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Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    edited May 2020
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"
    Post edited by Ungood on
    GdemamiIselin
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Scorchien said:
    Being rare and being hard to get are not always the same thing though. Taking months and months of running dungeons to get a very rare item is in my opinion harder, meaning it takes me work, than a one time only drop but could drop off any mob. 

    One requires dedicated work. The other just requires just requires playing any part of the game.

    Now I'm not saying that's what either of you are saying. Just stating my opinion regarding hard drops.

    Lol , did you read at all it drop off any mob .. lol WTF is wrong with people
    Did I say you or anyone else said that? 

    I think I specifically said you are not saying this. I made a comment about rare versus hard to get.  

    Lol WTF is wrong with people.
    Ungood
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin[Deleted User]AlBQuirky
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    edited May 2020
    Deleted. No point.
    Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
    Ungood
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    katzklaw said:
    Scorchien said:
    Sharne said:
    A lot of classes in EQ could solo past level 20, certain classes could just do it quicker
    Soloed to 50 in bard, ranger, and druid. It took me a long time, but then again I don't play MMOs like a race. I Enjoy the experience.

    I soloed whenever i wanted to also in EQ with Ranger and Bard to lvl cap , did most of the dungeons along the way , some pug some guild ..

      Pretty standard stuff . and EQ was not near as difficult as some like to portray it here imo
    oh, i COULD solo with my ranger... yeah... but it took so dang long and was so dang boring kiting in circles or fighting bluegreen mobs (or both)... why bother. grouping was easier. 
    That's kind of the point. Those of us who chose to level that way were not in a race to make it to cap. Did we ever group? Sure, on occasion, but we didn't spend our time sitting around waiting for a group to "optimize our time" and instead just enjoyed the game.

    It's not a brag or a show of skill, because we were no more skilled than any other player, the difference is we didn't give a shit about being first or getting to "end game". The entire game was fun and we enjoyed it.

    The point of saying this stuff is because people are saying it was "forced grouping" when it's completely false. The only one forcing you to group is yourself and the strange desire to catapult to the top as quickly as possible. This is why boring games like WoW and beyond came to fruition. They prey on that uncontrollable desire you have to be the BIGGEST AND STRONGEST AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

    There were very few pieces of content in EQ that I would consider to actually be "forced" grouping. No one is forcing you to group for normal game play. Only you not willing to risk death and insisting on leveling as fast as  possible.

    I tried "soloing" with my Bards and Druids. It just wasn't fun running circles for 15 minutes or kiting for a like amount. I also was not very good at it :)
    ChildoftheShadowskatzklaw

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    edited May 2020
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.
    Iselin
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.

    Almost like he has no awareness whatsoever of variable rate RNG. In D3 the chance of a random legendary drop to be of the better ancient variety is 1 in 10 and the chance for it to be the best version, a Primal, is 1 in 400 which makes Primals very rare.

    RNG + rarity.... pretty simple concept really.

    Ungood
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    ChildoftheShadows said:
    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.
    Last time I had to explain to you how stupid you were, you called the mods because you got butthurt and could not handle the discussion, you do not have the testicular fortitude to handle how tough you talk, so spare me and take your stupid elsewhere.
    I've never "called the mods" on anyone. Ever. I've been banned multiple times for my "testicular fortitude" so spare me the bullshit and either admit you fucked this argument or prove you know what you're talking about.
    Sure.. Sure.. that is why my post got edited in our last little exchange.

    Also dummy, the callout was to Scorchien, to explain, or are you too stupid to grasp that as well.

    But by all means, if you want to play stand in, explain how something is in fact Rare in an RNG system.

    The lottery analogy, just showed how stupid you were and how much you do not even know what you are talking about. But hey, if that is the best you got, then that is the best you got.
    When you can't explain something it means you have no understanding. Buck up or shut up. You don't even understand how the lottery is literally RNG ffs. Again, you never cease to amaze me.
    Ungood
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Ungood said:
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    More ignornace , but its expected .. I did try to help , There are many variables ..

      Top end items will only drop from the hardest content , like an Ancient Worm for ex..

    LOL like no duh really? The hardest mobs drop the highest tier gear.. who would have thunk it.

    Thank you for being so informative.

    Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as "rare"

     Of course there wtf is wrong with your brain ..


     LMFAO get clue shit fer brains ..

     Its hard to believe someone gets stupider with each post but here you are proving it
    Wow, you are rude.

    But you know what, lets play your dumbass game

    Ok explain to me how something is rare with RNG.. go for, because I am betting that you lack the ability to even grasp what you are saying.

    Really.. I just don't think you even know what you are talking about, so.. go for it. Explain to us all how something is rare with a full RNG loot system.



    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.

    Almost like he has no awareness whatsoever of variable rate RNG. In D3 the chance of a random legendary drop to be of the better ancient variety is 1 in 10 and the chance for it to be the best version, a Primal, is 1 in 400 which makes Primals very rare.

    RNG + rarity.... pretty simple concept really.

    Still just RNG, a game of numbers, nothing like the concept of a rare item in a game like EQ.

    In EQ, there was a set number of an item due to time and drop constraints, for example, A Cloak of Flames originally only dropped from Lord Nagafen, Spawned roughly once a week, with a 27% chance to drop the cloak. In a year, only 15 of those cloaks would ever exist on the server, out of thousands of players, only 15 would ever exist. Keeping to that, that would mean in that in the entire life of the Server, over 20 years, only 300 would ever happen, among hundreds of thousands of players, 300 would ever exist.

    That's rarity, in the sense there is an absolute limited number of them. RNG games do not have rarity in that sense on any level.

    RNG is still just a numbers games, keep farming and grinding, you will eventually get what you want, eventually everyone can get what they want. Just like the basic idea that if you buy enough tickets you will win the lottery. That is how RNG works.

    Equally so, the more these items get framed, the more they flood the system, the less rare all these items ultimately become, that is also how RNG works.

    That is not rarity, that is just a numbers game, often a means to build tedious grind without building any kind of real sense of uniqueness to the game.

    But no doubt, I am sure this won't sit well with you, I shall await your mindless insults.
    Limited quantity is not a requirement for something to be rare.

    All you need is variable rate: sword X has a 1 in 3 chance of dropping from boss z while sword y has a 1 in 300 chance to drop from the same boss.

    The mechanics that determine the drop is rolling a number randomly which determines whether you get sword x or sword y or something else or nothing at all. That is all that RNG means.

    No matter how many 100s of thousands of players farm the boss or how many 100s of sword y exist in the game. It would still be more rare than sword X.
    Gdemami
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    ChildoftheShadows said:
    Winning the lottery is pretty fucking rare and it's not hard to create odds worse than that.
    Do you have a point, or are you just going to spout how you don't understand how RNG works?
    Just proving how your argument is going nowhere. You have nothing. 

    And just to be clear it is you that does not understand random and how it's implemented into games.
    Last time I had to explain to you how stupid you were, you called the mods because you got butthurt and could not handle the discussion, you do not have the testicular fortitude to handle how tough you talk, so spare me and take your stupid elsewhere.
    I've never "called the mods" on anyone. Ever. I've been banned multiple times for my "testicular fortitude" so spare me the bullshit and either admit you fucked this argument or prove you know what you're talking about.
    Sure.. Sure.. that is why my post got edited in our last little exchange.

    Also dummy, the callout was to Scorchien, to explain, or are you too stupid to grasp that as well.

    But by all means, if you want to play stand in, explain how something is in fact Rare in an RNG system.

    The lottery analogy, just showed how stupid you were and how much you do not even know what you are talking about. But hey, if that is the best you got, then that is the best you got.
    When you can't explain something it means you have no understanding. Buck up or shut up. You don't even understand how the lottery is literally RNG ffs. Again, you never cease to amaze me.
    No shit dumbass, so explain to me how something can be rare in an RNG system?

    I don't think you can, because either, you are too stupid to even grasp what you are talking about, or just realized how wrong you are, and now trying to save face.

    But hell, lets have some fun showing you how stupid you are.

    Lets go with a basic RNG loot system. Simply set up, there are various stat combos that are controlled by RNG, and as a player, you might be looking for a specific combo of stats for your build. 

    Let's say for the sake of keeping this simple, you are hunting Artifact Gear, so farming mobs that drop it. For the sake of just being simple so your small mind might be able to handle this, lets say, Their are 1 million stat combos that can be made. So, now you say, your ideal combo is 1 in a Million Chance. No doubt at this point, you are going to say something impossibly stupid, like that makes it Rare, right? Wrong Imbecile!

    It's RNG, Every Single Item is a 1 in a Million Item, regardless if it was what you are looking for or not, every single item has the exact same rarity. That is how RNG works..

    Was that too complex for you to grasp, do I need to break out the crayons and try again? Maybe get some orange slices to keep you occupied while you ignore everything I just said because your ego won't be able to handle being wrong, and you will just hurl insults at this point?

    By the way, Love the Sig.. keep it.. Hopefully link it to this discussion as well. ;)
    All you're doing in your scenario is shifting the rarity from the item to the stats themselves. So The Greatsword of Mind-numbing Insanity drops pretty frequently, but the stats are all different, like you said. So is the "Greatsword of Mind-numbing Insanity" rare? Pfft, no of course not, everyone is looting one every few minutes, but getting one with stats that are worth a shit? That's what is rare. You're just looking at the wrong things. It's still a rarity. 

    OMG I got a Greatsword of Mind-numbing Insanity with +10 in all stats! SELLING FOR 5 billion gold! ONLY ONE IN GAME EVER!

    How do most games create rarity using RNG (including Everquest) you ask? Drop rates. See, when a monster dies; each loot item, or at least the ones that are not suppose to drop every time, have a drop rate, or a drop "chance". This is the same thing as rolling a D20 in D&D. The difference is the system rolls a random number for you instead of you rolling the die, and if that random number (typically between 0 and 1) is greater (or lower depending on how they wanted to develop it) than the specified chance then the item drops.

    If the Sword of Mindnumbing Insanity has a drop chance delta of 0.99998 and he spawns no more than once every half hour, or maybe 1 hour, 5 hours, once per day, once a month?! you're going to be lucky to find that weapon. That is a rare item. Brought to you by RNG.

    Notice I said even Everquest uses RNG. Don't believe me? You posted it yourself in one of your more recent replies:
    Ungood said:
    ...In EQ, there was a set number of an item due to time and drop constraints, for example, A Cloak of Flames originally only dropped from Lord Nagafen, Spawned roughly once a week, with a 27% chance to drop the cloak...
    How do you suppose they calculated the drop? RNG. IF, big IF, the chance was actually 27% then I can bet you there was a huge delay between spawns as well.

    Everything in games is fabricated and using random numbers aka "rolling the dice" is always going to be a factor somewhere to help control the flow of items and to create the truly rare pieces.
    Scorchien[Deleted User]
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 101
    loooool. RNG. you could have 1 of them, or you could have hundreds of them. it's RANDOM. it's all rare, and it's all not.

    it's not a "rare" item. but whateva
    UngoodGdemami
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    I guess there is a message in the links you provided, but I am waaaay to important and awesome to read them  :*

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:

    You are really not understanding the UO loot table .. Of course Not all items are Unique , what a silly thing to say..

      What we were discussing is hard to get gear .. Not the easy stuff which EQ has its buckets full of ..

      UO loot Table will pull on death a certain Number of properties on it , dependent upoun many things and its a Random Loot Generator , which makes it really very interesting with the outcome ..

     I personally really enjoy the Random Loot apporach makes hunting fun , you never know what may drop , also why i enjoyed Asherons Call so much ..    Random Loot

       But getting that perfect piece you are looking for can take far longer than a mere 7 days ..  COuld take 7 weeks and you still may not get what you hope for, But there is alsao the chance something better than you could have imagined drop .. .. ..IN EQ you know exactly where to go and what will drop ..

        Now you may get close and can enhance the gear to better suit you ... But its still much more effort in UO to put together a full set for your build than EQ ..  Ive played both to end game and done both .. this is my opinion..

      Here are the bones of UOs Loot Table... Which can produce Truly Unique items , You can get something that is actually Epic/Unique/Legendary call what you will but you will be the only person with it .. Unlike EQ where there 50,000 of that same Legendary Sword floating about..


    @ChildoftheShadows Here you go, I figured I would provide it for you, since I don't think you have the skills to look it up yourself, since you missed it the first time.

    You can see Scorchien changed his tune when called on things being unique, or even rare, and what have you, and this shoots down both your points and Iselin.

    Enjoy the read.. might want to get a clue next time before you shoot off your mouth., or don't, After all, it's you looking like the moron, I don't care either way, in fact, I find you stupidly funny, and your ego to boot makes you hilarious.

    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited May 2020
    Ungood said:
    I can not get down to your level of stupid
    ...true, you made it already way below, and that's something.

    It's simple.

    Rarity is a quantifier of relative distribution - how many of the same items there are within an item category.

    RNG loot is a way how to affect an item distribution - there will be less items present with lower chance to drop than those with higher chance.

    Since RNG is essentially a supply restriction, it will as well affect price of the item - goods in lower supply will price higher over items with higher supply.

    You could argue that if everyone in the game is wearing the rarest items make them no longer rare but that would be a false argument - rarity isn't an attribute of demand, it is an attribute of supply.

    Post edited by Gdemami on
    [Deleted User]bcbullyUngood
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    edited May 2020
    tzervo said:
    Ungood said:

    Let's say for the sake of keeping this simple, you are hunting Artifact Gear, so farming mobs that drop it. Their are 1 million stat combos that can be made. So, now you say, your ideal combo is 1 in a Million Chance. Every Single Item is a 1 in a Million Item, regardless if it was what you are looking for or not, every single item has the exact same rarity
    Edited out the naughty words from the quote for clarity.

    Assume Artifact gear has a 100% percent chance of dropping, and any of the 1 in a million stat combos have equal value and equal chance (0.0001%) then the artifact gear is not rare, everyone killing the mob is guaranteed to have it, but an artifact gear with particular stats is rare (1 in a million). If you judge rarity by the stats, you just created an example where all the possible million gear pieces are equally very rare.

    Lets give it a twist and compare it to your example with the Whatsamacallit Cloak from the Naglaguy. 27% drop rate, one roll in a week. Assume 10 players hack the boss, all equal chance of getting it. Chance to get the Whatsamacallit Cloak is 2.7%, single roll.

    Assume another player going for the artifact gear with a particular stat combination. Mobs spawn that drop it once per hour. 168 hours per week (he is a stinky 24/7 no-lifer), so 168 rolls with 10^-6 chance. This is called Bernoulli's trials:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_trial

    k=1 (I want 1 success, want to get the item once)
    n=168 (168 rolls)
    p=10^-6 (one in a million, probability of success)
    q=1-10^-6 (probability of failure)

    P(1)=(168 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^167=0.000168=0.0168% chance of success.

    So, any artifact gear would not be rare, the 2nd player already got 168 of them. But the artifact with the particular stat is much rarer than the Whatsamacallit cloak.

    One final point I wanted to make, both drop rates (probability of success) and frequency of boss spawn (rolls) contribute to the rarity of an item, they are both there in Bernoulli's trials math.

    Let me know if I missed anything. Don't care if it is still off-topic, this was a fun exercise :)
    Ok a well reasoned argument, so I will give this a response.

    Just to clear something up. Regarding the Cloak of Flames, The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    That means, regardless of how many people killed Naggy, if the cloak showed up, only 1 of them would get it. Ideally, this means the more people that kill Naggy, the less chance you have of being the person that gets the cloak to start with, and thus the idea of DKP to earn the right to loot the cloak, IF it drops.

    In that venture you do not have a 2.7% chance to get the cloak, the cloak has a 27% chance to exist in the chest, and your chances of getting it are a totally different factor.

    As far as the RNG loot system goes, there is no reason for 'the mob' to be a one hour timer, as with RNG systems like that, it's a tier of mob all of which can drop this loot. IE: All Elder Wurms drop Artifact or Better.

    As such the only delay in killing is the speed by which a player can kill them to keep rolling for the loot they are looking for, ergo some players will be able to kill them faster, if they work in teams, they will be able to augment this number exponentially. 

    However, None of this really matters to our direct discussion, as you have already address my point, and agreed with me when you said.

    So, any artifact gear would not be rare

    Which was exactly my point.

    We could stop here, and call it done, since we agree.

    But you talk about personal value, this is not to be confused with the direct rarity of an item.

    Due to it being RNG system, all various combinations of Artifact gear are of equal rarity, we agreed upon this already, as such, regardless if a combination is viewed as coveted or vendor trash, they all have the same chance to happen, they are all that proveriable 1 in a million item.

    It's value to the player is purely a matter of personal taste and has no bearing on its rarity or chance to exist.

    Just like rolling a d20.

    All too often we put way too much emphasis on the 20 or the 1 result.  With 20 being the most coveted roll desired, and 1 being the least desired.

    But it's all just RNG. Any result has the same chance to happen, and we both understand this.

    And that was my whole point, the 17 is no more or less rare then the 4, or the 20, or the 1, and thus no result is more or less rare then another, even if one specific result is desired.

    In contrast to that, getting The cloak of Flames (As in there is only one of its kind), and when you open the Dragon chest, it is like, I would say, spinning a wheel of fortune, that has a series of loot on it, and 63% of the time you won't get the cloak, which makes getting that cloak, directly a rare drop from that chest.

    As it seems we already do agree on this subject, have you thought to wonder why some people are disagreeing with me?

    Have a great day.
    Post edited by Ungood on
    Gdemami[Deleted User]bcbully
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    edited May 2020
    Ungood said:
    I mean, it's built off a wrong premise
    ...yeah, and that premise is yours.

    Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).

    Ungood said:
    That is how RNG works.

    The results we didn't want are not any more or less rare then the results we do want
    ....oh dear.

    That is not how RNG works.

    There is 19 posibble results(19:1) you get something you do not want vs 1 possibility(1:20) of something you want.

    Yeah, the chance you get what you want is much lower than a chance you get what you don't want.

    Post edited by Gdemami on
    Ungood
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,885
    Not trying to get into the middle of this but what is the random chance in UO? Is 1 in 10000 or 1 in 100 the RNG ? Since this debate right now seems to be between Everquest and UO. So what this RNG in UO to get a rare you want?

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    I mean, it's built off a wrong premise
    ...yeah, and that premise is yours.

    Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).
    Are you sure about that?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,067
    tzervo said:


    What I understand here is you try to ask: is (1) or (2) the most meaningful question? (personal or market value). Answer: depends on the game. The examples are not complete enough. You people are insulting one another over different premises.
    I agree with you on this two different games with different systems and the concept of rare in each cannot be compared equally.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Chamber of Chains
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    tzervo said:
    I picked numbers for a straightforward example, but I already took what you say into account

    Ungood said:

    The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    That means, regardless of how many people killed Naggy, if the cloak showed up, only 1 of them would get it. Ideally, this means the more people that kill Naggy, the less chance you have of being the person that gets the cloak to start with, and thus the idea of DKP to earn the right to loot the cloak, IF it drops.

    In that venture you do not have a 2.7% chance to get the cloak, the cloak has a 27% chance to exist in the chest, and your chances of getting it are a totally different factor.
    No clearing up needed here, I already took this into account :) I picked 10 people here as an example, if you want to generalize it, then the chance to get the Cloak is Pcloak=0.27/(nplayers) (my example was 10).

    there is no reason for 'the mob' to be a one hour timer, as with RNG systems like that, it's a tier of mob all of which can drop this loot. IE: All Elder Wurms drop Artifact or Better.
    As such the only delay in killing is the speed by which a player can kill them to keep rolling for the loot they are looking for, ergo some players will be able to kill them faster, if they work in teams, they will be able to augment this number exponentially. 
    Also taken into account, that is the number of rolls (n). If you assume the mobs are abundant, you just divide 7 days by the time to clear a single mob and you get the number of rolls for the artifact gear.

    So now instead of the numbers I gave you just compare:

    Pcloak=0.27/(nplayers)

    with

    Partifact=1

    or

    Partifact_with_particular_stats=P(1)=(n 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^(n-1)

    You give me the n and nplayers and I will tell you if the cloak or the artifact with particular stats is rarer. Disregarding particular stats, the criterion changes. Artifact gear is always more common than the cloak. They are two different questions:

    1) is the cloak rarer than the artifact gear? Yes, Partifact > Pcloak
    2) is the cloak rare than the artifact gear with those stats? Depends on n and nplayers.

    But you talk about personal value, this is not to be confused with the direct rarity of an item.


    What I understand here is you try to ask: is (1) or (2) the most meaningful question? (personal or market value). Answer: depends on the game. The examples are not complete enough. You people are insulting one another over different premises.
    Just to clear up a point.

    I see this is partly my fault, Perhaps I did not explain things well, or maybe it's just been too much blathering, and it got lost in the many previous posts, but, while your math is spot on, you are not taking into account the rarity to be one of the 10 people to kill Nagafen that week.

    I wager that is my fault for not saying that again when I opted to correct your point, In your example, you are functioning from a premise that anyone can just go kill Nagafen, perhaps like some instance based, and any group of 10 people could go and kill the Raid Boss every week at reset.

    My apologies, allow me to explain, that was not the case in EQ, Nagafen is a single spawn mob for the whole server.

    I want to clarify that, and say this again, Only `1 Cloak of Flames will drop roughly once every 3 weeks, across the entire server of thousands of players. 

    Ergo, just to be in the group that gets to kill Nagafen is highly coveted and rare position to be in, so your premise starts off with the player already winning a lottery of sorts, just being one among one of the 10 people that gets to Kill Nagafen.

    So, to help work your math a little better, just because you seem to enjoy the numbers. EQ had 500K subs across 20 servers, so now, What are my chances to get a Cloak of Flames?

    To be nice, I am going remove the competitiveness of hardcore raid guilds in EQ, which still exist, and pretty much if you were not in one, you were not going to be Dragon Hunting, so realistically your chances to get a Cloak of Flames start with, joining the Raid Guild, Proving your Worth, Earning your DKP, and then.. MAYBE.. getting the chance to loot the Cloak of Flames. Given across the 20 year history of your whole Server, only 300 of these items will have existed, I wager it's going to be a lot less than your projected.

    But I would love to see the numbers if you feel like running them.

    Whereas in UO, you are spot on that you can just go out and kill random mobs and pray to RNGesus that you get the combo you want, with no limit on how many times you can roll that dice or how many of said item can exist, so in that regard, I wager your numbers are spot on.




    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    I mean, it's built off a wrong premise
    ...yeah, and that premise is yours.

    Again, the value(demand) is irrelevant - it is the the rarity that affect the value, not the other way round(your erroneous argument).

    Ungood said:
    That is how RNG works.

    The results we didn't want are not any more or less rare then the results we do want
    ....oh dear.

    That is not how RNG works.

    There is 19 posibble results(19:1) you get something you do not want vs 1 possibility(1:20) of something you want.

    Yeah, the chance you get what you want is much lower than a chance you get what you don't want.

    Do you understand your second addition, you are putting the Rarity of an Item upon its Demand, not its Supply.

    In short you just contradicted yourself in your own post, while telling me I am wrong.

    Well at least you did have one good post, so kudos for that.
    Gdemami
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,517
    tzervo said:
    One thing I noticed, my wording is wrong here as well. And if I understand correctly, this is what @Gdemami and @Ungood  were referring to?
    Gdemami said:
    rarity isn't an attribute of demand, it is an attribute of supply.
    Ungood said:
    The chest is single roll, so it does not matter if 10 or a 100 or a 1,000, people engaged in the Raid, the chest has a 27% chance to have a cloak in it.

    What I described here was a change for a player to get the cloak, or an artifact, or an artifact of particular stats. Not the rarity of the item itself.

    So for the cloak, the chance for a single item to drop is:

    Pcloak=0.27

    number of players hacking Naglaguy don't come in here, only the chance for the item to drop.

    The number of attempts for the artifact with particular stats is:

    n = (nplayers hacking the mob * 7 weeks / time to kill mob)

    So the chance for an item to drop in game (controls rarity) is:

    Pcloak=0.27

    Partifact=1

    Partifact_with_particular_stats=P(1)=(n 1)*10^-6*(1-10^-6)^(n-1)

    The rest should be correct.You still need to decide whether you compare with (artifact) or (artifact with stats).
    This is a core point.

    My point is Rarity is an Aspect of Supply. Ergo, all Artifact Items of the same budget have the same chance to exist, regardless of what was generated. IE: All of them had the same chance to be what they are, regardless if that was what you wanted or not.

    It seems my colleagues cannot figure out if they are applying Rarity to Supply or Demand. In case of poor Gdemami , he contradicts himself in his own post, regarding what he thinks validates rarity. 
    Gdemamibcbully
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

This discussion has been closed.