Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If spells could be interrupted, and certain spells took longer to cast, then even a high level mage or priest might need to depend on a warrior to guard him or her while casting. Meanwhile, warriors and rogues would be more vulnerable to magical and divine/infernal attacks if they're on their own. Some types of enchanted or blessed weapons and armor might grant them greater resistance to non-physical attacks or effects, just as some races (such as dwarves) might be more resistant to magic, but aid from a wizard or priest would still be highly beneficial in many cases.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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The main problem of Horizontal progression is not the system, but the lack of feeling of progress.
For example, if on day 1, my character is strong enough to face and kill a dragon, and yet after playing for a year, my character is not any stronger then it was to start with, and that same dragon is the same fight it was on day one (perhaps easier due to my own skill as a player, but not do to any progress on my characters part), there is no feeling of progress, no feeling of accomplishment.
PvP games get away with it, because they work on the players skills, and thus seeking out equally skilled opponents, so the character does not need to progress as the player does all the work.
That self same system does not work as well in PvE games.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If spells could be interrupted, and certain spells took longer to cast, then even a high level mage or priest might need to depend on a warrior to guard him or her while casting. Meanwhile, warriors and rogues would be more vulnerable to magical and divine/infernal attacks if they're on their own. Some types of enchanted or blessed weapons and armor might grant them greater resistance to non-physical attacks or effects, just as some races (such as dwarves) might be more resistant to magic, but aid from a wizard or priest would still be highly beneficial in many cases.
Whilst I like the general idea, it really comes down to how the power differences really play out.
If the power differences are small enough that newbies can still be valuable, then I feel like you may as well just go full horizontal. If the power differences are bigger, then you have what we already have, maybe slightly less frustrating but still frustrating all the same.
That said, you've sparked an idea.
What if defensive stats were horizontal - all players had access to the same defences through gear, but offensive stats were vertical?
That way, all players could participate, contribute and survive, but newbies would output less damage so you'd need more of them. You could complete the same content as the vets, but it'd take you 5x longer.
The reason I suggest this is one of the problems with power gaps is how quickly newbies get stomped. It's such a negative experience and one of the main reasons that the pvp communities in mmos struggle to grow. However, if they could at least stay alive longer, it gives them a more positive experience, perhaps time to call in friends, but at least long enough to learn something from the fight.
You could liken it to anyone being able to buy armour and a sword in real life, or to wear a bullet proof vest, but it takes training and improvement to gain the strength / accuracy to actually deal out death.
I dunno, just an idea, I'd still prefer horizontal, but you got me thinking :P
If spells could be interrupted, and certain spells took longer to cast, then even a high level mage or priest might need to depend on a warrior to guard him or her while casting. Meanwhile, warriors and rogues would be more vulnerable to magical and divine/infernal attacks if they're on their own. Some types of enchanted or blessed weapons and armor might grant them greater resistance to non-physical attacks or effects, just as some races (such as dwarves) might be more resistant to magic, but aid from a wizard or priest would still be highly beneficial in many cases.
Whilst I like the general idea, it really comes down to how the power differences really play out.
If the power differences are small enough that newbies can still be valuable, then I feel like you may as well just go full horizontal. If the power differences are bigger, then you have what we already have, maybe slightly less frustrating but still frustrating all the same.
That said, you've sparked an idea.
What if defensive stats were horizontal - all players had access to the same defences through gear, but offensive stats were vertical?
That way, all players could participate, contribute and survive, but newbies would output less damage so you'd need more of them. You could complete the same content as the vets, but it'd take you 5x longer.
The reason I suggest this is one of the problems with power gaps is how quickly newbies get stomped. It's such a negative experience and one of the main reasons that the pvp communities in mmos struggle to grow. However, if they could at least stay alive longer, it gives them a more positive experience, perhaps time to call in friends, but at least long enough to learn something from the fight.
You could liken it to anyone being able to buy armour and a sword in real life, or to wear a bullet proof vest, but it takes training and improvement to gain the strength / accuracy to actually deal out death.
I dunno, just an idea, I'd still prefer horizontal, but you got me thinking :P
Well, for one thing, I don't think we really need to make a single Noob competitive with a Veteran. However, it would be good if a Noob had a chance against or could help a lower level character. While a lower level character had a chance against or could help a mid level character and a mid level character had a chance against or could help a high level character. But how do we make that possible?
Anyway, Hit Points are an abstraction. They don't really mean just how much damage a character can sustain before he or she dies (or is incapacitated/knocked out/placed on death's door). There are other factors involved.
Morale
Fortitude
Resolve/Determination
Chance
Divine Favor
And just how much Stress can a character endure before his or her levels/reserves of Morale, Fortitude, or Resolve are depleted? While having Hit Points divided into different categories could get too complex and cumbersome for P&P/Tabletop RPG, the automation made possible in an MMORPG would make them less so.
So, what if certain kinds of attacks, effects, situations, or encounters with different sorts of creatures/beings could weaken (or even strengthen) a character's Morale, Fortitude, or Resolve? Escalate or Alleviate Stress?
Remember how the Hound (in Game of Thrones) was so afraid of fire? Even though he was a great warrior, the mere sight of flame could cause him to hesitate or even flee. What would happen to a character like the Hound if a mage cast a Fireball at him? Particularly if he got hit by one?
So, what if, during character creation, players had to choose a certain amount of positive and negative characteristics? Like one character might be afraid of spiders but at the same time have an overwhelming hatred of orcs. So the character would have a lower chance of hitting giant spiders and a greater chance of hitting orcs. The character's Morale, even if the character was max level, might totally break if he or she was surrounded or covered by spiders.
Chance would always be a factor as well. A character might stumble on a rock, slip in mud, or have the sun glare in his or her eyes at just the wrong moment. And so the character would need to recover before he or she could attack again.
Divine Favor: A character's choices and actions could increase or decrease the amount of favor has with his/her chosen deity or deities. Depending on the amount of divine favor a character has, there could be a chance of that character being granted some kind of divine augmentation or divine intervention.
A good deity would probably favor such actions as helping the weak, though selfish choices might gain the deity's ire. An evil deity might favor a character who preyed on the weak or did whatever he or she could to harm the enemies of the deity. But that same evil deity might show disfavor toward a character who showed any sign of weakness, such as losing a battle.
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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When I consider horizontal progression, I think about systems like the following:
Everyone of a class gets skill A.
Skill A a has 3 modifiers to choose from. These are all relatively equal, but situational.
Choose one: Beatdown -> 1 second stun Beatdown -> +20% damage Beatdown -> 50% snare for 5 seconds
Stat systems can help keep things relatively horizontal as well. In something like WoW, your stats start at 10 and go into the 1000s (or whatever). In DDO (or Dungeons and Dragons in general), your stats remain relatively flat comparatively.
If you want something totally flat, you end up with something like counterstrike, where all stats are equal, and the horizontal progression is chosen through the weapon choices.
RPGs tend to love at least some vertical progression and I think that when people clamor for horizontal progression, they are really talking about a grey area where vertical progression is flatter, but it still exists.
You can now enter poison haze areas and pass through poisonous Mordrem vines without taking damage.
This skill unlocks areas in some maps. It does not affect your way of handling any other content. It does not let you do more damage to mobs, craft more efficiently or anything else. I call this horizontal progression.
In my previous imaginary example with skills vs levels:
- horizontal: skill B does not help you in any way clear content in map A faster. - vertical: level 40 helps you clear content in a level 20 map twice as fast.
The qualitative difference I see between horizontal and vertical is: horizontal adds options, gameplay loops, activities and careers etc. and does not affect the rest of your activities in any meaningful way. Vertical progression means you can do content that is already available faster or more efficiently. Existing game examples are vertical, horizontal or many times hybrid. It is not either/or, it is a slider.
Has that ability given you the ability to go where a player without it can? Have you "progressed" your maps?
The "sticky wicket", so to speak, is progress is usually assumed to be about combat, since that is what MMOs focus on. In that scenario, progression is easily defined. I can kill bigger mobs with better skills and abilities.
Yet exploration is also a progression, of sorts. Level locked zones, zones locked behind keys, your example of a "death zone" without the proper ability.
I liked EQ 1's language skills. They did nothing in the game in terms of combat or exploration or healing. They just were. Yet a player could still progress in that skill, getting better at a specific language or acquiring more languages. Since languages had no effect on gameplay, that is the closest I've seen to "horizontal progression", yet players still improved themselves.
Really, I guess it comes down to whatever a player is seeing as "progress"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I get the feeling most people associate vertical progression with combat power where IMO any improvement could be argued as vertical. Without improvement there is little incentive to do "stuff" for the vast majority.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You start with 100hp doing 10 damage to a 50hp mob and end with 10.000hp doing 1000 damage to a 5.000hp mob.
The only thing which changes is that you can kill low level mobs easily and brag before lowbies. But for the content you are doing, which is relevant for you nothing changed.
Yes horizontal progression has its limits. You cannot create infinite variants of a skill. But with different sets (see ESO) you can do this for a long time.
I get the feeling most people associate vertical progression with combat power where IMO any improvement could be argued as vertical. Without improvement there is little incentive to do "stuff" for the vast majority.
I agree. At the end of the day, horizontal progression often involves still becoming more powerful. If your stats don't increase, but your options do, then you're absolutely gaining more power.
Progression = power gain. No way around it, except if it's cosmetic progression (which honestly is a great thing that some MMO's suck at utilizing).
If people truly want the newbies to be equal in power to the veterans, there is only one solution: NO PROGRESSION. Everything available to the vets is available to the newbs.
Progression involves the game giving you something new after putting in time or an "investment" of some sort.
I get the feeling most people associate vertical progression with combat power where IMO any improvement could be argued as vertical. Without improvement there is little incentive to do "stuff" for the vast majority.
Whenever I'm talking about vertical / horizontal, I'm always refering to combat power exclusively.
I do agree that any form of progression outside of combat power can also be considered in terms of vertical / horizontal.
As to any improvement being considered vertical, I agree. That is why a horizontal system needs to take something away at the same time as giving you something, and thats how you maintain balance. Gain an AoE skill, lose a single target skill. Gain raw damage, lose crit chance. The things being taken away aren't being taken away permanently, it's just the player has to make the choice (e.g. by selecting which skills are on their toolbar, or what gear they're wearing).
I get the feeling most people associate vertical progression with combat power where IMO any improvement could be argued as vertical. Without improvement there is little incentive to do "stuff" for the vast majority.
Whenever I'm talking about vertical / horizontal, I'm always refering to combat power exclusively.
I do agree that any form of progression outside of combat power can also be considered in terms of vertical / horizontal.
As to any improvement being considered vertical, I agree. That is why a horizontal system needs to take something away at the same time as giving you something, and thats how you maintain balance. Gain an AoE skill, lose a single target skill. Gain raw damage, lose crit chance. The things being taken away aren't being taken away permanently, it's just the player has to make the choice (e.g. by selecting which skills are on their toolbar, or what gear they're wearing).
I'm a fan of a bonus/penalty system for sure regardless of the progression as it removes or mitigates best in slot scenarios.
Fallout 76 employs a variety of designs to help maintain the "illusion" of progression.
First, the character itself gains in actual power between level 1 and 54 meaning a "naked fight" (no gear) between the two is no contest however a level 54 has the same "power" as I do at level 261.
My guild held a "shovel" fight, nothing could be used except the "best" shovel a player could find or buy.
Despite having players ranging from 25 to 450, a level 79 won. While most of us play ranged gunners he was melee spec'd in his perks, but more importantly, he was well versed in the ways of PVP, which few are.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Perk card selection is the second progression system with players being permitted to pick one after each level gain until they reach 56 as I recall)
Not only do they give increasing combat bonuses (capped at 9 pts per category, ie. Heavy guns, Rifles etc.) the player must choose from a plethora of secondary skills which must be carefully balanced, especially in the early leveling remaining a relevant consideration well into the mid 100s, never truly ending as even just today at level 262 I was rebalancing my cards.
From 2 to 56 each card chosen also selects a corresponding attribute. Being a heavy gunner, my build goes like this, 15 strength, (the cap for any single attribute) 6 perception, 5 endurance, 6 charisma, 10 intelligence, 6 agility, and 8 luck.
Oh yes, after level 56 players are given a choice of reassigning one attribute point, in case they make a tragic mistake like my friend did in getting 15 points in Charisma, since having to spend 12 points to bring it back down to 3.
Finally, Perk cards have levels from rank 1 to 3 for most, but there are a smattering of skills limited to only 1 or 2 ranks as well as a few rank 4s and 5s.
This gives the player tremendous flexibility on how to build their characters as well as having to manage which skills to slot based on situation, combat, crafting, harvesting, hacking etc.
This is also a huge weakness as so far Bethesda hasn't included a perk card load out manager though there are Fallout 4 mods which can be used for those willing to risk their account, of which I am not one such.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Perk card selection is the second progression system with players being permitted to pick one after each level up.
Have you played Darkest Dungeon?
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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There is absolutely horizontal progression. But people dont tend to recognize it because it involves making a choice. But witht he complete laziness of developers now every choice is blogged and written aboit so ypu can have the most optimized 'build'.
But horizontal progression is sort of portrayed in ESO. Sort of because theyre as lazy as it comes. But basially you go backwards in that game you get weaker in general by comparison to enemies but you unlock more skills and can get better armor (that is sort of vertical) but only because those set which are available at every level gap are 'best' at max level. But the skills are limited you can learn them all but you can only choose 6 to use (12 if you use different ones on your swap bars)
But again because its 'lazy' you max out your 'horizontal' progression there faster than your vertical.
Life is Feudal is probably the best example ut it is also the poster child for people who hate 'grinding'. But that is the bane of any game progression in some way shape or form is the reason why you play games inthe first place.
Vertical progression is one of the fundamental pillars of the RPG genre, while you will find horizontal progression to be the staple of the FPS genre.
To have an RPG with no vertical progression? That's like trying to build an airplane out of stone. Sure you can certainly do that, but what would be the point? It won't function as intended.
You make a point.
That's why I prefer Limited Vertical Combat Power Progression with the possibility of Vertical Progression in other forms of power besides combat power. I also think regression should be possible as well. Because, in real life, it is possible to regress as well as progress.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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Perk card selection is the second progression system with players being permitted to pick one after each level up.
Have you played Darkest Dungeon?
No, haven't had the opportunity.
Is that the game where you control a party of characters, however they can act and react based on their selected attributes?
If so, I passed as I'm too much of a control freak to have characters which run away, cower in fear or whatever.
Just encourages me to quit and reload endlessly until I get through a fight where such negative actions either never occur or have minimal impact on the outcome.
In games like XCOM? No character of mine ever permanently died in one, in fact most scenarios were redone until I achieved a near flawless and total victory over the enemy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Perk card selection is the second progression system with players being permitted to pick one after each level up.
Have you played Darkest Dungeon?
No, haven't had the opportunity.
Is that the game where you control a party of characters, however they can act and react based on their selected attributes?
If so, I passed as I'm too much of a control freak to have characters which run away, cower in fear or whatever.
Just encourages me to quit and reload endlessly until I get through a fight where such negative actions either never occur or have minimal impact on the outcome.
In games like XCOM? No character of mine ever permanently died in one, in fact most scenarios were redone until I achieved a near flawless and total victory over the enemy.
Well, the cool thing about Darkest Dungeon is that is autosaves constantly. You can't reload from a previous save. Either you deal with what happened or start over from the beginning.
"A core element of Darkest Dungeon is its Affliction system, a concept of a hero's stress level or resolve. Though a hero will have little stress when they are hired, it will worsen from a number of factors encountered while in a dungeon, such as adventuring without food or light sources, seeing the death or wounding of a fellow party member in battle, or from blights cast on them by enemies. If the hero's high stress remains unchecked, they may develop afflictions that will interfere with the behavior of the character, such as being frightened and unable to fight directly. Less frequently, a stressed character may develop virtues that enhance their attributes, such as becoming more invigorated within battle. Some afflictions, left unchecked, may become permanent quirks that remain on the character. Other afflictions can be removed back in the village and by performing special activities, such as drinking at a bar or repenting at a church, that occupy the character's time, preventing them from being part of a dungeon party. Allowing a hero to reach an extremely high stress level can cause them to have a heart attack, bringing them to the brink of death if not immediately tended to. Stress can be lowered while in a dungeon through camping offered at specific locations, or other restorative items, as well as when back in the nearby town. While camping, the characters will have another set of available skills that can be used to help relieve stress and help with other party members."
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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It changes by designing a better game.No it won't change in the Wow clones because those are terrible designs.
So an example?
1 Abilities,you learn more to control the combat ,turn it in your favor 2 player to player combos instead of lame solo combos. 3 resistances,this is a huge one that a few do it ..ok,but nobody does it really well.This means weapon types,elemental types as well perhaps light n dark types. 4 Ai is still a major factor and these scripted AI can be done a LOT better than what we are used to.
SO an example of Ai,well there is obviously only two methods,definitive scripts and rng scripts.Definitive means at set intervals the npc will react but it doesn't have to be ONE reaction there can be a pool of reactions,so that nothing is predictable.
RNG scripts are ones where the npc might do anything at any given moment,so the NPC might be easier or tougher depending on the rng.
Then there is scripts that can MORPH the npc.This means the npc's predictability is no longer predictable ..at all.The NPC might morph into partial or 100% FIRE resistance or maybe partial or 100% slashing resistance or magic resistance etc etc.If it is a Dragon it might go through phases,one phase on the ground ,another phase in the AIR.
The current designs CONTROL your combat,it is very easy for a developer to look at the numbers and simply create NPC's that counter those numbers.There is a downside to a better design and devs are imo TOO LAZY to work with it and that is when people min/max abilities.
So for example a group of all mages to nuke while another kites.Or all nukes to obliterate the npc fast.OR STUNS,just fill your group with 10 stuns and the npc can never move or react.There is a way around EVERY single flaw but as i stated,devs are TOO LAZY.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It changes by designing a better game.No it won't change in the Wow clones because those are terrible designs.
So an example?
1 Abilities,you learn more to control the combat ,turn it in your favor 2 player to player combos instead of lame solo combos. 3 resistances,this is a huge one that a few do it ..ok,but nobody does it really well.This means weapon types,elemental types as well perhaps light n dark types. 4 Ai is still a major factor and these scripted AI can be done a LOT better than what we are used to.
SO an example of Ai,well there is obviously only two methods,definitive scripts and rng scripts.Definitive means at set intervals the npc will react but it doesn't have to be ONE reaction there can be a pool of reactions,so that nothing is predictable.
RNG scripts are ones where the npc might do anything at any given moment,so the NPC might be easier or tougher depending on the rng.
Then there is scripts that can MORPH the npc.This means the npc's predictability is no longer predictable ..at all.The NPC might morph into partial or 100% FIRE resistance or maybe partial or 100% slashing resistance or magic resistance etc etc.If it is a Dragon it might go through phases,one phase on the ground ,another phase in the AIR.
The current designs CONTROL your combat,it is very easy for a developer to look at the numbers and simply create NPC's that counter those numbers.There is a downside to a better design and devs are imo TOO LAZY to work with it and that is when people min/max abilities.
So for example a group of all mages to nuke while another kites.Or all nukes to obliterate the npc fast.OR STUNS,just fill your group with 10 stuns and the npc can never move or react.There is a way around EVERY single flaw but as i stated,devs are TOO LAZY.
Like dungeon bosses in Neverwinter that are inexplicably immune to all sorts of crowd control-type abilities.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
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ESO clearly has several forms of progression, eschewing just one of many possible designs.
What ESO has is several different vertical systems not tied to character levels and much smaller power gaps than other MMOs, A lot of that thanks to the full level scaling from level 1 to level 50 CP 160.
I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW
But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.
It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.
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"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For example, if on day 1, my character is strong enough to face and kill a dragon, and yet after playing for a year, my character is not any stronger then it was to start with, and that same dragon is the same fight it was on day one (perhaps easier due to my own skill as a player, but not do to any progress on my characters part), there is no feeling of progress, no feeling of accomplishment.
PvP games get away with it, because they work on the players skills, and thus seeking out equally skilled opponents, so the character does not need to progress as the player does all the work.
That self same system does not work as well in PvE games.
And just how much Stress can a character endure before his or her levels/reserves of Morale, Fortitude, or Resolve are depleted? While having Hit Points divided into different categories could get too complex and cumbersome for P&P/Tabletop RPG, the automation made possible in an MMORPG would make them less so.
Everyone of a class gets skill A.
Skill A a has 3 modifiers to choose from. These are all relatively equal, but situational.
Choose one:
Beatdown -> 1 second stun
Beatdown -> +20% damage
Beatdown -> 50% snare for 5 seconds
Stat systems can help keep things relatively horizontal as well. In something like WoW, your stats start at 10 and go into the 1000s (or whatever). In DDO (or Dungeons and Dragons in general), your stats remain relatively flat comparatively.
If you want something totally flat, you end up with something like counterstrike, where all stats are equal, and the horizontal progression is chosen through the weapon choices.
RPGs tend to love at least some vertical progression and I think that when people clamor for horizontal progression, they are really talking about a grey area where vertical progression is flatter, but it still exists.
pre-champion system still all in all even with
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You start with 100hp doing 10 damage to a 50hp mob and end with 10.000hp doing 1000 damage to a 5.000hp mob.
The only thing which changes is that you can kill low level mobs easily and brag before lowbies.
But for the content you are doing, which is relevant for you nothing changed.
Yes horizontal progression has its limits. You cannot create infinite variants of a skill.
But with different sets (see ESO) you can do this for a long time.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
Progression = power gain. No way around it, except if it's cosmetic progression (which honestly is a great thing that some MMO's suck at utilizing).
If people truly want the newbies to be equal in power to the veterans, there is only one solution: NO PROGRESSION. Everything available to the vets is available to the newbs.
Progression involves the game giving you something new after putting in time or an "investment" of some sort.
Mend and Defend
First, the character itself gains in actual power between level 1 and 54 meaning a "naked fight" (no gear) between the two is no contest however a level 54 has the same "power" as I do at level 261.
My guild held a "shovel" fight, nothing could be used except the "best" shovel a player could find or buy.
Despite having players ranging from 25 to 450, a level 79 won. While most of us play ranged gunners he was melee spec'd in his perks, but more importantly, he was well versed in the ways of PVP, which few are.)
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"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Not only do they give increasing combat bonuses (capped at 9 pts per category, ie. Heavy guns, Rifles etc.) the player must choose from a plethora of secondary skills which must be carefully balanced, especially in the early leveling remaining a relevant consideration well into the mid 100s, never truly ending as even just today at level 262 I was rebalancing my cards.
From 2 to 56 each card chosen also selects a corresponding attribute.
Being a heavy gunner, my build goes like this, 15 strength, (the cap for any single attribute) 6 perception, 5 endurance, 6 charisma, 10 intelligence, 6 agility, and 8 luck.
Oh yes, after level 56 players are given a choice of reassigning one attribute point, in case they make a tragic mistake like my friend did in getting 15 points in Charisma, since having to spend 12 points to bring it back down to 3.
Finally, Perk cards have levels from rank 1 to 3 for most, but there are a smattering of skills limited to only 1 or 2 ranks as well as a few rank 4s and 5s.
This gives the player tremendous flexibility on how to build their characters as well as having to manage which skills to slot based on situation, combat, crafting, harvesting, hacking etc.
This is also a huge weakness as so far Bethesda hasn't included a perk card load out manager though there are Fallout 4 mods which can be used for those willing to risk their account, of which I am not one such.
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"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Have you played Darkest Dungeon?
But horizontal progression is sort of portrayed in ESO. Sort of because theyre as lazy as it comes. But basially you go backwards in that game you get weaker in general by comparison to enemies but you unlock more skills and can get better armor (that is sort of vertical) but only because those set which are available at every level gap are 'best' at max level. But the skills are limited you can learn them all but you can only choose 6 to use (12 if you use different ones on your swap bars)
But again because its 'lazy' you max out your 'horizontal' progression there faster than your vertical.
Life is Feudal is probably the best example ut it is also the poster child for people who hate 'grinding'. But that is the bane of any game progression in some way shape or form is the reason why you play games inthe first place.
Is that the game where you control a party of characters, however they can act and react based on their selected attributes?
If so, I passed as I'm too much of a control freak to have characters which run away, cower in fear or whatever.
Just encourages me to quit and reload endlessly until I get through a fight where such negative actions either never occur or have minimal impact on the outcome.
In games like XCOM? No character of mine ever permanently died in one, in fact most scenarios were redone until I achieved a near flawless and total victory over the enemy.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So an example?
1 Abilities,you learn more to control the combat ,turn it in your favor
2 player to player combos instead of lame solo combos.
3 resistances,this is a huge one that a few do it ..ok,but nobody does it really well.This means weapon types,elemental types as well perhaps light n dark types.
4 Ai is still a major factor and these scripted AI can be done a LOT better than what we are used to.
SO an example of Ai,well there is obviously only two methods,definitive scripts and rng scripts.Definitive means at set intervals the npc will react but it doesn't have to be ONE reaction there can be a pool of reactions,so that nothing is predictable.
RNG scripts are ones where the npc might do anything at any given moment,so the NPC might be easier or tougher depending on the rng.
Then there is scripts that can MORPH the npc.This means the npc's predictability is no longer predictable ..at all.The NPC might morph into partial or 100% FIRE resistance or maybe partial or 100% slashing resistance or magic resistance etc etc.If it is a Dragon it might go through phases,one phase on the ground ,another phase in the AIR.
The current designs CONTROL your combat,it is very easy for a developer to look at the numbers and simply create NPC's that counter those numbers.There is a downside to a better design and devs are imo TOO LAZY to work with it and that is when people min/max abilities.
So for example a group of all mages to nuke while another kites.Or all nukes to obliterate the npc fast.OR STUNS,just fill your group with 10 stuns and the npc can never move or react.There is a way around EVERY single flaw but as i stated,devs are TOO LAZY.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Like dungeon bosses in Neverwinter that are inexplicably immune to all sorts of crowd control-type abilities.
I like the system but many hate it because they're not progressing fast enough for their taste. Probably the WOW refugees who still miss WOW
But everything related to combat power is still vertical even if the vertical axis is smaller and progression is more subtle. Leveling the Undaunted skill line by running more dungeons is vertical with the better skills you get from it at the higher tiers of the skill line. Leveling the 2 PvP skill lines independent of character level is the same and so is every guild skill line, weapon and armor lines, etc.
It's a system that gives you more choices about what you can level and how you level those things but it's still very much vertical.
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