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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    edited May 23
    I picked numbers for a straightforward example, but I already took what you say into account

    Ungood said:

    The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    That means, regardless of how many people killed Naggy, if the cloak showed up, only 1 of them would get it. Ideally, this means the more people that kill Naggy, the less chance you have of being the person that gets the cloak to start with, and thus the idea of DKP to earn the right to loot the cloak, IF it drops.

    In that venture you do not have a 2.7% chance to get the cloak, the cloak has a 27% chance to exist in the chest, and your chances of getting it are a totally different factor.
    No clearing up needed here, I already took this into account :) I picked 10 people here as an example, if you want to generalize it, then the chance to get the Cloak is Pcloak=0.27/(nplayers) (my example was 10).

    there is no reason for 'the mob' to be a one hour timer, as with RNG systems like that, it's a tier of mob all of which can drop this loot. IE: All Elder Wurms drop Artifact or Better.
    As such the only delay in killing is the speed by which a player can kill them to keep rolling for the loot they are looking for, ergo some players will be able to kill them faster, if they work in teams, they will be able to augment this number exponentially. 
    Also taken into account, that is the number of rolls (n). If you assume the mobs are abundant, you just divide 7 days by the time to clear a single mob and you get the number of rolls for the artifact gear.

    So now instead of the numbers I gave you just compare:

    Pcloak=0.27/(nplayers)

    with

    Partifact=1

    or

    Partifact_with_particular_stats=P(1)=(n 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^(n-1)

    You give me the n and nplayers and I will tell you if the cloak or the artifact with particular stats is rarer. Disregarding particular stats, the criterion changes. Artifact gear is always more common than the cloak. They are two different questions:

    1) is the cloak rarer than the artifact gear? Yes, Partifact > Pcloak
    2) is the cloak rare than the artifact gear with those stats? Depends on n and nplayers.

    But you talk about personal value, this is not to be confused with the direct rarity of an item.


    What I understand here is you try to ask: is (1) or (2) the most meaningful question? (personal or market value). Answer: depends on the game. The examples are not complete enough. You people are insulting one another over different premises.
    cheyaneAlBQuirky
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,236
    tzervo said:


    What I understand here is you try to ask: is (1) or (2) the most meaningful question? (personal or market value). Answer: depends on the game. The examples are not complete enough. You people are insulting one another over different premises.
    I agree with you on this two different games with different systems and the concept of rare in each cannot be compared equally.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    edited May 23
    cheyane said:
    tzervo said:


    What I understand here is you try to ask: is (1) or (2) the most meaningful question? (personal or market value). Answer: depends on the game. The examples are not complete enough. You people are insulting one another over different premises.
    I agree with you on this two different games with different systems and the concept of rare in each cannot be compared equally.
    Rare can be framed very accurately, even between games. The problem is that lots of the examples above conflate rarity with value.

    Value will tell me which question is more relevant/meaningful:

    1) is cloak rarer than artifact?
    2) or is cloak rarer than that artifact with these stats

    Once I decide on that, the rarity is very well defined. I cannot determine rarity of something if I cannot decide what that something is. But determining/comparing value between games smells like flame wars :)
    Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    tzervo said:
    I picked numbers for a straightforward example, but I already took what you say into account

    Ungood said:

    The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    That means, regardless of how many people killed Naggy, if the cloak showed up, only 1 of them would get it. Ideally, this means the more people that kill Naggy, the less chance you have of being the person that gets the cloak to start with, and thus the idea of DKP to earn the right to loot the cloak, IF it drops.

    In that venture you do not have a 2.7% chance to get the cloak, the cloak has a 27% chance to exist in the chest, and your chances of getting it are a totally different factor.
    No clearing up needed here, I already took this into account :) I picked 10 people here as an example, if you want to generalize it, then the chance to get the Cloak is Pcloak=0.27/(nplayers) (my example was 10).

    there is no reason for 'the mob' to be a one hour timer, as with RNG systems like that, it's a tier of mob all of which can drop this loot. IE: All Elder Wurms drop Artifact or Better.
    As such the only delay in killing is the speed by which a player can kill them to keep rolling for the loot they are looking for, ergo some players will be able to kill them faster, if they work in teams, they will be able to augment this number exponentially. 
    Also taken into account, that is the number of rolls (n). If you assume the mobs are abundant, you just divide 7 days by the time to clear a single mob and you get the number of rolls for the artifact gear.

    So now instead of the numbers I gave you just compare:

    Pcloak=0.27/(nplayers)

    with

    Partifact=1

    or

    Partifact_with_particular_stats=P(1)=(n 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^(n-1)

    You give me the n and nplayers and I will tell you if the cloak or the artifact with particular stats is rarer. Disregarding particular stats, the criterion changes. Artifact gear is always more common than the cloak. They are two different questions:

    1) is the cloak rarer than the artifact gear? Yes, Partifact > Pcloak
    2) is the cloak rare than the artifact gear with those stats? Depends on n and nplayers.

    But you talk about personal value, this is not to be confused with the direct rarity of an item.


    What I understand here is you try to ask: is (1) or (2) the most meaningful question? (personal or market value). Answer: depends on the game. The examples are not complete enough. You people are insulting one another over different premises.
    Just to clear up a point.

    I see this is partly my fault, Perhaps I did not explain things well, or maybe it's just been too much blathering, and it got lost in the many previous posts, but, while your math is spot on, you are not taking into account the rarity to be one of the 10 people to kill Nagafen that week.

    I wager that is my fault for not saying that again when I opted to correct your point, In your example, you are functioning from a premise that anyone can just go kill Nagafen, perhaps like some instance based, and any group of 10 people could go and kill the Raid Boss every week at reset.

    My apologies, allow me to explain, that was not the case in EQ, Nagafen is a single spawn mob for the whole server.

    I want to clarify that, and say this again, Only `1 Cloak of Flames will drop roughly once every 3 weeks, across the entire server of thousands of players. 

    Ergo, just to be in the group that gets to kill Nagafen is highly coveted and rare position to be in, so your premise starts off with the player already winning a lottery of sorts, just being one among one of the 10 people that gets to Kill Nagafen.

    So, to help work your math a little better, just because you seem to enjoy the numbers. EQ had 500K subs across 20 servers, so now, What are my chances to get a Cloak of Flames?

    To be nice, I am going remove the competitiveness of hardcore raid guilds in EQ, which still exist, and pretty much if you were not in one, you were not going to be Dragon Hunting, so realistically your chances to get a Cloak of Flames start with, joining the Raid Guild, Proving your Worth, Earning your DKP, and then.. MAYBE.. getting the chance to loot the Cloak of Flames. Given across the 20 year history of your whole Server, only 300 of these items will have existed, I wager it's going to be a lot less than your projected.

    But I would love to see the numbers if you feel like running them.

    Whereas in UO, you are spot on that you can just go out and kill random mobs and pray to RNGesus that you get the combo you want, with no limit on how many times you can roll that dice or how many of said item can exist, so in that regard, I wager your numbers are spot on.




    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    edited May 23
    One thing I noticed, my wording is wrong here as well. And if I understand correctly, this is what @Gdemami and @Ungood  were referring to?
    Gdemami said:
    rarity isn't an attribute of demand, it is an attribute of supply.
    Ungood said:
    The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    What I described here was a change for a player to get the cloak, or an artifact, or an artifact of particular stats. Not the rarity of the item itself.

    So for the cloak, the chance for a single item to drop is:

    Pcloak=0.27

    number of players hacking Naglaguy don't come in here, only the chance for the item to drop.

    The number of attempts for the artifact with particular stats is:

    n = (nplayers hacking the mob * 7 weeks / time to kill mob)

    So the chance for an item to drop in game (controls rarity) is:

    Pcloak=0.27

    Partifact=1

    Partifact_with_particular_stats=P(1)=(n 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^(n-1)

    The rest should be correct.You still need to decide whether you compare with (artifact) or (artifact with stats).
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    I mean, it's built off a wrong premise
    ...yeah, and that premise is yours.

    Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).

    Ungood said:
    That is how RNG works.

    The results we didn't want are not any more or less rare then the results we do want
    ....oh dear.

    That is not how RNG works.

    There is 19 posibble results(19:1) you get something you do not want vs 1 possibility(1:20) of something you want.

    Yeah, the chance you get what you want is much lower than a chance you get what you don't want.

    Do you understand your second addition, you are putting the Rarity of an Item upon its Demand, not its Supply.

    In short you just contradicted yourself in your own post, while telling me I am wrong.

    Well at least you did have one good post, so kudos for that.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    tzervo said:
    One thing I noticed, my wording is wrong here as well. And if I understand correctly, this is what @Gdemami and @Ungood  were referring to?
    Gdemami said:
    rarity isn't an attribute of demand, it is an attribute of supply.
    Ungood said:
    The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    What I described here was a change for a player to get the cloak, or an artifact, or an artifact of particular stats. Not the rarity of the item itself.

    So for the cloak, the chance for a single item to drop is:

    Pcloak=0.27

    number of players hacking Naglaguy don't come in here, only the chance for the item to drop.

    The number of attempts for the artifact with particular stats is:

    n = (nplayers hacking the mob * 7 weeks / time to kill mob)

    So the chance for an item to drop in game (controls rarity) is:

    Pcloak=0.27

    Partifact=1

    Partifact_with_particular_stats=P(1)=(n 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^(n-1)

    The rest should be correct.You still need to decide whether you compare with (artifact) or (artifact with stats).
    This is a core point.

    My point is Rarity is an Aspect of Supply. Ergo, all Artifact Items of the same budget have the same chance to exist, regardless of what was generated. IE: All of them had the same chance to be what they are, regardless if that was what you wanted or not.

    It seems my colleagues cannot figure out if they are applying Rarity to Supply or Demand. In case of poor Gdemami , he contradicts himself in his own post, regarding what he thinks validates rarity. 
    Gdemamibcbully
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    edited May 23
    Ungood said:
    you are putting the Rarity of an Item upon its Demand, not its Supply.
    No, I am not.
    Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    I mean, it's built off a wrong premise
    ...yeah, and that premise is yours.

    Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).

    Ungood said:
    That is how RNG works.

    The results we didn't want are not any more or less rare then the results we do want
    ....oh dear.

    That is not how RNG works.

    There is 19 posibble results(19:1) you get something you do not want vs 1 possibility(1:20) of something you want.

    Yeah, the chance you get what you want is much lower than a chance you get what you don't want.

    Wait.

    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    you are putting the Rarity of an Item upon its Demand, not its Supply.
    No, I am not.
    Ok.. Alright.. maybe this is a rare chance for me to figure out how you think, just for future sight into some of your posts.

    So, in your example above, what do you think "Want" is, Supply or Demand?
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,236
    I also think Bind on Pickup makes things that drop only equipped and not sold making the acquisition even more difficult does it not factor into the equation ?
    AlBQuirky
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    edited May 23
    cheyane said:
    I also think Bind on Pickup makes things that drop only equipped and not sold making the acquisition even more difficult does it not factor into the equation ?
    Not if you inspect rarity (the equations above), which should depend only on how often the item ends up in game.

    Yes if you want to see acquisition, what your chance is of getting the fuggin thing. Then it is a matter of "show me the money", not chance or rarity :blush:
    AlBQuirky
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    edited May 23
    Ungood said:
    So, in your example above, what do you think "Want" is, Supply or Demand?
    ...you are lost.

    We are talking about rarity - uneven numerical stat distribution of an item, you are talking about a system with unified numerical stat distribution, a system where concept of rarity isn't applicapable and try to argue from that point.
    Ungood
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,236
    edited May 23
    tzervo said:
    cheyane said:
    I also think Bind on Pickup makes things that drop only equipped and not sold making the acquisition even more difficult does it not factor into the equation ?
    Not if you inspect rarity (the equations above), which should depend only on how often the item ends up in game.

    Yes if you want to see acquisition, what your chance is of getting the fuggin thing. Then it is a matter of "show me the money", not chance or rarity :blush:

    That is not empirical. Nothing is in isolation. I understand the concept and pure definition of rare but if you're comparing two games Everquest and UO that isn't the only consideration. 

    What makes obtaining an item difficult isn't just a mathematical consideration. It should take into consideration that you might need a whole raid and a combination of classes to obtain something. That certain mobs only spawn once in a whole day at times and even then their drop rate will perhaps result in it not dropping at all. 

    Plus unfortunately there has been an attempt to show 'my game is better than yours' here and I might initially too have been guilty of that until @Scorchien explained how UO loot worked.


    In the end I realised that loot in UO based on the loot table is indeed if you just take into account the way the item is unique is indeed rarer in UO but if you take into consideration that you have to belong to a guild capable of breaking into a Plane in Everquest then that might make the loot in Everquest while less rare harder to obtain for the average player.

    While @Scorchien said that he never felt the sting of the death penalty in Everquest as much as he did in UO at the end of the day it is up to the individual player and their own attachment to the items they obtained that makes the death penalty sting. If as a player you feel that the items loss is really hard to bear then the death penalty has an impact on you.

    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    edited May 23
    cheyane said:
    That is not empirical. Nothing is in isolation. I understand the concept and pure definition of rare but if you're comparing two games Everquest and UO that isn't the only consideration. 

    What makes obtaining an item difficult isn't just a mathematical consideration. It should take into consideration that you might need a whole raid and a combination of classes to obtain something. That certain mobs only spawn once in a whole day at times and even then their drop rate will perhaps result in it not dropping at all. 

    Plus unfortunately there has been an attempt to show 'my game is better than yours' here and I might initially too have been guilty of that until @Scorchien explained how UO loot worked.
    I did take into account that Nagla spawns only once per week on the whole server (single roll, full stop) and the drop rate of the cloak. The rest that you mention do not affect the rarity of the item (my last math take) but can affect the chance of someone getting the cloak. If it is bind on pickup, the chance of someone getting the item is as per my first math example. Otherwise, it is irrelevant and that chance becomes the chance to get an amount of gold equal to the value of the item - or keeping the item if you want.

    I hope this makes more sense. I tried to frame the problem as accurately as I could. To do that you need simplifications. I am not sure if I missed any details because I was not going for particular games (Everquest, UO), I just tried to isolate the two examples from the posts above (which was actualy hard, I did as best as I could) and have some fun with them (the examples, not the posters). I haven't played either EQ or UO, I've heard that both are/were great games and I am fine with that.
    AlBQuirky
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,236
    edited May 23
    The point is this argument went off in a tangent and truly has little to do with why the death penalty in Everquest was effective. Which was what I originally posted. Then @Scorchien in my opinion mocked it (again my perception) that it was nothing because in UO other players can take your stuff since it was a PvP game and you had like 7 minutes to get it back. So naturally in his opinion Everquest death penalty was less painful.

    Then I went on to explain how I had spent literally months collecting what I had. Then he talked about unique loot in UO that once lost is lost for good.

    I guess this was how the question on what is unique and rare became a topic of discussion.

    However like I pointed out making these mathematical arguments isn't actually what makes the death penalty  effective, it is how each individual player accesses their loss that makes it so. I might argue further that since @Scorchien is relatively certain when he dies he will lose those items, it also places less expectation that he will get it back making the death penalty less painful than what I went through knowing I had 24 hours to get it back as I expected to be able to get it back and not succeeding to get it back would have destroyed me.

    What this taught me above all else is that you cannot in all honesty compare UO and Everquest death penalties because there are some fundamental differences.
    Ungood
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    edited May 23
    cheyane said:
    The point is this argument went off in a tangent and truly has little to do with why the death penalty in Everquest was effective. Which was what I originally posted. Then @Scorchien in my opinion mocked it (again my perception) that it was nothing because in UO other players can take your stuff since it was a PvP game and you had like 7 minutes to get it back. So naturally in his opinion Everquest death penalty was less painful.

    Then I went on to explain how I had spent literally months collecting what I had. Then he talked about unique loot in UO that once lost is lost for good.

    I guess this was how the question on what is unique and rare became a topic of discussion.

    However like I pointed out making these mathematical arguments isn't actually what makes the death penalty  effective, it is how each individual player accesses their loss that makes it so. I might argue further that since @Scorchien is relatively certain when he dies he will lose those items it also places less expectation that he will get it back making the death penalty less painful then what I went through knowing I had 24 hours to get it back as I expected to be able to get it back and not succeeding to get it back would have destroyed me.

    What this taught above all else is that you cannot in all honesty compare UO and Everquest death penalty because there are some fundamental differences.
    Oh the math on rarity was totally off-topic and I shamelessly admitted that already. No regrets, it was fun xD Hopefully it might also have been useful to someone.

    On death penalty you have two effects:

    - is the item destroyed on death? Affects rarity and "possesion" of the item.
    - do I lose the item on death? (I.e another player can kill me and steal it) Affects only your "possessing" the item

    Not sure if you can compare UO and EQ meaningfully. At this point I would have to go through the whole discussion and get all the details, and risk getting into the war. Watching the insults was kinda fun, like being in the middle of a food fight without caring!! Getting into it, not so much :P
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,260
    edited May 23
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.

    Almost like he has no awareness whatsoever of variable rate RNG. In D3 the chance of a random legendary drop to be of the better ancient variety is 1 in 10 and the chance for it to be the best version, a Primal, is 1 in 400 which makes Primals very rare.

    RNG + rarity.... pretty simple concept really.

    Still just RNG, a game of numbers, nothing like the concept of a rare item in a game like EQ.

    In EQ, there was a set number of an item due to time and drop constraints, for example, A Cloak of Flames originally only dropped from Lord Nagafen, Spawned roughly once a week, with a 27% chance to drop the cloak. In a year, only 15 of those cloaks would ever exist on the server, out of thousands of players, only 15 would ever exist. Keeping to that, that would mean in that in the entire life of the Server, over 20 years, only 300 would ever happen, among hundreds of thousands of players, 300 would ever exist.

    That's rarity, in the sense there is an absolute limited number of them. RNG games do not have rarity in that sense on any level.

    RNG is still just a numbers games, keep farming and grinding, you will eventually get what you want, eventually everyone can get what they want. Just like the basic idea that if you buy enough tickets you will win the lottery. That is how RNG works.

    Equally so, the more these items get framed, the more they flood the system, the less rare all these items ultimately become, that is also how RNG works.

    That is not rarity, that is just a numbers game, often a means to build tedious grind without building any kind of real sense of uniqueness to the game.

    But no doubt, I am sure this won't sit well with you, I shall await your mindless insults.
    Limited quantity is not a requirement for something to be rare.

    All you need is variable rate: sword X has a 1 in 3 chance of dropping from boss z while sword y has a 1 in 300 chance to drop from the same boss.

    The mechanics that determine the drop is rolling a number randomly which determines whether you get sword x or sword y or something else or nothing at all. That is all that RNG means.

    No matter how many 100s of thousands of players farm the boss or how many 100s of sword y exist in the game. It would still be more rare than sword X.
    Did you just try to say that there could be an unlimited availability of an item and it would still be rare? WOW.. no.. really.. wow, that was some serious funny. 

    Thanks for the laugh, the opening line killed me, really. I mean, yah, you open with the idea that we can have an infinite number of these things in the game.. But it's rare yo! 

    .... LOL.

    ya know what.. You fucking win.. I cannot get down to that level of stupid to fight you.. so.. You just win man! 
    Yes you hysterical little bitch, rare does not mean "one of" or "only 7 in the world" it's just a comparison and has a range from barely rare to ultra rare.

    Try opening a fucking dictionary.

    Does Merriam-Webster count?

    Definition of rare

     (Entry 1 of 2)

    1 : seldom occurring or found : uncommon
    2a : marked by unusual quality, merit, or appeal : distinctive
    b : superlative or extreme of its kind
    3 : marked by wide separation of component particles : thin rare air
    rarer; rarest

    Definition of rare (Entry 2 of 2)

    : cooked so that the inside is still red rare roast beef


    GdemamitzervocheyaneUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • tzervotzervo Member RarePosts: 521
    AlBQuirky said:

    Does Merriam-Webster count?

    Definition of rare

     (Entry 1 of 2)

    ...

    Definition of rare (Entry 2 of 2)
    : cooked so that the inside is still red rare roast beef

    Oh man this made me laugh so hard! Thanks for that!!
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,260
    cheyane said:
    <snip>

    What this taught me above all else is that you cannot in all honesty compare UO and Everquest death penalties because there are some fundamental differences.

    Isn't that why we compare, though? Each player has their preferences and in each individual mind is a "better/worse" scenario :)
    cheyaneUngood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,371
    edited May 23


      Try this for those not understanding it again .. Look it over

        Im gonna start with get Unique out of you RNG head its useless to consider , every turd is Unique you are not saving any of those .. I Hope

           Most all of the loot in UO at endgame is trash , in the past 3 months ive gotten 2 items worth saving ..For alts  Nothing really great just useful ..
     I will add here i did did get a really nic LA Double Axe that had no use for 8 months ago that i was able to trade to a guildy for  a Nice Bow for my PvPer (Nox Archer).. That was nice

       Nothing  for main .. And i have 2 mains ..

      Its a very difficult process ..

      If you read the Loot Table you will begin to understand ..

       To keep it simple lets assume you are a Sword 7xGM

     First you need sword to drop   .. X your fingers , now the fun starts

        You are hoping to get a Legendary Artifact , that is a Dragon Slayer ..

     So when you mange to kill a high enough mob that can drop an LA , First you need that to happen Chances are not great for LA to begin( seems to be about 1 in 35 -50) with High Luck and hunting in Fel increase the chances  ( also increases the chances of Reds)

      The very best LA will have 7 properties and clean .. No DIsadvantage ( EXTREMELY RARE)
     
     But lets move on if you are fortuante enough a LA drops  in this scenario you are certainly want a

      Prefix of Mighty .. first Roll

      a Suffix of Slaughter .. 2nd roll

      Now third pull from 12 Slaughter attributes and hope its Slayer .. 3rd roll

       Now .. pull from 35 different Slayer types .. Hope for Dragon .. 4th Roll

     Now you still have 3 more Properties that you need to roll in your favor in similar fashion
     
     
    Str roll to be high .. increments of 5   15 min
     
    Stam Regen to be high .. Over 5 increments of 1

     Luck is always great increments of 5 over 75 min

     Or Skill Sword increments of 5  over 15 .. min

      As you can see you literally have a better chance of hitting the lottery (twice )

     Now hope you do not get a Disadvantage ..  for ex..Unwieldy .. Weight 50 stones ( this can get you killed)

     Ill add if its Armor you seek you need to and Addtional 5 Resist rolls that need to be acceptable


      You can apply this formula to most any build need , end game gear of the highest tiers is EXtremely hard to come buy ..

      I will say that the SLayer Properties is a very difficult one to get( Ive been trying to get some specific SLayer Bows hence the ex here  ) .. But you can its very difficult process for a TOP tier LA  regardless of the 7 Properties you are hoping to get or near ..

       Its a very difficult to get that Top Tier Item...

     Especially when you consider that if all that Happens you very likely will possess the only item like it in game .. Other may be close .. numbers slighlty lower /disadvantage/only 6 properties etc.. But items can truly be Extremely powerful and One of a Kind

        When i go HUnting i have 2 loot bags one for stuff im  going to keep and one for the stuff im throwing into The  Clean up Brittania bin ( this rewards points based on item that can be traded in for a variety of things )


         My clean up bag ALways has 5 times more stuff in it ..

     My Other bag generally will consist of Gems for selling or Soulforge .. Items for Leveling Soulforge (Melting)

       Very Very Rarely an Item i want to keep , I ahve not upgraded an Item on my main for over a year .. Now im wearing good stuff but there is certainly room for improvement , just have not gotten anything worth keeping ( I play 4 days a week generally)

          Its not like other games where you can Raid for an exact item and it a has Exactly the stats and properties you need for build ( ive seen 27% chance of dropping for the group , thats much better odds of someone getting that desirable item , Than what UO loot table provides..

     And why the items have much more impact upoun death.. and now we've come full circle ..

      On death first hope the Mob does not loot you ..
     
     Now you have 7 minutes to get rezzed and get to your corpse loot it gear up and prepeare to fight ( if in Fel ) deal with Reds also ..

      Much harsher Death Penalty than EQ ..



     Ill add  for bonus , ive played UO 23 years , I ahve some experience here

      LOTRO 15

      EQ to 60

     Wow to max

     EQ 2 120

     Ive endgame raided in all of these and others , gear is easier to get in each .. in my experience and IMO


    Post edited by Scorchien on
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    edited May 23
    tzervo said:
    And if I understand correctly, this is what @Gdemami and @Ungood  were referring to?
    ...apparently we are both refering to something else.

    I was following a topic of rarity and RNG as a variant for uneven distribution - a droped item coming in variants of +1, +2, +3 of the same attribute, Ungood on the other hand follows his own narrative of a system where items come with same numerical value, ie +1 but they vary in attribute(ie. strength, dexterity or wisdom). In such system, the concept of rarity and RNG does not exists, of course, and as such it is completely off-topic.
    Ungood
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,897
    I never really considered equipment as a death penalty in EQ, so if comparing "Death penalties" between EQ and UO it would be EQ's experience loss and time vs UO's equipment loss and potential stat loss and time.

    In EQ you lost experience that required time to gain back and time to get your equipment back. Unless you just didn't care you never actually lost your equipment, but it could potentially take a lot of time to get it back (though not as much as the original acquisition).

    In UO you lost your equipment and if you were red you lost stats. You were lucky to get it back and likely wouldn't so you would have to consider the amount of time it takes to farm back the same equipment you lost + returning stats (I can't comment on the amount of time that took as I don't know).

    So then you have to decide for yourself which you would prefer to do over and over again in the event of a death. Farm your gear and stats back or farm your experience back. The one you would least likely want could be considered the most harsh, IMO.
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,212
    There sure are a lot of humans out there...

    im pretty sure Micheal Jordan is rare
    im pretty sure Tiger Woods is rare
    im pretty sure Mike Tyson is rare


  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,236
    Sometimes I spent like 3 hours in a queue as a wizard to get into a camp where I need some drop from, just queue not even fighting. Indeed the time invested in getting some of the items were insane. One was 3 months real time a robe which even after all that time I never won. I was gifted that robe by a group I saved in Guk because everyone who knew me and most did in Guk knew about my horrible rolls and luck.

    So definitely the time that went into getting the items have to be factored in.
    ChildoftheShadows
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
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