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Can Sandbox Open PVP MMOs be accessible for both PVE and Casual audiences? Aka Solving Griefing

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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,176
    edited May 5
    Mylan12 said:
    PVE RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS - No, we cannot solve griefing in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG.  It's impossible.  There's no effective way we can restrict/limit the ability of griefers/stalkers/overly abusive players from ruining the game for everyone else.  There's no way to create safeguards that will protect players who mostly just want to participate in PVE or just want to focus on PVE during a particular gaming session.  Open competition in MMORPGs is bad.  Any form of competition must be very limited in scope and should have no real effect on the game world or our characters.

    PVP RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS - No, you cannot put any restrictions on PVP in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Sandbox MMORPG.  Having logical/rational potential consequences for choices and actions in a Role-Playing Game = punishing players.  Because PVPers want to play in a totally lawless/chaotic game world where the only law is the Law of the Jungle.  The strong survive and prey on the weak.  The weak must become strong (if they can manage it while getting mercilessly ganked most of the time) or remain eternal victims. 

    Both of these Cults also seem to believe that Final Fantasy/Dragon Warrior/Everquest/World of Warcraft-style practically unlimited Vertical Character Level/Gear/Combat Power progression is only type of progression that should be used in MMORPGs.  (Note:  The progression is only temporarily limited until the next expansion is released.)

    However, what I have seen in the vast majority of MMORPGs that have OWPVP, or even just PVP, is that the competition is really more of a Race.  Who can get to higher or max level the fastest?  Who can acquire BIS gear before other players?  Because Character Level and Gear Level usually matter more than skill.  The most skilled players might not have a chance if they aren't high enough level or don't have good enough gear.  No matter how well they play.  Then throw in P2W Cash Shops, allow Whales to pay to crush other players, and PVP gets really screwed up.

    So, I do not believe that FF/DW/EQ/WoW-style progression will ever work for PVP in an MMORPG.  And, so we must have an alternative style of progression.  I have already described this alternative style of progression.  On Page One of this thread (my 2nd post).


     I guess you did play UO back in the day?  It had the alternative style progression and fairly sever penalty for PKing.  So this has already been tried. You will note we don't have UO2 or UO clones. Probably because few people will play that style game. And before you ask, I did play UO back then but moved to EQ when it came out and never looked back.
     
     The way early DAoC did the PvP or really RvR is the best way I seen but it did have a big flaw in that eventually the realms would become unbalance and one realm would dominate RvR which would over time make it even worse.

    Personally I think PvP games should be just that PvP.
    PvE games should be just PvE games.

     An attempt at making a combo game with both will always lean toward one play style making the other play style players unhappy and most likely they will leave the game.
    I played UO for about the first 13 years. 

    - The PKers always had ways of getting around the penalties. 
    That's why it didn't work. 
    And the same thing happens in every other OW-PvP game that puts in a Justice System. They simply don't work as a punishment that prevents griefing, because they don't actually punish. 

    - The progression system, purely skill based, was fantastic. However, I do see the attraction of a Class Based system. 
    In my opinion, the most important thing about the progression system is that it needs to be with lower power advancement, so that players are not divided into level ranges. 
    That divides the players, and even divides the game world's content. It ruins social interaction, and most players never make friends they can trust, and play with long term. 
    It also screws up any effort at a deeper economy. 
    bcbullyAncient_ExileAlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,234
    AlBQuirky said:
    I think what we need to do is define what the penalties are, why they are there, and what they accomplish. 
    After all these years people just don't trust anyone. And I can understand that.

    Remember, laws (or rules in this case) don't prevent crimes. They simply give a consequence for an action.

    But if a player suffers those consequences enough times, it's quite possible that he/she might be encouraged to change his/her behavior.

    One can always hope so :)
    Ancient_Exile

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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