The Game Itself Should Be An Epic Mob

Amathe · May 2020

Nowadays games do a lot to help you. Travel is easy. Death penalties are mild. You have a detailed GPS map. I could go on. The point being, the game is your friend. It wants you to win. It gives you things just for logging on! Come on, group hug.

Everquest was no player's ally. It added a whole set of its own challenges to any that the mobs threw at you. Oh look. A dragon is sitting on your corpse that has all your belongings. Sucks to be you. Hope that corpse can be recovered before it rots!

The dynamic of the game being pitted against the players added a lot to the sense of community. You see a guy in peril, you help him. In part to keep the game, your mutual enemy, from kicking his ass. It was us against the game. People bonded in the way people do who are faced with a common injustice or threat.

Naked corpse runs and xp loss even at the lowest levels (originally). Is that fun? No. Is it fair? No. But does it result in a community wide sense of camaraderie? You bet.

I want to see this in Pantheon. I've had my fill of mainstream games. Let's get back to raging together against the machine.

delete5230 · May 2020

tzervo said:

I want the same. I don't think most players do though. I don't see this happening. If it does, I don't see this being successful or long lasting.

How do you know most don't want this ?

What do they have to compare it too.... Theirs is none of what the OP describes left.
P1999 ?..... its an old dated mess.

Tanist · May 2020

tzervo said:

I want the same. I don't think most players do though. I don't see this happening. If it does, I don't see this being successful or long lasting.

Don't need most to want it though. In fact, Pantheon gained a lot of support because it was believed this is what they were going to provide. Brad even talked about how they didn't need to have everyone for the game, just a niche audience that would support it.

Problem is, every time such a venture begins, the development gets rushed by a bunch of people claiming nobody will play it, that it is a lost venture, that it will fail, etc... etc...

Which I find interesting as there are TONS of games out there that cater to mainstream, bur apparently mainstream is so bored with those games that it needs to find niche development games to go on about how they will fail if they aren't like every other mainstream game out there.

Tanist · May 2020

delete5230 said:

tzervo said:

I want the same. I don't think most players do though. I don't see this happening. If it does, I don't see this being successful or long lasting.

How do you know most don't want this ?

What do they have to compare it too.... Theirs is none of what the OP describes left.
P1999 ?..... its an old dated mess.

It also is nowhere near what EQ was.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

tzervo said:

delete5230 said:
How do you know most don't want this ?

What do they have to compare it too.... Theirs is none of what the OP describes left.
P1999 ?..... its an old dated mess.

Anecdotally, which is why I said "I think".

I am mostly basing my opinion on the fact that easier/less complicated games are more successful, having read lots of negative comments whenever someone suggests introducing loss of assets (i.e. on death) in games, seeing no-effort mechanics such as daily rewards proliferate in games

Tanist said:

Don't need most to want it though. In fact, Pantheon gained a lot of support because it was believed this is what they were going to provide. Brad even talked about how they didn't need to have everyone for the game, just a niche audience that would support it.

Totally agree and this is my hope. You need just one or a few such games to fill that niche and be moderately successful. I am just not sure how viable this is yet. All the games I play are niche and complicated games and have a quite low population. I would not call that a success, and all these games evolve in a very slow pace - little success and low population is always a minus.

Image: https://img.etsystatic.com/il/3ba44b/877865309/il_570xN.877865309_hlmn.jpg?version=0

Raidan_EQ · May 2020

Agreed and this should be required reading for developers:

https://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

Tanist · May 2020

tzervo said:

Tanist said:

Don't need most to want it though. In fact, Pantheon gained a lot of support because it was believed this is what they were going to provide. Brad even talked about how they didn't need to have everyone for the game, just a niche audience that would support it.

Totally agree and this is my hope. You need just one or a few such games to fill that niche and be moderately successful. I am just not sure how viable this is yet. All the games I play are niche and complicated games and have a quite low population. I would not call that a success, and all these games evolve in a very slow pace - little success and low population is always a minus.

It was initially my hope as well, but... as I have discussed in other threads, it appears Pantheon is starting to seek a "broader" audience then they previously were, which I think is likely to result in the same problem most more niche MMO's ran into when trying to cater between mainstream and niche.

The thing about low population is that all that matters is there is a means for them to make money. When you look at the cost of tech, bandwidth, etc... they are much lower than they used to be. This is why you see private servers in peoples home closets/rooms running thousands of connections and still not charging anything (or relying off random donations).

I have toyed with various private servers and they are extremely easy to setup and maintain (though development is a pain due to not having access to the client source). Do the math on for instance 10k subs at 25 bucks a month and that is 250k a month, 3 million a year. The reality is, you don't need massive teams to build a game these days, especially if you are using a fair amount pre-designed engines and tools as those speed up the process. Keep in mind that there are around 10k people that over all play P1999 and that is a sample of the EQ population (it is anecdotal, but I know many who have no desire to "replay" EQ, but would love to play a new EQ like with an updated engine).

EQ was designed with 11 people in three years using entirely proprietary tech and programming back then was a bit more involved as due to lower level hardware interaction required by the developers.

Point is, they don't need a large amount of people, providing they hold to a specific objective. Pantheon spent way too much time on fancy graphics (the bulk of development costs) and useless gadget features in my opinion, while for instance Saga of Lucimia focused to a specific goal. I think while SoL will have a smaller sub base, they will have a more consistent one and they will end up operating on a solid business model with expected RoI.

Pantheon I am unsure about as they seem to have banked on appealing to a more... volatile crowd who I know will "hit it and quit it", now even that may pay off for them as they may get a massive initial base for a small period of time which would set the game up to run on fumes for years (thought F2P and no copy buy in may hamper that). Remember, a failed MMO doesn't mean a failed business. It just means that they didn't become stupid rich right off the bat. Like movies, given time even complete flops can become profitable (as we have seen with Daybreak and other companies necroing old successful MMOs and making good money on them).

I wish it was a simple as saying that Pantheon could betray its base and would fail, due to such, but the reality is not likely. As long as they keep their development costs within reason, they could tell their original base blatantly to get lost and still be profitable. /shrug

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Raidan_EQ said:

Agreed and this should be required reading for developers:

https://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

Theocritus · May 2020

I watch the videos on Pantheon and it looks like 6 players each doing 1 point of damage on a mob with a billion hit points.

Tanist · May 2020

Theocritus said:

I watch the videos on Pantheon and it looks like 6 players each doing 1 point of damage on a mob with a billion hit points.

I am not sure your point here? Are you saying that the fights are too slow? Should the fights be fast paced, kill the mobs quickly, instant button smashing arcade play?

Some games take the arcade action route design, where the fights are about how quickly you spam keys, dance a certain pattern, respond to an event, etc... and some games take the endurance based route where the encounter is a measure of actions over time, a test of character level, attributes, gear, skills, and coordination of the group in an environment where the "time" factor is more how well the group manages its movement and flow through an area to avoid being overwhelmed by re-spawns, adds, and pathing mobs.

Neither is "correct" design, rather it is an taste in approach in play. Most games today focus on very quick fast paced action/arcade play as its play approach and while that can be enjoyable at times, some of us enjoy the other approach in play, and yes... we are aware that it bores some people who want that action form of play.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Theocritus said:

I watch the videos on Pantheon and it looks like 6 players each doing 1 point of damage on a mob with a billion hit points.

Raidan_EQ said:

Agreed and this should be required reading for developers:

https://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

Did you read that article?

achesoma · May 2020

Pantheon certainly seems to be still heading in that direction. Did you watch the latest stream? Encumbrance and coin weight will be a thing.

Raidan_EQ · May 2020

@Ancient_Exile

Yes

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Raidan_EQ said:

@Ancient_Exile

Yes

No, I was asking @Theocritus. Sorry.

Tanist · May 2020

achesoma said:

Pantheon certainly seems to be still heading in that direction. Did you watch the latest stream? Encumbrance and coin weight will be a thing.

Which will make great sale points for bags in the store! j/k

Honestly though, that is a pointless victory for me if they allow caravans, Call of the Hero (This was always a major abuse in EQ, which is why they had to ban it in certain zones), Mounts (everyone gets a run speed spell?), allowing any gear to return on death, or provide a means for players to transport easily around the world (EQs original release had limited zones you could port and some of the locations were dangerous).

Mylan12 · May 2020

Tanist said:

achesoma said:

Pantheon certainly seems to be still heading in that direction. Did you watch the latest stream? Encumbrance and coin weight will be a thing.

Which will make great sale points for bags in the store! j/k

Honestly though, that is a pointless victory for me if they allow caravans, Call of the Hero (This was always a major abuse in EQ, which is why they had to ban it in certain zones), Mounts (everyone gets a run speed spell?), allowing any gear to return on death, or provide a means for players to transport easily around the world (EQs original release had limited zones you could port and some of the locations were dangerous).

Yeah there are a small group of us that played early EQ and hope this game is like that as opposed to what EQ became later. Only thing I like to see change from early EQ is a way to recover your corpse and gear if it is lost to a game bug and the bug prevents you from recovering it. I hope it has no mounts, no teleport except by certain classes and so on.

I expect it to be more like later EQ, how much will determine if I play it or not.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Mylan12 said:

Tanist said:

achesoma said:

Pantheon certainly seems to be still heading in that direction. Did you watch the latest stream? Encumbrance and coin weight will be a thing.

Which will make great sale points for bags in the store! j/k

Honestly though, that is a pointless victory for me if they allow caravans, Call of the Hero (This was always a major abuse in EQ, which is why they had to ban it in certain zones), Mounts (everyone gets a run speed spell?), allowing any gear to return on death, or provide a means for players to transport easily around the world (EQs original release had limited zones you could port and some of the locations were dangerous).

Yeah there are a small group of us that played early EQ and hope this game is like that as opposed to what EQ became later. Only thing I like to see change from early EQ is a way to recover your corpse and gear if it is lost to a game bug and the bug prevents you from recovering it. I hope it has no mounts, no teleport except by certain classes and so on.
I expect it to be more like later EQ, how much will determine if I play it or not.

Why don't you like mounts? Is it because most MMORPG worlds aren't really large enough to actually need them?

Raidan_EQ · May 2020

I’m not a huge fan of mounts either - especially flying mounts as they allow for content bypass. Even regular mounts effectively decrease the scope of the world and interdependence between classes (Shaman/Druid SoW). “If” mounts were released they should have max run speed below player casted run speed effects and you should have X% chance to be knocked off by a mob when being hit.

Amathe · May 2020

There has to be some kind of expensive item you can buy with in game coin, if coin is to have any value. Mounts were it, long ago. Everything measured relative to what a mount costs. You can't exactly base the value of coin on the full faith and credit of Norrath.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Raidan_EQ said:

I’m not a huge fan of mounts either - especially flying mounts as they allow for content bypass. Even regular mounts effectively decrease the scope of the world and interdependence between classes (Shaman/Druid SoW). “If” mounts were released they should have max run speed below player casted run speed effects and you should have X% chance to be knocked off by a mob when being hit.

And why can't mounts be killed (they can be 'killed' in BDO, but not permanently IIRC)? Why can't mounts be stolen? (Some horse thieves/rustlers in the past made a pretty decent living. Though they usually got hanged if caught.) And why can't I move someone else's mount out of the way or kill it (if collision detection is enabled/implemented in the case of mounts.)

And you know what? I don't see why collision detection between player characters, non-player characters, and mobs and other player characters, non-player characters, and mobs would really be a problem. Sure, there's some juicy opportunities for griefing other players, but these can be thwarted in many, most, if not all cases. For example, let's say some ingenious griefer decides to use his/her character to block the entrance to a building. So then, just give the player the option to move the offending character out of the way with his/her character. However, if the player character is too weak (doesn't have a high enough STR attribute), then he or she can alert a guard (stationed or patrolling) somewhere in the town or city and ask that guard (or guards) to move the laughing griefer.

Or the player could ask another player (with higher STR) to move the devious prankster.

Just my 2 cents on the matter(s).

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

Amathe said:

There has to be some kind of expensive item you can buy with in game coin, if coin is to have any value. Mounts were it, long ago. Everything measured relative to what a mount costs. You can't exactly base the value of coin on the full faith and credit of Norrath.

I really don't think all types of mobs or even every individual type of a mob should drop coins either. What the hell is a wolf or a boar doing with gold? Can some person (who must indubitably possess a far higher Intelligence Quotient than I) please explain that to me?

EDIT: If any form of money/currency is an infinitely renewable resource that has no inherent value, then an economy runs the risk of allowing that form of currency over time.

However, truth to be told, anything can be used as a form of currency (such as paper). So long as everyone participating in the economy agrees that that the currency has value or represents things which have more intrinsic value (such as property, resources, services, time spent working/earning the money, etc.) But those who have at least some amount of influence over the economy must insure that the currency maintains some level of rarity and/or is difficult to counterfeit). Though one of the problems with using something undeniably rare (such as gold or certain kinds of gems) as the principal/most important form of currency is that, the more rare it is, the more simple it is control by those in power. Or those who seek power/control over others in the economy.

Kyleran · May 2020

Amathe said:

There has to be some kind of expensive item you can buy with in game coin, if coin is to have any value. Mounts were it, long ago. Everything measured relative to what a mount costs. You can't exactly base the value of coin on the full faith and credit of Norrath.

Glowy swords... always loved me them shinys

PhyllisLangley · May 2020

Ah man, you got me!
Never mind that I bought the game on day 1 and played it all through the summer that it came out and many times here and there since then and that I love the game, beyond its shit combat that the rest of majority of people who’ve played it agree with me on!

Never mind any of that!

Now days I am improving my clicking speed to play games and I am doing it on cpstest.org

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

PhyllisLangley said:

Ah man, you got me!
Never mind that I bought the game on day 1 and played it all through the summer that it came out and many times here and there since then and that I love the game, beyond its shit combat that the rest of majority of people who’ve played it agree with me on!

Never mind any of that!

Shhh!

There are potential investors reading this thread as I type. Maybe.

delete5230 · May 2020

Mounts and economy

Even Vanilla World of Warcraft was hard to save 90 gold for the first mount at level 40.
Still it was not needed but it would be embarrassing if not acquired by level 45.

Professions such as Engineering or Enchanting were not recommended on first character unless you REALLY were good with the economy or your Guild worked with you as a teem effort.

First aid was a great secondary profession, however you forfeit a good profit by not selling cloth on the auction.

Unfortunately crafting was somewhat undesirable and was never fixed to be profitable for a noob trying to make early gold.

important:
Economy was based off 90 gold by level 40...... Even level one, you had to be thinking 90 gold......... A BASE LINE FOR ANY GAME is important. Games today their is no baseline.

Ancient_Exile · May 2020

xD_Gaming said:

I never understood "corpse runs". it seems a bit redundant do be defeated, but really defeated becaus of respawn. Now if this was perma-death then maybe, but as a single mechanic with 0 pvp, it just seems redundant

What I don't understand is why my corpse would remain in the game world after my character is raised/resurrected. Or why my ghost is suddenly hurled X amount of distance away from said corpse upon death.

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The Game Itself Should Be An Epic Mob

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV