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Interesting video from Mark Kern on why game developers don't listen to armchair developers.

RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124
Actually, Mark refers to those of us gamers with amazing ideas as "paper tigers" but we've seem to have coined ourselves as armchair developers. Anyhow, he pretty much explains why ideas are a dime a dozen. He also goes on to say the legalities behind even reading or listening to ideas is just not worth it. So if you're like me, a passionate gamer full of ideas, rest assured, that unless you own a game developing company, it will never come to fruition.


tzervoBabuinixIselinAlBQuirkyAmatheUngood
«13

Comments

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    ...and that's supposed to be revealing?
    delete5230IselinKyleranalkarionlog
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 489
    Gdemami said:
    ...and that's supposed to be revealing?
    Not to some, but to those that need convincing and have a small chance to be convinced, him telling this carries more weight than you or me.
    RhoklawUngood
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,042
    edited May 24
    Rhoklaw said:
    Actually, (a)Mark refers to those of us gamers with amazing ideas as "paper tigers" but we've seem to have coined ourselves as armchair developers. Anyhow, he pretty much explains why ideas are a dime a dozen. He also goes on to say the legalities behind even reading or listening to ideas is just not worth it. (b)So if you're like me, a passionate gamer full of ideas, rest assured, that unless you own a game developing company, it will never come to fruition.
    (a) No he didn't called "gamers with ideas" paper designers. He called designers that only write theories but don't actually implement them: "Paper Tigers or Paper Designers".

    (b)If you're a gamer full of ideas for a game maybe stop dreaming and put the work to create them like others did:



    Main points of the video are:

    - Ideas are Cheap, Implemention is everything.
    - 99% of Gamers have no idea how game development works.

    More on the subject:




    Post edited by Babuinix on
    GdemamiSovrath
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    I have an idea !!

    Make combat challenging instead of rounding everything up and killing everything intently. 

    Tell him that. 
    mmoloualkarionlog
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,202
    I have an idea !!

    Make combat challenging instead of rounding everything up and killing everything intently. 

    Tell him that. 
    Out of curiosity what game are you playing that this is the gameplay. That sounds like an ARPG.

    I cannot do that in DDO and I definitely couldn't in Everquest and at best may have been the late 50's in those AOE groups but even then one mistake and we were all dead.

    Why do you continue to play such crappy games ?
    AlBQuirkyUngood
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • mmoloummolou Member UncommonPosts: 245
    cheyane said:
    I have an idea !!

    Make combat challenging instead of rounding everything up and killing everything intently. 

    Tell him that. 
    Out of curiosity what game are you playing that this is the gameplay. That sounds like an ARPG.

    I cannot do that in DDO and I definitely couldn't in Everquest and at best may have been the late 50's in those AOE groups but even then one mistake and we were all dead.

    Why do you continue to play such crappy games ?
    Best thing you can do is ignore Delete, last time I responded to them, it was when they claimed that you can play ANY mmo, go from level 1 to level 60, by rounding up every mob in a zone, at once, and kill them all with one button, without taking any damage.

    I said it was bullshit, asked them to provide a video, showing this taking place, real time,  and am still waiting.

    But they continue to make post after post, crying about mmo's and the lack of "difficulty".
    It is a funny world we live in.
    We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    cheyane said:
    I have an idea !!

    Make combat challenging instead of rounding everything up and killing everything intently. 

    Tell him that. 
    Out of curiosity what game are you playing that this is the gameplay. That sounds like an ARPG.

    I cannot do that in DDO and I definitely couldn't in Everquest and at best may have been the late 50's in those AOE groups but even then one mistake and we were all dead.

    Why do you continue to play such crappy games ?
    ESO Retail WoW Lotro and FF14....Breeze your way to end game. 
    Just to name a few and played most of the popular ones.  Others like BDO You can watch any Youtube and get the idea instantly. 
    deniter
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,042
    edited May 24

    *wrong thread lol
    Post edited by Babuinix on
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124
    Babuinix said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Actually, (a)Mark refers to those of us gamers with amazing ideas as "paper tigers" but we've seem to have coined ourselves as armchair developers. Anyhow, he pretty much explains why ideas are a dime a dozen. He also goes on to say the legalities behind even reading or listening to ideas is just not worth it. (b)So if you're like me, a passionate gamer full of ideas, rest assured, that unless you own a game developing company, it will never come to fruition.
    (a) No he didn't called "gamers with ideas" paper designers. He called designers that only write theories but don't actually implement them: "Paper Tigers or Paper Designers".

    (b)If you're a gamer full of ideas for a game maybe stop dreaming and put the work to create them like others did:



    Main points of the video are:

    - Ideas are Cheap, Implemention is everything.
    - 99% of Gamers have no idea how game development works.

    More on the subject:




    (a) So you're saying gamers don't write out lengthy 60 page game ideas? You don't need to be a "game designer" to design games. Pretty sure his entire video was referencing anyone with an idea about game design, not just people that work in the gaming industry.

    (b) I'm not sure if you read my entire pre video comment but I specifically stated that unless you own a game development company, you're gaming ideas won't see fruition. So who exactly are you trying to convince here? Me or yourself? I already knew this, so I guess you must be arguing with yourself.
    mmolou

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,202
    cheyane said:
    I have an idea !!

    Make combat challenging instead of rounding everything up and killing everything intently. 

    Tell him that. 
    Out of curiosity what game are you playing that this is the gameplay. That sounds like an ARPG.

    I cannot do that in DDO and I definitely couldn't in Everquest and at best may have been the late 50's in those AOE groups but even then one mistake and we were all dead.

    Why do you continue to play such crappy games ?
    ESO Retail WoW Lotro and FF14....Breeze your way to end game. 
    Just to name a few and played most of the popular ones.  Others like BDO You can watch any Youtube and get the idea instantly. 
    You did that in FFXIV I call bullshit on that. In dungeons with others ? LotRO also don't believe you or must have played it at very low levels but even at those levels you would have died if you tried that. Pull the other one you're lying to make a point and that is easily found out by anyone who plays these games.


    mmolouRhoklawAlBQuirkyUngood
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited May 24
    cheyane said:
    cheyane said:
    I have an idea !!

    Make combat challenging instead of rounding everything up and killing everything intently. 

    Tell him that. 
    Out of curiosity what game are you playing that this is the gameplay. That sounds like an ARPG.

    I cannot do that in DDO and I definitely couldn't in Everquest and at best may have been the late 50's in those AOE groups but even then one mistake and we were all dead.

    Why do you continue to play such crappy games ?
    ESO Retail WoW Lotro and FF14....Breeze your way to end game. 
    Just to name a few and played most of the popular ones.  Others like BDO You can watch any Youtube and get the idea instantly. 
    You did that in FFXIV I call bullshit on that. In dungeons with others ? LotRO also don't believe you or must have played it at very low levels but even at those levels you would have died if you tried that. Pull the other one you're lying to make a point and that is easily found out by anyone who plays these games.


    I knew this question was a setup.
    You had your answer already, responded anyway, and walked right into it.  

    Trying to get things done in the yard, will respond later to anymore.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,388
    edited May 24
    Rhoklaw said:
    Actually, Mark refers to those of us gamers with amazing ideas as "paper tigers" but we've seem to have coined ourselves as armchair developers. Anyhow, he pretty much explains why ideas are a dime a dozen. He also goes on to say the legalities behind even reading or listening to ideas is just not worth it. So if you're like me, a passionate gamer full of ideas, rest assured, that unless you own a game developing company, it will never come to fruition.


    Funny that you watched that and your first thought was gamers shooting the shit about game ideas.

    It's orders of magnitude much more on point when you think of the Jeromy Walshs and Jason Appletons of the world as the paper designers he's talking about.

    GdemamitzervoachesomaAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,821
    What the guy said makes perfect sense.  Even if they didn't have to think about the legal implications of reviewing every idea that people submit I'm sure most of what they get from people is completely useless anyway.  I can imagine people suggesting vague things like, "Hey, why don't you make a game with cowboys."  and thinking that that is enough to create a great game.

    The real problem is that people actually working in the industry seem to have completely lost the ability to make enjoyable games.  Also, they tend to concentrate more on designing games as tools to herd people into cash shops than anything else.
    RhoklawtzervonewbismxAlBQuirkydeniterNilden
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124
    What the guy said makes perfect sense.  Even if they didn't have to think about the legal implications of reviewing every idea that people submit I'm sure most of what they get from people is completely useless anyway.  I can imagine people suggesting vague things like, "Hey, why don't you make a game with cowboys."  and thinking that that is enough to create a great game.

    The real problem is that people actually working in the industry seem to have completely lost the ability to make enjoyable games.  Also, they tend to concentrate more on designing games as tools to herd people into cash shops than anything else.
    EXACTLY!

    The gaming industry started off with passion. Now it's full of businessmen in suits and advertising slogans. In my opinion, this industry was never supposed to be about making money. It just turned out that way.

    Late 90's and early 2000's we saw MMORPGs. Now in 2020, we have games designed around cash shops. It's a complete mockery of the genre and folks wonder why crowdfunded games exist.
    GdemamiAlBQuirkydeniterNilden

  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,042
    Rhoklaw said:
    (a) So you're saying gamers don't write out lengthy 60 page game ideas? You don't need to be a "game designer" to design games. Pretty sure his entire video was referencing anyone with an idea about game design, not just people that work in the gaming industry.

    (b) I'm not sure if you read my entire pre video comment but I specifically stated that unless you own a game development company, you're gaming ideas won't see fruition. So who exactly are you trying to convince here? Me or yourself? I already knew this, so I guess you must be arguing with yourself.
    Writing lengthy 60 page game ideas makes you a game designer just like writing a 60 page history makes you a writer.

    What matters is what comes to fruition from those concepts/drafts. Like he said, ideas are cheap.

    (b) You watched the video? It's a single developer doing everything all by himself from his home. Many dev's work from home and in small teams. No studio involved. The most popular games of today derivated from Mod's made by young guys in their houses for fun.

    That you need to "own a development company" is bullshit and an excuse for lazy gamers to keep pretending they know better than the people who actually do game dev for a living.
    Gdemami
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 7,124
    Babuinix said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    (a) So you're saying gamers don't write out lengthy 60 page game ideas? You don't need to be a "game designer" to design games. Pretty sure his entire video was referencing anyone with an idea about game design, not just people that work in the gaming industry.

    (b) I'm not sure if you read my entire pre video comment but I specifically stated that unless you own a game development company, you're gaming ideas won't see fruition. So who exactly are you trying to convince here? Me or yourself? I already knew this, so I guess you must be arguing with yourself.
    Writing lengthy 60 page game ideas makes you a game designer just like writing a 60 page history makes you a writer.

    What matters is what comes to fruition from those concepts/drafts. Like he said, ideas are cheap.

    (b) You watched the video? It's a single developer doing everything all by himself from his home. Many dev's work from home and in small teams. No studio involved. The most popular games of today derivated from Mod's made by young guys in their houses for fun.

    That you need to "own a development company" is bullshit and an excuse for lazy gamers to keep pretending they know better than the people who actually do game dev for a living.
    First off, I will always praise games like Stardew and Minecraft. However, without a gaming company to back you, that is ALL you will see from indie developers. You certainly won't see anything close to AAA quality from a single indie developer.

    Of course, you don't need top end graphics to make a game popular, but it does help. Some game design ideas are even too complicated for career veterans to implement. I'm sure you've heard of Jeremy Walsh and Chronicles of Elyria right? Not everything can be easily developed for a single person, let alone several people.

    So unless my great game idea can mimic Minecraft or Stardew simplicity, than no, you'll definitely need a game studio to get it done.
    Gdemami

  • BrotherMaynardBrotherMaynard Member UncommonPosts: 189
    Babuinix said:

    - Ideas are Cheap, Implemention is everything.
    - 99% of Gamers have no idea how game development works.


    Lol, that's rich, coming from Kern. Mark "Lets pretend WoW was my last game" Kern.

    How's FireFall doing, Mark? You had a pretty strong implementation phase there - for the entire 5-year long beta, right? Satisfied gamers, motivated team, stable development and working environment - by now it must be one of the top MMOs, right?

    He should have begun that vid of his with dramatic music and deep voice announcing "From the Man who brought you the FireFall Bus..."


    IselinGdemamiachesomaNildenBruceYee
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,388
    Babuinix said:

    - Ideas are Cheap, Implemention is everything.
    - 99% of Gamers have no idea how game development works.


    Lol, that's rich, coming from Kern. Mark "Lets pretend WoW was my last game" Kern.

    How's FireFall doing, Mark? You had a pretty strong implementation phase there - for the entire 5-year long beta, right? Satisfied gamers, motivated team, stable development and working environment - by now it must be one of the top MMOs, right?

    He should have begun that vid of his with dramatic music and deep voice announcing "From the Man who brought you the FireFall Bus..."


    ...and there is that as well :)
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • BabuinixBabuinix Member EpicPosts: 3,042
    Babuinix said:

    - Ideas are Cheap, Implemention is everything.
    - 99% of Gamers have no idea how game development works.

    Lol, that's rich, coming from Kern. Mark "Lets pretend WoW was my last game" Kern.

    How's FireFall doing, Mark? You had a pretty strong implementation phase there - for the entire 5-year long beta, right? Satisfied gamers, motivated team, stable development and working environment - by now it must be one of the top MMOs, right?

    He should have begun that vid of his with dramatic music and deep voice announcing "From the Man who brought you the FireFall Bus..."
    There it is, that ignorance about game development in general that makes you assume that what happened with Firefall hasn't happened to every other developer who's been in the industry for as long as Kern.

    About 80% of gaming projects never see the light of day. That you can build a product fun enough to warrant a Beta and gather a community of players is a achievement on it's own.

    But ofc you know better than the people doing this for a living. Yeah Right!

    No wonder dev's are so afraid to show work in progress or take time to improove their games, they get ripped to shreds by the same idiots who call for their heads when the game comes out rushed lol
    IselinGdemamiRhoklawalkarionlog
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,329
    Gdemami said:
    ...and that's supposed to be revealing?
    Have to agree with you. Mark who?

    It's very obvious developers haven't been listening to any of my great ideas or the market would be flooded with dozens of awesome, inspiring and enlighting MMORPGs instead of the genre limping along in almost total life support as is the case today.

     :D 
    bcbullyRhoklawAlBQuirkyalkarionlog

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • achesomaachesoma Member RarePosts: 1,274
    It's kind of a generic "ideas are cheap" speech. He's not wrong but this can be applied to any field, not just gaming industry. The logistical ability to see projects to fruition is the challenging part.
    tzervoKyleranAlBQuirky

  • BrotherMaynardBrotherMaynard Member UncommonPosts: 189
    Babuinix said:
    Babuinix said:

    - Ideas are Cheap, Implemention is everything.
    - 99% of Gamers have no idea how game development works.

    Lol, that's rich, coming from Kern. Mark "Lets pretend WoW was my last game" Kern.

    How's FireFall doing, Mark? You had a pretty strong implementation phase there - for the entire 5-year long beta, right? Satisfied gamers, motivated team, stable development and working environment - by now it must be one of the top MMOs, right?

    He should have begun that vid of his with dramatic music and deep voice announcing "From the Man who brought you the FireFall Bus..."
    There it is, that ignorance about game development in general that makes you assume that what happened with Firefall hasn't happened to every other developer who's been in the industry for as long as Kern.

    About 80% of gaming projects never see the light of day. That you can build a product fun enough to warrant a Beta and gather a community of players is a achievement on it's own.

    But ofc you know better than the people doing this for a living. Yeah Right!

    No wonder dev's are so afraid to show work in progress or take time to improove their games, they get ripped to shreds by the same idiots who call for their heads when the game comes out rushed lol

    Feel free to brown-nose him all you want. For facts, just look up old articles about Kern's mind-boggling mismanagement of the game and of the dev team - loads of them can be found on Massively and perhaps here too.

    The way he managed to screw up such a promising game and drive his own team into depression, before the whole thing collapsed is hard to find elsewhere. Perhaps CoE would be the modern-day version, although Kern did have a real product almost ready - unlike Walsh.

    The story of FireFall is pretty sad and I'm sure many of Kern's collaborators from that era would have much juicier words for him. The fact that he now spends his time lecturing others about 'implementation' after the FireFall fiasco (or trying to hitch a ride on the Nostalrius train a few years back) shows that the man has no shame.



    GdemamiZegaloth
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,331
    I guess me and my 6 legged rogue vampire idea will continue in anonymity.
    tzervocheyaneachesomaRhoklawAlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,172
    Lol, that's rich, coming from Kern. Mark "Lets pretend WoW was my last game" Kern.
    ....yeah, because if you are successfull, it's not due your contribution, it's the team that made it happen but when you fail, it's 100% your fault.

    Besides, everyone knows that only failures count anyway...

    No idea why are people offended by my loling...
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,128
    edited May 24
    Gdemami said:
    Lol, that's rich, coming from Kern. Mark "Lets pretend WoW was my last game" Kern.
    ....yeah, because if you are successfull, it's not due your contribution, it's the team that made it happen but when you fail, it's 100% your fault.

    Besides, everyone knows that only failures count anyway...

    No idea why are people offended by my loling...
    Wasn't that's truth ? you only need 1 idiot to create a failed product , while require whole team do they work to create a good one .

    And if that idiot is head of the project , then 100% that is his fault .
    GdemamiAlBQuirky
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