Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

What Does No Vertical Progression Mean? Horizontal Progression is an Illusion.

learis1learis1 Member UncommonPosts: 169
I see a lot of complaints against vertical progression and that it should be horizontal progression. As far as I can tell, vertical progression means that the stat numbers on the enemy are increased. So you either have to gain levels or gear or what-have-you to increase your numbers to be able to defeat them.

People dislike this. Fine. Let's take it away completely. So now no numbers ever increase. What then is left? The difficulty comes solely now from the AI. New content just has monsters with different AI, but the overall power level of everything stays the same. The end. Does this really change anything that much? 

I don't think so. And I think that people who obsess over the so called "horizontal" progression have this illogical fantasy that their character will be non-stop transforming their skills into different skills in a never-ending skill customization system. At some point, your character's playstyle is defined. Horizontal progression has its limits. So when you say you only want horizontal progression and no vertical progression, all you're doing is taking something away from the game, and you're not really adding anything in return.

Mend and Defend

«13

Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Nothing changes anyway, mmorpgs are so easy, gather up 40 hit a button and kill them all.



    horizontal vertical.... how can you tell ?  



    mmolou
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Is it really progession if everything basically resets with the next expansion, forcing the players into an endless gear grind?

    Maybe for some,  definitely not my style anymore.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirkyGdemamiachesomaAeanderCaffynated

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    edited May 2020
    Something like multiple ending in RPG . Instead of kill the bad guy , you make friend with them and world become peace .

    As for MMORPG , it is about how you build your character . And depend on how you build your character , you may get your own ending .

    For example to change class to paladin you need holy attribute and physical attribute and your journey to become one .
    Or to become king , you need ability to summon knight and being master of aura .

    That's what horizontal mean .


    Post edited by iixviiiix on
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Most "Horizontal Fans" do admit that some amount of vertical progression needs to occur. It usually the amount of that verticalness they dislike.

    To me, it is folks seeking "fairness." They want a chance to compete when coming late a game. So, in order to compete, they need to do away with the power gaps that usual vertical progression produces. I can certainly see where they are coming from, but disagree.

    Fairness to one is UNfair to another. So these misnamed "horizontal progression" advocates are basically seeking fair to them, fuck the vets who've played for years.

    There is one other side to this. Horizontal progression can also mean progress as in a story. You read chapter 1 before reading chapter 2 (hopefully). You progressed not vertically, but horizontally, kind of :) This can happen in RPGs as yo9u go through a themepark world and experience its story.

    However, if numbers get bigger, it is now vertical. There can certainly be many ways to limit power gaps, but is it a reasonable expectation in a game that never stops building on itself?
    [Deleted User]phoenixfire2

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,600
    edited May 2020
    I find no vertical progression absolutely matters.

    I played GW2 a few years ago.  It is a game with no gear progression.  

    For starter everyone have equal stats gear in PvP.  So you don't need to grind gear to pvp.  You don't have power gap between player just because of gear level.

    For pve, people dont' check your gear score to see if you are fit to do the content.  But still, people check your achievement point, if it is too low, people don't want to do content with you.  

    It is just much more enjoyable because you can just do the content and not the grind for gear.  A big reason I never return to mmorpg is because it is too grindy and require too much effort to get gear to compete in pvp.
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirky
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    There is no such thing as horizontal progression, progression is always vertical.
    lahnmirkitaradSensaiChildoftheShadowsVengeSunsoarAeander
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,429
    MMORPG games need both horizontal and vertical progression. It's like building a pyramid - in order to make it taller you have to expand its foundations or it will collapse.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    edited May 2020
    There needs to be a method by which characters become more powerful through their adventuring efforts, or they will grow bored and feel that the game is pointless.

    What you CALL the system for becoming more powerful is unimportant.

    Players will always find a way to judge one another in terms of their relative power. "Babathet run. DPS spot open. Must have 500 skill points. " Same thing as levels. 
    AlBQuirky

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    Gdemami said:
    There is no such thing as horizontal progression, progression is always vertical.
    I can’t believe it but I completely agree with you. Horizontal means its not progress at all. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    kitaradKyleranAlBQuirky
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,885
    edited May 2020
    Actually @Gdemami is right all progression even if you do not get higher level make you stronger so it is vertical in the end.

    It is a very shallow description when you say a game that has no level increase is horizontal. It isn't though because even in EQ 2 AA is an increase in power.
    AlBQuirkyAmathe

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    lahnmir said:
    I can’t believe it but I completely agree with you.
    ...everyone can have their bright moments, even you.
    Kyleranlahnmir
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    lahnmir said:
    Gdemami said:
    There is no such thing as horizontal progression, progression is always vertical.
    I can’t believe it but I completely agree with you. Horizontal means its not progress at all. 

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Except that....you are both agreeing on two different things. 

    He's saying there is no way "progression" can be horizontal, if it exists in a game it is vertical, period.

    You are saying if it truly is horizontal,  it can't  really be called progession then, as you aren't making any sort of actual progress. 

    At least that's how I'm reading between the lines this morning.

    Happy Friday.


    [Deleted User]GdemamiChildoftheShadowsAlBQuirky

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AngryElfAngryElf Member UncommonPosts: 194
    However you choose to label it, Project Gorgon has an interesting way of doing the horiz/vert balance. Can pretty fluidly mix high and low level gear/skulls/situations without significant penalties. 
    [Deleted User]AlBQuirky
  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 2,209
    If you gain power it's vertical.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    learis1 said:
    I see a lot of complaints against vertical progression and that it should be horizontal progression. As far as I can tell, vertical progression means that the stat numbers on the enemy are increased. So you either have to gain levels or gear or what-have-you to increase your numbers to be able to defeat them.

    People dislike this. Fine. Let's take it away completely. So now no numbers ever increase. What then is left? The difficulty comes solely now from the AI. New content just has monsters with different AI, but the overall power level of everything stays the same. The end. Does this really change anything that much? 

    I don't think so. And I think that people who obsess over the so called "horizontal" progression have this illogical fantasy that their character will be non-stop transforming their skills into different skills in a never-ending skill customization system. At some point, your character's playstyle is defined. Horizontal progression has its limits. So when you say you only want horizontal progression and no vertical progression, all you're doing is taking something away from the game, and you're not really adding anything in return.

    What is left is a broadening of abilities over time, which increases character power, until the number of concurrently usable abilities are reached, and flexibility by being better able to customize which abilities you concurrently use out of a larger pool available.

    So it isn't solely the AI, but what you can bring to bear against that AI. This is largely the same benefit of vertical progression simply done by another method. So, it doesn't change the result overly much, but it does the method.

    Some prefer that difference in method, so for them it adds satisfying their preference in return, and through that their enjoyment of the game increases. That this enjoyment will likely lead to more fun for these persons provides inherent validation of it.

    Those that dislike that method will find it less fun and thus choose to play games with the vertical progression they enjoy more.

    I'm not seeing a basis for complaint here.
    AlBQuirky
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342
    tzervo said:
    Then just call it progression. Otherwise you also make the distinction.

    An existing example, so we don't get into definition and semantics wars:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Itzel_Poison_Lore

    This skill unlocks areas in some maps. It does not affect your way of handling any other content. It does not let you do more damage to mobs, craft more efficiently or anything else. I call this horizontal progression.

    In my previous imaginary example with skills vs levels:

    - horizontal: skill B does not help you in any way clear content in map A faster.
    - vertical: level 40 helps you clear content in a level 20 map twice as fast.

    The qualitative difference I see between horizontal and vertical is: horizontal adds options, gameplay loops, activities and careers etc. and does not affect the rest of your activities in any meaningful way. Vertical progression means you can do content that is already available faster or more efficiently. Existing game examples are vertical, horizontal or many times hybrid. It is not either/or, it is a slider.
    No.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 5,041
    Gdemami said:
    lahnmir said:
    I can’t believe it but I completely agree with you.
    ...everyone can have their bright moments, even you.
    Now now, don’t get cocky because you happen to be right for once. You still rate well below a broken clock.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Horizontal is like the cosmetics of game play: you're not better just different. 

    It's like playing an alt without actually playing an alt in that mythical RPG with perfect balance: It still takes you 15.2 seconds to kill that elite mob but now you're doing it with a 2HD sword instead of a bow.

    I think it's promoted as a better system by altoholics who don't want to level alts :) but they really should drop the progression bit and just call it horizontal game play because tacking on progression to a system where you don't progress defies common sense,

    PS - I play RPGs to progress and I don't mind leveling alts in the least.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Iselin said:
    Horizontal is like the cosmetics of game play: you're not better just different. 

    It's like playing an alt without actually playing an alt in that mythical RPG with perfect balance: It still takes you 15.2 seconds to kill that elite mob but now you're doing it with a 2HD sword instead of a bow.

    I think it's promoted as a better system by altoholics who don't want to level alts :) but they really should drop the progression bit and just call it horizontal game play because tacking on progression to a system where you don't progress defies common sense,

    PS - I play RPGs to progress and I don't mind leveling alts in the least.
    Special snowflake progression!
    [Deleted User]IselinKyleranAlBQuirky
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,703
    learis1 said:
    I see a lot of complaints against vertical progression and that it should be horizontal progression. As far as I can tell, vertical progression means that the stat numbers on the enemy are increased. So you either have to gain levels or gear or what-have-you to increase your numbers to be able to defeat them.

    People dislike this. Fine. Let's take it away completely. So now no numbers ever increase. What then is left? The difficulty comes solely now from the AI. New content just has monsters with different AI, but the overall power level of everything stays the same. The end. Does this really change anything that much? 

    I don't think so. And I think that people who obsess over the so called "horizontal" progression have this illogical fantasy that their character will be non-stop transforming their skills into different skills in a never-ending skill customization system. At some point, your character's playstyle is defined. Horizontal progression has its limits. So when you say you only want horizontal progression and no vertical progression, all you're doing is taking something away from the game, and you're not really adding anything in return.

    Day 1: My character starts with some single target skills, and can do 1000 dps to a single target

    Day 10: I've played the game and unlocked some new skills that do AoE damage. I can now do 1000dps single target OR 200dps AoE


    In a single target situation, the player that sticks to a single target spec is more powerful. In a 5+ target situation, the player that goes AoE is more powerful. Overall power of the characters remains the same, as long as there is a good mix of single target and aoe content.


    Horizontal progression is basically a really complicated version of rock-paper-scissors


    You progress by unlocking more specialisations / customisations. Power is maintained because you cannot use everything you unlock at the same time: you must make choices. If you want more damage, you must sacrifice in some other area (like health). In other words, when you start, you can only pick rock, but as you progress, you can also pick paper, scissors, lizard, spock etc


    Obviously, implementation can vary wildly, some will be successful, others will suck (just like with vertical progression). That said, the main benefits to the MMO genre would be:


    • All content remains "on level", i.e. it doesn't become obsolete 10 seconds after you complete it.
    • Everyone can play together right from day 1. This is by far the most important reason for switching to horizontal progression. This is the massively multiplayer genre, we're supposed to be playing together! Vertical progression segregates the community, which is just ridiculous, we want to bring people together not drive them apart
    • More customisations / specialisations means that players are more likely to find a playstyle suited to them. This will increase retention
    • Devs don't need to worry about escalation / stat rebalancing when they make expansions. They can just genuinely expand the world and content for all the players without upsetting what is already there.


    The only downside, as far as I can tell, is that horizontal progression is not obvious to the wider community. We've had 40+ years of being "trained" to enjoy vertical progression, both in pen and paper RPGs, board games, single player RPGs and co-op RPGs. And, lets be fair, vertical progression works really well in those situations.

    When all the players of a game have synronised playtime (i.e. all playing at the same time) then vertical progression works really well. If all of your power increases at the same time, then power doesn't segregate you. But, as soon as players start playing at separate times, vertical progression falls apart and causes way more harm than it does good.



    Final point: whilst I am a big fan of horizontal progression and have been promoting it for 10+ years, it doesn't mean I want to get rid of vertical progression. There is clearly a market for it, many players enjoy it. I just feel that horizontal is the better progression mechanic for the massively multiplayer genre and I would like to see at least some games use it. Luckily for me, Camelot Unchained has been designed around horizontal progression, and Crowfall has been making noises about being kinda-sorta horizontal, so hopefully some point in the next few years I'll get to experience it properly in an MMO! Assuming they release....and stick to their promises.....
    Gdemami[Deleted User]AlBQuirky
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    learis1 said:
    I see a lot of complaints against vertical progression and that it should be horizontal progression. As far as I can tell, vertical progression means that the stat numbers on the enemy are increased. So you either have to gain levels or gear or what-have-you to increase your numbers to be able to defeat them.

    People dislike this. Fine. Let's take it away completely. So now no numbers ever increase. What then is left? The difficulty comes solely now from the AI. New content just has monsters with different AI, but the overall power level of everything stays the same. The end. Does this really change anything that much? 

    I don't think so. And I think that people who obsess over the so called "horizontal" progression have this illogical fantasy that their character will be non-stop transforming their skills into different skills in a never-ending skill customization system. At some point, your character's playstyle is defined. Horizontal progression has its limits. So when you say you only want horizontal progression and no vertical progression, all you're doing is taking something away from the game, and you're not really adding anything in return.

    Day 1: My character starts with some single target skills, and can do 1000 dps to a single target

    Day 10: I've played the game and unlocked some new skills that do AoE damage. I can now do 1000dps single target OR 200dps AoE


    In a single target situation, the player that sticks to a single target spec is more powerful. In a 5+ target situation, the player that goes AoE is more powerful. Overall power of the characters remains the same, as long as there is a good mix of single target and aoe content.


    Horizontal progression is basically a really complicated version of rock-paper-scissors


    You progress by unlocking more specialisations / customisations. Power is maintained because you cannot use everything you unlock at the same time: you must make choices. If you want more damage, you must sacrifice in some other area (like health). In other words, when you start, you can only pick rock, but as you progress, you can also pick paper, scissors, lizard, spock etc


    Obviously, implementation can vary wildly, some will be successful, others will suck (just like with vertical progression). That said, the main benefits to the MMO genre would be:


    • All content remains "on level", i.e. it doesn't become obsolete 10 seconds after you complete it.
    • Everyone can play together right from day 1. This is by far the most important reason for switching to horizontal progression. This is the massively multiplayer genre, we're supposed to be playing together! Vertical progression segregates the community, which is just ridiculous, we want to bring people together not drive them apart
    • More customisations / specialisations means that players are more likely to find a playstyle suited to them. This will increase retention
    • Devs don't need to worry about escalation / stat rebalancing when they make expansions. They can just genuinely expand the world and content for all the players without upsetting what is already there.


    The only downside, as far as I can tell, is that horizontal progression is not obvious to the wider community. We've had 40+ years of being "trained" to enjoy vertical progression, both in pen and paper RPGs, board games, single player RPGs and co-op RPGs. And, lets be fair, vertical progression works really well in those situations.

    When all the players of a game have synronised playtime (i.e. all playing at the same time) then vertical progression works really well. If all of your power increases at the same time, then power doesn't segregate you. But, as soon as players start playing at separate times, vertical progression falls apart and causes way more harm than it does good.



    Final point: whilst I am a big fan of horizontal progression and have been promoting it for 10+ years, it doesn't mean I want to get rid of vertical progression. There is clearly a market for it, many players enjoy it. I just feel that horizontal is the better progression mechanic for the massively multiplayer genre and I would like to see at least some games use it. Luckily for me, Camelot Unchained has been designed around horizontal progression, and Crowfall has been making noises about being kinda-sorta horizontal, so hopefully some point in the next few years I'll get to experience it properly in an MMO! Assuming they release....and stick to their promises.....

    How about a mix of Limited Vertical Progression and Horizontal Progression?
    Gdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,703
    learis1 said:
    I see a lot of complaints against vertical progression and that it should be horizontal progression. As far as I can tell, vertical progression means that the stat numbers on the enemy are increased. So you either have to gain levels or gear or what-have-you to increase your numbers to be able to defeat them.

    People dislike this. Fine. Let's take it away completely. So now no numbers ever increase. What then is left? The difficulty comes solely now from the AI. New content just has monsters with different AI, but the overall power level of everything stays the same. The end. Does this really change anything that much? 

    I don't think so. And I think that people who obsess over the so called "horizontal" progression have this illogical fantasy that their character will be non-stop transforming their skills into different skills in a never-ending skill customization system. At some point, your character's playstyle is defined. Horizontal progression has its limits. So when you say you only want horizontal progression and no vertical progression, all you're doing is taking something away from the game, and you're not really adding anything in return.

    Day 1: My character starts with some single target skills, and can do 1000 dps to a single target

    Day 10: I've played the game and unlocked some new skills that do AoE damage. I can now do 1000dps single target OR 200dps AoE


    In a single target situation, the player that sticks to a single target spec is more powerful. In a 5+ target situation, the player that goes AoE is more powerful. Overall power of the characters remains the same, as long as there is a good mix of single target and aoe content.


    Horizontal progression is basically a really complicated version of rock-paper-scissors


    You progress by unlocking more specialisations / customisations. Power is maintained because you cannot use everything you unlock at the same time: you must make choices. If you want more damage, you must sacrifice in some other area (like health). In other words, when you start, you can only pick rock, but as you progress, you can also pick paper, scissors, lizard, spock etc


    Obviously, implementation can vary wildly, some will be successful, others will suck (just like with vertical progression). That said, the main benefits to the MMO genre would be:


    • All content remains "on level", i.e. it doesn't become obsolete 10 seconds after you complete it.
    • Everyone can play together right from day 1. This is by far the most important reason for switching to horizontal progression. This is the massively multiplayer genre, we're supposed to be playing together! Vertical progression segregates the community, which is just ridiculous, we want to bring people together not drive them apart
    • More customisations / specialisations means that players are more likely to find a playstyle suited to them. This will increase retention
    • Devs don't need to worry about escalation / stat rebalancing when they make expansions. They can just genuinely expand the world and content for all the players without upsetting what is already there.


    The only downside, as far as I can tell, is that horizontal progression is not obvious to the wider community. We've had 40+ years of being "trained" to enjoy vertical progression, both in pen and paper RPGs, board games, single player RPGs and co-op RPGs. And, lets be fair, vertical progression works really well in those situations.

    When all the players of a game have synronised playtime (i.e. all playing at the same time) then vertical progression works really well. If all of your power increases at the same time, then power doesn't segregate you. But, as soon as players start playing at separate times, vertical progression falls apart and causes way more harm than it does good.



    Final point: whilst I am a big fan of horizontal progression and have been promoting it for 10+ years, it doesn't mean I want to get rid of vertical progression. There is clearly a market for it, many players enjoy it. I just feel that horizontal is the better progression mechanic for the massively multiplayer genre and I would like to see at least some games use it. Luckily for me, Camelot Unchained has been designed around horizontal progression, and Crowfall has been making noises about being kinda-sorta horizontal, so hopefully some point in the next few years I'll get to experience it properly in an MMO! Assuming they release....and stick to their promises.....

    How about a mix of Limited Vertical Progression and Horizontal Progression?

    I'm a fan of pure horizontal, if at all possible.

    Where im willing to compromise is the tutorial / beginner area.


    As mentioned in my post, unlocking new skills should mean a choice: if you want to use your new skill, you must drop another skill to maintain balance. However, because I am a massive fan of depth, I want my game to have a lot of skills, at least 15 available on the toolbar.

    However, dumping that many skills on a new player is likely to be overwhelming, even though that is what is required if you want to be purely horizontal.


    So, I'm willing to let there be a tutorial / first few zones or whatever that are vertical, as the player goes from their starting 3 skills up to the max toolbar slots. But in other areas (like gear or character stats), I'd want to be 100% horizontal, or as close to that as possible.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    learis1 said:
    I see a lot of complaints against vertical progression and that it should be horizontal progression. As far as I can tell, vertical progression means that the stat numbers on the enemy are increased. So you either have to gain levels or gear or what-have-you to increase your numbers to be able to defeat them.

    People dislike this. Fine. Let's take it away completely. So now no numbers ever increase. What then is left? The difficulty comes solely now from the AI. New content just has monsters with different AI, but the overall power level of everything stays the same. The end. Does this really change anything that much? 

    I don't think so. And I think that people who obsess over the so called "horizontal" progression have this illogical fantasy that their character will be non-stop transforming their skills into different skills in a never-ending skill customization system. At some point, your character's playstyle is defined. Horizontal progression has its limits. So when you say you only want horizontal progression and no vertical progression, all you're doing is taking something away from the game, and you're not really adding anything in return.

    Day 1: My character starts with some single target skills, and can do 1000 dps to a single target

    Day 10: I've played the game and unlocked some new skills that do AoE damage. I can now do 1000dps single target OR 200dps AoE


    In a single target situation, the player that sticks to a single target spec is more powerful. In a 5+ target situation, the player that goes AoE is more powerful. Overall power of the characters remains the same, as long as there is a good mix of single target and aoe content.


    Horizontal progression is basically a really complicated version of rock-paper-scissors


    You progress by unlocking more specialisations / customisations. Power is maintained because you cannot use everything you unlock at the same time: you must make choices. If you want more damage, you must sacrifice in some other area (like health). In other words, when you start, you can only pick rock, but as you progress, you can also pick paper, scissors, lizard, spock etc


    Obviously, implementation can vary wildly, some will be successful, others will suck (just like with vertical progression). That said, the main benefits to the MMO genre would be:


    • All content remains "on level", i.e. it doesn't become obsolete 10 seconds after you complete it.
    • Everyone can play together right from day 1. This is by far the most important reason for switching to horizontal progression. This is the massively multiplayer genre, we're supposed to be playing together! Vertical progression segregates the community, which is just ridiculous, we want to bring people together not drive them apart
    • More customisations / specialisations means that players are more likely to find a playstyle suited to them. This will increase retention
    • Devs don't need to worry about escalation / stat rebalancing when they make expansions. They can just genuinely expand the world and content for all the players without upsetting what is already there.


    The only downside, as far as I can tell, is that horizontal progression is not obvious to the wider community. We've had 40+ years of being "trained" to enjoy vertical progression, both in pen and paper RPGs, board games, single player RPGs and co-op RPGs. And, lets be fair, vertical progression works really well in those situations.

    When all the players of a game have synronised playtime (i.e. all playing at the same time) then vertical progression works really well. If all of your power increases at the same time, then power doesn't segregate you. But, as soon as players start playing at separate times, vertical progression falls apart and causes way more harm than it does good.



    Final point: whilst I am a big fan of horizontal progression and have been promoting it for 10+ years, it doesn't mean I want to get rid of vertical progression. There is clearly a market for it, many players enjoy it. I just feel that horizontal is the better progression mechanic for the massively multiplayer genre and I would like to see at least some games use it. Luckily for me, Camelot Unchained has been designed around horizontal progression, and Crowfall has been making noises about being kinda-sorta horizontal, so hopefully some point in the next few years I'll get to experience it properly in an MMO! Assuming they release....and stick to their promises.....

    How about a mix of Limited Vertical Progression and Horizontal Progression?

    I'm a fan of pure horizontal, if at all possible.

    Where im willing to compromise is the tutorial / beginner area.


    As mentioned in my post, unlocking new skills should mean a choice: if you want to use your new skill, you must drop another skill to maintain balance. However, because I am a massive fan of depth, I want my game to have a lot of skills, at least 15 available on the toolbar.

    However, dumping that many skills on a new player is likely to be overwhelming, even though that is what is required if you want to be purely horizontal.


    So, I'm willing to let there be a tutorial / first few zones or whatever that are vertical, as the player goes from their starting 3 skills up to the max toolbar slots. But in other areas (like gear or character stats), I'd want to be 100% horizontal, or as close to that as possible.

    I understand why you want horizontal progression.  It's just that people can get better at things.  The way I see it, the major problem with Vertical Combat Power Progression in the vast majority of MMORPGs is that Top Tier Veteran Players will be like gods while New Players are as mere ants in comparison. 

    So what if the vertical combat power progression was just more limited and reasonable?  So that a solo Veteran player (maxed combat power) would still be vulnerable to an attack by 10-20 Noobs? 
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,703
    learis1 said:


    I understand why you want horizontal progression.  It's just that people can get better at things.  The way I see it, the major problem with Vertical Combat Power Progression in the vast majority of MMORPGs is that Top Tier Veteran Players will be like gods while New Players are as mere ants in comparison. 

    So what if the vertical combat power progression was just more limited and reasonable?  So that a solo Veteran player (maxed combat power) would still be vulnerable to an attack by 10-20 Noobs? 
    Would all depend on the implementation.


    Does your limited vertical progression get in the way of people playing together?
    Does it make old content obsolete?


    If the answer to either question is "yes", then I dont want it. If the answer to both is "no", then sure, lets go for it.

    [Deleted User]
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    learis1 said:


    I understand why you want horizontal progression.  It's just that people can get better at things.  The way I see it, the major problem with Vertical Combat Power Progression in the vast majority of MMORPGs is that Top Tier Veteran Players will be like gods while New Players are as mere ants in comparison. 

    So what if the vertical combat power progression was just more limited and reasonable?  So that a solo Veteran player (maxed combat power) would still be vulnerable to an attack by 10-20 Noobs? 
    Would all depend on the implementation.


    Does your limited vertical progression get in the way of people playing together?
    Does it make old content obsolete?


    If the answer to either question is "yes", then I dont want it. If the answer to both is "no", then sure, lets go for it.


    I'm thinking that it wouldn't make old content obsolete.  Because the lowest 'level' mobs would still be a threat to the Veteran player if they had sufficient numbers.  And a Mid 'level' player or even a Noob could still be of assistance to a Veteran.  Especially if class interdependence is implemented properly.  Especially if non-combat skills were made to be of greater importance.

    For example, a lower level mage, priest, or thief could be of assistance to a high level warrior in a dungeon.  If there was a need to use non-combat spells or skills which a warrior could not learn.  Mobs who had different resistances and weaknesses could also give a high level warrior trouble if he or she didn't have assistance from other classes. 

    But people who played the game longer would still have advantages if the game had different kinds of power besides combat power.  If the player could also progress by acquiring higher reputation as well as social, economic, political, and military ranks.  Which brought with them various advantages and expanded options. 

    I also think that characters should be able to regress as well as progress.  Like if the character doesn't use a skill or ability enough, then his/her proficiency at that skill or abilityl could decrease over time.
    Gdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

Sign In or Register to comment.