon years ago when used in the context of gaming, however these days it's been misused to the point I find it necessary to include how I define it in order to get my point across.

    So in this situation, how does alpha phase 3 relate to or differ from previous or successor phases?

    As you so often demand of VR / Pantheon, is SoL phase 3 about 50% complete overall, or 73.0564% of the way through alpha but only 22.076% of the overall schedule.

    Context is everything, otherwise the words are all just blah speak.





    tzervobcbully

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    bcbully said:
    Tanist said:
    Pantheon has been in Pre-Alpha for over 6 years.

    Originally, they stated previous beta targets and release goals, which are long past.



    Again, the entire premise of my argument was looking at which had more of a likelihood based on the information we had concerning them. That was the point. Going into platitudes that have no purpose within the evaluation does not have any relevance to the point of the discussion as I pointed out with the triage point. 


    Speculate all you like, but there are sound and unsound speculations. Your speculations are not looking at any relevant details and are not very helpful in the discussion. The entire point of my comments were that of building a sound position as to which was more likely to release. 

    In the end, yes... we don't know... but there is the difference between an educated assumption and that of wild speculation. Saying both are equal in failing is just wild speculation, without any legitimate evaluation and a useless summary in the face of the discussion at hand. 



    SoL has been in prealpha for 5 years..,
    They are currently in Alpha Stage 3, started their game in 2014? 

    Now this is based on my research of when the game first registered and started its game, which their FB account shows at 2014, and their first blog comments on the game was in that time as well.

    They currently state they are in Alpha stage 3 on their site, but apparently an anonymous poster who defies all verifiable evidence is... correct?

    Care to correct your statement, validate it?  
    What exactly is alpha phase 3? You mind linking a definition?

     Sounds like a made up term used to hype people to preorder.

    oh, excuse me SoL has been in development 6 years...
    Well, what does it mean? Well, they have already went through pre-Alpha, are in Alpha, and are set for Beta in July 2021, release in Q4 2021.

    So, what does Alpha mean? 

    Traditionally, it means the game is still having content and features implemented. Beta usually means that content and features are being tested and balanced. 


    You would likely have to read more carefully and follow more closely to SoL to see what Alpha means exactly to them. 



    I’m aware of what alpha is, as are most of us here. If you would please, link a definition of Alpha Phase 3. I don’t believe that’s a term that’s EVER been used before. 
    Like I said, if you want to know exactly what they think it means, you will have to follow the game and see what they explain as their progress goals. 

    Alpha we know "roughly" what it tends to be (this varies from project to project), so we could deduce that these are sub cycles they are going by within Alpha. 

    It isn't rocket science, but if you want to be obtuse... well.. there is no law against it, carry on. 
    bcbully
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    Kyleran said:
    What is alpha phase 3 ?

    All companies FOR ANY PRODUCT often use their own terminally.

    They can use it to mark THEIR OWN MILESTONE'S in development.

    One game company can use the term to say they added several weapon for each class..... Another company can use the term to describe adding cities to their world.... Another company may not add the term phase 3 at all.
     

    It could be an IN-HOUSE MILESTONE for their own benefit.  A personal goal !!



    A vehicle manufacture could add the oil pan and fill their new engine with oil and call it "stage 14" because they feel it was a great personal goal in it's development. 




    Why do people get hung up and WANT A DEFINITION OF EVERYTHING ?
    Without agreed upon definitions of common terms it can cause confusion in communication and reaching an understanding between involved parties.

    The word "release” used to be well understood and agreed upon years ago when used in the context of gaming, however these days it's been misused to the point I find it necessary to include how I define it in order to get my point across.

    So in this situation, how does alpha phase 3 relate to or differ from previous or successor phases?

    As you so often demand of VR / Pantheon, is SoL phase 3 about 50% complete overall, or 73.0564% of the way through alpha but only 22.076% of the overall schedule.

    Context is everything, otherwise the words are all just blah speak.





    We know what Alpha generally means, it isn't too much of a stretch to speculate that phases within Alpha are sub progressions to their over all Alpha completion goal. 

    If we knew how many phases, that might give an indication of completion goals. Though in the case of SoL, we also have a timeline as well (ie Beta in July 2021), sol we can at least see that Alpha for them is around a years worth of sub phases. Considering that they are claiming release in 4th Quarter 2021, my guess is they may be doing more in their Alpha phases than they expect to do in Beta (ie more detailed testing) as Beta seems to be short time between release.

    Considering what we do know about the stage (Alpha, not pre-Alpha) and the date with SoL, I think it is reasonable to make the assumption that SoL is further along than Pantheon. That would be enough context to make a loose determination. 
    bcbully
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    There are actually 20 phases of alpha and any release dates that are 1+ years out are bullshit.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 6,660
    "Terminally" oh dear, it does seem terminal.

  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    There are actually 20 phases of alpha and any release dates that are 1+ years out are bullshit.
    There are 20 phases? Or are you just talking out of your rear? 

    I wouldn't call release dates 1+ years out "BS", as it all depends on the company, the project, etc...

    This is an activity of speculation. One can participate, using logical means to argue a particular position, or... they can simply dismiss and call everything BS. The latter isn't very useful for discussion, though it does fulfill a certain level of narcissistic need. 
    bcbully
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Tanist said:
    There are actually 20 phases of alpha and any release dates that are 1+ years out are bullshit.


    This is an activity of speculation. 
    Now you're getting it.
    KyleranbcbullyYashaX
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,432
    Tanist said:
    Kyleran said:
    What is alpha phase 3 ?

    All companies FOR ANY PRODUCT often use their own terminally.

    They can use it to mark THEIR OWN MILESTONE'S in development.

    One game company can use the term to say they added several weapon for each class..... Another company can use the term to describe adding cities to their world.... Another company may not add the term phase 3 at all.
     

    It could be an IN-HOUSE MILESTONE for their own benefit.  A personal goal !!



    A vehicle manufacture could add the oil pan and fill their new engine with oil and call it "stage 14" because they feel it was a great personal goal in it's development. 




    Why do people get hung up and WANT A DEFINITION OF EVERYTHING ?
    Without agreed upon definitions of common terms it can cause confusion in communication and reaching an understanding between involved parties.

    The word "release” used to be well understood and agreed upon years ago when used in the context of gaming, however these days it's been misused to the point I find it necessary to include how I define it in order to get my point across.

    So in this situation, how does alpha phase 3 relate to or differ from previous or successor phases?

    As you so often demand of VR / Pantheon, is SoL phase 3 about 50% complete overall, or 73.0564% of the way through alpha but only 22.076% of the overall schedule.

    Context is everything, otherwise the words are all just blah speak.





    We know what Alpha generally means, it isn't too much of a stretch to speculate that phases within Alpha are sub progressions to their over all Alpha completion goal. 

    If we knew how many phases, that might give an indication of completion goals. Though in the case of SoL, we also have a timeline as well (ie Beta in July 2021), sol we can at least see that Alpha for them is around a years worth of sub phases. Considering that they are claiming release in 4th Quarter 2021, my guess is they may be doing more in their Alpha phases than they expect to do in Beta (ie more detailed testing) as Beta seems to be short time between release.

    Considering what we do know about the stage (Alpha, not pre-Alpha) and the date with SoL, I think it is reasonable to make the assumption that SoL is further along than Pantheon. That would be enough context to make a loose determination. 
    See, put in the proper context alpha phase 3 is more clear, especially when comparing to other efforts such as SC which are now on Alpha 3.10 with plans to move into 4.0 and beyond. No way to tell when it will end or move into beta.

    Speaking of which, CU has been in Beta for well over a year now, yet by most agreed upon standards it really is still more of an alpha seeing as they are just now striving towards a number of milestones normally present in most other betas, such as 24 by ”3” test environment.

    Notable in this example as while SC, CF and Dual Universe are alphas with 24 x 7 test environments, last I heard SoL is still on a much more limited availability schedule, was just one evening a week as I recall.

    So perhaps they aren't as far along as those other 3 efforts, therefore their projections of beta start and release are somewhat suspect?

    I will agree, Pantheon is more of a ghost effort at this point with few discernable milestones being displayed publically, which is one reason why I have them very high on the list of games likely to fail soon.

    I don't believe they have the funding they need to realize their dream unless the go the early access route or perhaps even release their Project Farfenal or what ever it's called as a playable module or even single player game to raise more cash.

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Tanist said:
    There are actually 20 phases of alpha and any release dates that are 1+ years out are bullshit.


    This is an activity of speculation. 
    Now you're getting it.
    I knew it from the start. I argued from such. Your argument is like the idiot that walks into the conversation mid way and states a point that everyone already knows. 

    Thank you captain obvious, or should I say narcissist.
     
    delete5230YashaX
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    Kyleran said:
    Tanist said:
    Kyleran said:
    What is alpha phase 3 ?

    All companies FOR ANY PRODUCT often use their own terminally.

    They can use it to mark THEIR OWN MILESTONE'S in development.

    One game company can use the term to say they added several weapon for each class..... Another company can use the term to describe adding cities to their world.... Another company may not add the term phase 3 at all.
     

    It could be an IN-HOUSE MILESTONE for their own benefit.  A personal goal !!



    A vehicle manufacture could add the oil pan and fill their new engine with oil and call it "stage 14" because they feel it was a great personal goal in it's development. 




    Why do people get hung up and WANT A DEFINITION OF EVERYTHING ?
    Without agreed upon definitions of common terms it can cause confusion in communication and reaching an understanding between involved parties.

    The word "release” used to be well understood and agreed upon years ago when used in the context of gaming, however these days it's been misused to the point I find it necessary to include how I define it in order to get my point across.

    So in this situation, how does alpha phase 3 relate to or differ from previous or successor phases?

    As you so often demand of VR / Pantheon, is SoL phase 3 about 50% complete overall, or 73.0564% of the way through alpha but only 22.076% of the overall schedule.

    Context is everything, otherwise the words are all just blah speak.





    We know what Alpha generally means, it isn't too much of a stretch to speculate that phases within Alpha are sub progressions to their over all Alpha completion goal. 

    If we knew how many phases, that might give an indication of completion goals. Though in the case of SoL, we also have a timeline as well (ie Beta in July 2021), sol we can at least see that Alpha for them is around a years worth of sub phases. Considering that they are claiming release in 4th Quarter 2021, my guess is they may be doing more in their Alpha phases than they expect to do in Beta (ie more detailed testing) as Beta seems to be short time between release.

    Considering what we do know about the stage (Alpha, not pre-Alpha) and the date with SoL, I think it is reasonable to make the assumption that SoL is further along than Pantheon. That would be enough context to make a loose determination. 
    See, put in the proper context alpha phase 3 is more clear, especially when comparing to other efforts such as SC which are now on Alpha 3.10 with plans to move into 4.0 and beyond. No way to tell when it will end or move into beta.

    Speaking of which, CU has been in Beta for well over a year now, yet by most agreed upon standards it really is still more of an alpha seeing as they are just now striving towards a number of milestones normally present in most other betas, such as 24 by ”3” test environment.

    Notable in this example as while SC, CF and Dual Universe are alphas with 24 x 7 test environments, last I heard SoL is still on a much more limited availability schedule, was just one evening a week as I recall.

    So perhaps they aren't as far along as those other 3 efforts, therefore their projections of beta start and release are somewhat suspect?

    I will agree, Pantheon is more of a ghost effort at this point with few discernable milestones being displayed publically, which is one reason why I have them very high on the list of games likely to fail soon.

    I don't believe they have the funding they need to realize their dream unless the go the early access route or perhaps even release their Project Farfenal or what ever it's called as a playable module or even single player game to raise more cash.

    What makes you think Pantheon doesn't have enough funding?

    They are very private about their financial state, so all we have to go by is their actions.

    Based on all of the actions of the Pantheon team to this point, it leads me to conclude they are doing okay financially.

    1) they aren't selling pay-to-win items in a cash shop
    2) they aren't publishing a release date
    3) they've discontinued old pledge packages and increased prices for rewards over the years

    To me, none of these actions remind me of a company struggling financially. If they really needed more pledge money, then you'd think they would do the opposite of these points.
    Dullahandcutbi001
    --------------------------------------------
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,094


    What makes you think Pantheon doesn't have enough funding?

    They are very private about their financial state, so all we have to go by is their actions.

    Based on all of the actions of the Pantheon team to this point, it leads me to conclude they are doing okay financially.

    1) they aren't selling pay-to-win items in a cash shop
    2) they aren't publishing a release date
    3) they've discontinued old pledge packages and increased prices for rewards over the years

    To me, none of these actions remind me of a company struggling financially. If they really needed more pledge money, then you'd think they would do the opposite of these points.
    They do have a rather expensive store with some expensive items. That doesn't mean they are struggling but it does point to to a little bit of desperation. I "think."

    I mean, 16 dollar mug? 30 dollar tumbler?

    Probably knowing that they will only sell so many of those things and want to maximize what they get. Then again that depends on the quality of their product and how many they actually bought to have in stock.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,432
    edited May 2020
    Kyleran said:
    Tanist said:
    Kyleran said:






    I will agree, Pantheon is more of a ghost effort at this point with few discernable milestones being displayed publically, which is one reason why I have them very high on the list of games likely to fail soon.

    I don't believe they have the funding they need to realize their dream unless the go the early access route or perhaps even release their Project Farfenal or what ever it's called as a playable module or even single player game to raise more cash.

    What makes you think Pantheon doesn't have enough funding?

    They are very private about their financial state, so all we have to go by is their actions.

    Based on all of the actions of the Pantheon team to this point, it leads me to conclude they are doing okay financially.

    1) they aren't selling pay-to-win items in a cash shop
    2) they aren't publishing a release date
    3) they've discontinued old pledge packages and increased prices for rewards over the years

    To me, none of these actions remind me of a company struggling financially. If they really needed more pledge money, then you'd think they would do the opposite of these points.
    Except that....they've always been fairly transparent on when they received investor funding in the past so I am assuming no recent announcements equates to nothing new as indie dev teams typically shout any good funding news from the roof tops, i.e. CU, CF, SC and even SoL.

    September's newsletter is when we found out they didn't have all the money they need to complete development, as seen in this excerpt. (emphasis mine)

    ”I wanted to take a moment to talk a little about how Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is funded, and to introduce our newest revenue generator.

    As you probably already know, the bulk of our funding comes directly from you, through crowdfunding. Your pledges allow us to keep the lights on and keep the team fed.”

    He goes on to discuss the  pledge tiers.

    ”...so we have a whole slew of different pledge rewards on offer.”

    Wrapping up with, 

    ”We’re happy to say that you can start gearing up with Pantheon today at our new Pantheon Merch Store! Here’s the great bit: every bit of profit from the store goes into making Terminus a reality.”

    Burn rates are a real thing, unless the team is working for free, (as the owners of SoL have been) money is being consumed at a steady rate so if the new, incoming backer funding comes to a halt, well, you likely will get what occurred with COE recently.

    Other clues, four year employee, crafting dev lead,  left saying while he enjoyed his time on Pantheon working remotely all of the time had begun to wear on him.

    I once found a photo of their ”office" but it was devoid of any people or evidence of activity, could have been a stock photo for all I could tell. I suspect there is no office or if so, few work there. While not necessarily a requirement to deliver a game, not having one is a solid red flag in my book.

    Brad's tragic death took away their key ”front man,” which almost every other indie effort has and whose key role is to inspire others to invest in their vision.

    Again, not fatal but it does further reduce their likelihood of interesting outside investors and likely discouraged some backers who may no longer believe or are waiting see if this ship will stay the course. 

    This from the December newsletter clearly shows their need to solicit more funding.

    ”Pantheon is largely crowdfunded, and we also have some amazing angel investors. One of those investors has opened an investment syndicate to pool smaller amounts for investment in Pantheon.

    Visionary Realms does not manage this syndicate, but we would be happy to connect you with them if you email [email protected].

    We also welcome direct investments into Visionary Realms for accredited investors. Every dollar goes directly to moving Pantheon closer to release.”

    Yes, I know these announcements are couched with blah speak about money to be used to accelerate (hah) development, but I've long since learned to cut through such BS and know if these funding taps slow too much, they likely will push out early what they have to date, or close the doors.

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_september_underwraps/

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_december_producers_letter/

    tzervo

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,019
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,440
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Tanist said:
    Kyleran said:






    I will agree, Pantheon is more of a ghost effort at this point with few discernable milestones being displayed publically, which is one reason why I have them very high on the list of games likely to fail soon.

    I don't believe they have the funding they need to realize their dream unless the go the early access route or perhaps even release their Project Farfenal or what ever it's called as a playable module or even single player game to raise more cash.

    What makes you think Pantheon doesn't have enough funding?

    They are very private about their financial state, so all we have to go by is their actions.

    Based on all of the actions of the Pantheon team to this point, it leads me to conclude they are doing okay financially.

    1) they aren't selling pay-to-win items in a cash shop
    2) they aren't publishing a release date
    3) they've discontinued old pledge packages and increased prices for rewards over the years

    To me, none of these actions remind me of a company struggling financially. If they really needed more pledge money, then you'd think they would do the opposite of these points.
    Except that....they've always been fairly transparent on when they received investor funding in the past so I am assuming no recent announcements equates to nothing new as indie dev teams typically shout any good funding news from the roof tops, i.e. CU, CF, SC and even SoL.

    September's newsletter is when we found out they didn't have all the money they need to complete development, as seen in this excerpt. (emphasis mine)

    ”I wanted to take a moment to talk a little about how Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is funded, and to introduce our newest revenue generator.

    As you probably already know, the bulk of our funding comes directly from you, through crowdfunding. Your pledges allow us to keep the lights on and keep the team fed.”

    He goes on to discuss the  pledge tiers.

    ”...so we have a whole slew of different pledge rewards on offer.”

    Wrapping up with, 

    ”We’re happy to say that you can start gearing up with Pantheon today at our new Pantheon Merch Store! Here’s the great bit: every bit of profit from the store goes into making Terminus a reality.”

    Burn rates are a real thing, unless the team is working for free, (as the owners of SoL have been) money is being consumed at a steady rate so if the new, incoming backer funding comes to a halt, well, you likely will get what occurred with COE recently.

    Other clues, four year employee, crafting dev lead,  left saying while he enjoyed his time on Pantheon working remotely all of the time had begun to wear on him.

    I once found a photo of their ”office" but it was devoid of any people or evidence of activity, could have been a stock photo for all I could tell. I suspect there is no office or if so, few work there. While not necessarily a requirement to deliver a game, not having one is a solid red flag in my book.

    Brad's tragic death took away their key ”front man,” which almost every other indie effort has and whose key role is to inspire others to invest in their vision.

    Again, not fatal but it does further reduce their likelihood of interesting outside investors and likely discouraged some backers who may no longer believe or are waiting see if this ship will stay the course. 

    This from the December newsletter clearly shows their need to solicit more funding.

    ”Pantheon is largely crowdfunded, and we also have some amazing angel investors. One of those investors has opened an investment syndicate to pool smaller amounts for investment in Pantheon.

    Visionary Realms does not manage this syndicate, but we would be happy to connect you with them if you email [email protected].

    We also welcome direct investments into Visionary Realms for accredited investors. Every dollar goes directly to moving Pantheon closer to release.”

    Yes, I know these announcements are couched with blah speak about money to be used to accelerate (hah) development, but I've long since learned to cut through such BS and know if these funding taps slow too much, they likely will push out early what they have to date, or close the doors.

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_september_underwraps/

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_december_producers_letter/


    None of that screams a desperate company about to run out of money to me.

    Yes, Brad's death was very tragic and IMO a big blow to the project.

    However:

    1) accepting pledge money and saying how valuable it is,
    2) opening a high-priced merch store and stating the profit goes to help fund the project,
    3) the project taking longer than YOU expected (we don't know their internal timeline or burn rate)
    4) a long-time dev leaving the project due to remote work burnout,
    5) having a remote team (since the beginning),
    6) accepting investor money,

    none of that is evidence of a company about to run out of money to me. Am I missing something?

    Obviously, if the pledge and/or investment money they're relying on goes away they will be in financial trouble. But what leads you to conclude that actually is happening?

    I think you're drawing conclusions from other crowdfunding failures (CoE) and unfairly projecting them onto this game.
    dcutbi001
    --------------------------------------------
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    bcbullyYashaX
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,019
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    You quoted a post of sarcasm directed toward someone else. I told you as much, yet you still acted like what you had to say mattered, you dumb animal.
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    edited May 2020
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    You quoted a post of sarcasm directed toward someone else. I told you as much, yet you still acted like what you had to say mattered, you dumb animal.
    1. When responding to someone, quote them. This avoids creating confusion. 

    2. Your sarcasm is also confusing. It implies that Delete's support for SoL and dislike for Pantheon is imbalanced. My point was that SoL is in better position than Pantheon . I am equally evaluating both and Delete seems to be making a similar conclusion, regardless of how poorly he argues its supporting premises. 


    3. When trying to clear up a miscommunication, one makes an effort to be more clear. You continued on in typical immature internet fashion with one liners.

    4. If you want to call out my behavior with an insult, by all means. If you want to call my arguments  with a derogatory name, have at it. That is fair game, but you again resorted to the argument of a kid on the internet by directly, personally attacking me, not my argument.





  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,019
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    You quoted a post of sarcasm directed toward someone else. I told you as much, yet you still acted like what you had to say mattered, you dumb animal.
    1. When responding to someone, quote them. This avoids creating confusion. 

    2. Your sarcasm is also confusing. It implies that Delete's support for SoL and dislike for Pantheon is imbalanced. My point was that SoL is in better position than Pantheon . I am equally evaluating both and Delete seems to be making a similar conclusion, regardless of how poorly he argues its supporting premises. 


    3. When trying to clear up a miscommunication, one makes an effort to be more clear. You continued on in typical immature internet fashion with one liners.

    4. If you want to call out my behavior with an insult, by all means. If you want to call my arguments  with a derogatory name, have at it. That is fair game, but you again resorted to the argument of a kid on the internet by directly, personally attacking me, not my argument.






    I replied to the thread not to you. Feeling entitled much?
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,096
    These two games will shake the foundations of the gaming landscape as we know it.
    delete5230tzervobcbully
  • TanistTanist Member UncommonPosts: 272
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    Tanist said:
    I've seen more of Pantheon than Saga of Lucimia. I wonder if they're even working on it.
    Pantheon has been marketing a lot more (not sure that is a good use of time things considered) and while there are a lot more videos out there of play, a lot of them are just play over the same content they have released or various tech demos on "new" things they are implementing.

    This may or may not be a valid point you have, hard to say.

    Here is the list of videos of various pre-alpha to alpha footage for SoL

    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=saga+of+lucimia+gameplay+

    So...

    While I understand to an extent your point about lacking the same level of media out as Pantheon, claiming that you are wondering if they are working on it is really just an argument that isn't very credible.

    Apparently this is your first delete thread. This is the argument he presents through every single one of his Pantheon threads (they're not showing enough) yet I've seen him praise SoL.

    The bottom line is game companies shouldn't show too much, spoilers and all, but if you're going to make an argument for one game, the same one should be made for others.
    My arguments stand on their own, irrelevant of Deletes comments. I explained my evaluation on both games and why I tend lean more to that of SoL. I merely commented your obviously dismissing comment about SoL as you promoted Pantheon. 
    /WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
    Use your words, it is more intelligible that way. 
    I did, they flew right over your head.
    Intelligible worlds. When one makes no effort to explain their point, the have none and might as well make sounds like a dumb animal. 
    You quoted a post of sarcasm directed toward someone else. I told you as much, yet you still acted like what you had to say mattered, you dumb animal.
    1. When responding to someone, quote them. This avoids creating confusion. 

    2. Your sarcasm is also confusing. It implies that Delete's support for SoL and dislike for Pantheon is imbalanced. My point was that SoL is in better position than Pantheon . I am equally evaluating both and Delete seems to be making a similar conclusion, regardless of how poorly he argues its supporting premises. 


    3. When trying to clear up a miscommunication, one makes an effort to be more clear. You continued on in typical immature internet fashion with one liners.

    4. If you want to call out my behavior with an insult, by all means. If you want to call my arguments  with a derogatory name, have at it. That is fair game, but you again resorted to the argument of a kid on the internet by directly, personally attacking me, not my argument.






    I replied to the thread not to you. Feeling entitled much?
    So you are moving the goal posts it seems.

    First you say I responded to you when you were referring to someone else (hard to tell when you don't quote who you are responding to).

    Now you are saying you were responding to the thread, not a person? 

    Which is it? The thread or the person? I mean, you argued a whole line, smug one liners and all to proclaim the latter, but now you are saying you are responding to the thread?

    Thing is, if you are responding to the thread, that is fair game for response, so again, you are being confusing. 

    Problem with a lie is that you have to keep lying to cover for the previous lies. You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

    I think we are done though, it is obvious you have no real argument. 


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