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Map spawn vs Spot Spawn

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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    AlBQuirky said:
    Amathe said:
    I like EQ style, where a mob can spawn at any one of numerous points on the map. And may also need to be triggered somehow.
    Yea, I had no trouble accepting EQ's mob spawning system, nor WoW Classic's. Seeing people lined up to kill a mob was not that earth-shattering (or Azeroth/Norath) as some people cry.

    I see good and bad points to either way, just depending how the game is built. Even Gamer54321's mention about "Curve Spawns" looks interesting until 4 or more players cross that curve at the same time at differing points. In other words, if you look at it in a Massively Multiplayer games :)

    People lined up to kill a mob and having to take turns killing it totally breaks immersion and is lame.

    Now, of course, these people could hopefully be allowed to group and kill the mob together, but then it would probably be way too easy and also lame.

    But what if the Mob become more powerful depending on how many players came within range?  What if the Mob called subordinates/henchmen to its aid?  And more arrived depending on how many players joined in the battle?  What if all players who did a certain amount of damage to the Mob and/or its henchmen got credit for it?

    There so, so many other immersion breaking aspects for me that lines of people is minute in comparison.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Amathe said:
    I like EQ style, where a mob can spawn at any one of numerous points on the map. And may also need to be triggered somehow.
    Yea, I had no trouble accepting EQ's mob spawning system, nor WoW Classic's. Seeing people lined up to kill a mob was not that earth-shattering (or Azeroth/Norath) as some people cry.

    I see good and bad points to either way, just depending how the game is built. Even Gamer54321's mention about "Curve Spawns" looks interesting until 4 or more players cross that curve at the same time at differing points. In other words, if you look at it in a Massively Multiplayer games :)

    People lined up to kill a mob and having to take turns killing it totally breaks immersion and is lame.

    Now, of course, these people could hopefully be allowed to group and kill the mob together, but then it would probably be way too easy and also lame.

    But what if the Mob become more powerful depending on how many players came within range?  What if the Mob called subordinates/henchmen to its aid?  And more arrived depending on how many players joined in the battle?  What if all players who did a certain amount of damage to the Mob and/or its henchmen got credit for it?

    There so, so many other immersion breaking aspects for me that lines of people is minute in comparison.
    When I brought that up I wasn't even thinking about it being an immersion buster. It together with individual mob tagging (and yes, we did group up on the fly while waiting in line to make it go faster) and 100% reliable spawn spots, were just awkward and bad design that most MMOs have done away with (well... not the spot spawn for NPCs - that's still a thing in most of them) for good reason.

    I don't paint all modern design in MMOs done for the sake of convenience with the same brush. Some of it is very good and much better than what it replaced and some of it is bad when they go too far.

    Spot spawning is actually more convenient for anyone looking for a specific mob type or named mob - the YT guides they look-up won't lead them astray :) - but it's also shitty design if you actually like to explore, track and hunt or want to see mobs simulating internal motivation for being static or roaming.

    It was that last bit that Dave Mark and Storybricks talked a lot about when they were designing the EQN AI and why I was interested in EQN - the voxel part could have just gone and screwed itself for all I cared - it was mobs and NPCs behaving more intelligently that I was looking forward to.
    AlBQuirkyAmaranthar
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,847
    Kind of tough to respond to this question because every mob is assigned a code number and every game uses spawn points.
    So i guess we can talk about mobs roaming anywhere in a map.There is a downside to this and idk the real truth but maybe devs understand the problem.The problem is that these mobs could in essence all cluster to a spot on the map like a rock formation that doesn't let the mobs move away from.I have actually seen this in games.

    So my answer is i prefer the way FFXi does it,the mobs have a "region" within the map that they can roam.

    On your other query "do things with the mobs"you can do that with either or design.A mob within FFXI for example willl chase you right to the zone line if needed,they are relentless.You can kite a mob all over any map,there is no restrictions based on spawn nodes.

    If i had any want from the whole way mobs are spawned is to have all mobs spawn at ANY spawn node instead of the exact nodes or placeholder nodes.Simple reason is it just thwarts cheats a little more,doesn't stop the warp cheats but still it would help.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 28
    Wizardry said:
    Kind of tough to respond to this question because every mob is assigned a code number and every game uses spawn points.
    So i guess we can talk about mobs roaming anywhere in a map.There is a downside to this and idk the real truth but maybe devs understand the problem.The problem is that these mobs could in essence all cluster to a spot on the map like a rock formation that doesn't let the mobs move away from.I have actually seen this in games.

    So my answer is i prefer the way FFXi does it,the mobs have a "region" within the map that they can roam.

    On your other query "do things with the mobs"you can do that with either or design.A mob within FFXI for example willl chase you right to the zone line if needed,they are relentless.You can kite a mob all over any map,there is no restrictions based on spawn nodes.

    If i had any want from the whole way mobs are spawned is to have all mobs spawn at ANY spawn node instead of the exact nodes or placeholder nodes.Simple reason is it just thwarts cheats a little more,doesn't stop the warp cheats but still it would help.

    Intelligent demi-human and monster Mobs (the type that have at least some form of primitive tribe structure and the basics of civilization) could act like AI Factions in RTS games.  Found settlements, gather, build, research tech, produce non-combat and combat units from different building types.  Station guards, send out patrols and warbands, seek out additional resources, attack & occupy other settlements, etc.  They could also occupy strategic locations.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Map spawn and wandering. But I'd like to see that enhanced, I mean it's not that simple to begin with and it can be built upon to make a very interesting world to adventure in. 

    - MOB "wants and goals", for example, leading them in search of a place to call home, joining up with like MOBs, seeking food and gold, etc. 

    - Mob building, nests to forts. Dungeon takeovers. 


    I don't really care where they spawn, what's more important is how they act when they spawn.

    For example, if there is an orc camp on the map, I would expect new orcs to spawn within the camp, but ideally I'd then like them to be assigned to various spots around the camp, maybe assigned to a proper patrol or a raiding group. If the assignments of the new spawns are reactions to the world around them, then even better (e.g. if the orcs have a good population, then maybe more raiding groups are created to get supplies, but if the orcs are under pressure, maybe a bigger percentage get assigned to guard duty).

    I like the idea of mob spawns being randomly placed, but not just the mobs themselves unless they are typical animal types which are found seemingly roaming anyway. I imagine orc camps appearing within orc territories and workers assembling, gatherers gathering. The longer it's there the more they spread. When players find it if they manage to wipe it out then it will simply respawn somewhere else as a different group. I believe SWG had a similar system for some of their spawn camps.

    Good stuff.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Iselin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Amathe said:
    I like EQ style, where a mob can spawn at any one of numerous points on the map. And may also need to be triggered somehow.
    Yea, I had no trouble accepting EQ's mob spawning system, nor WoW Classic's. Seeing people lined up to kill a mob was not that earth-shattering (or Azeroth/Norath) as some people cry.

    I see good and bad points to either way, just depending how the game is built. Even Gamer54321's mention about "Curve Spawns" looks interesting until 4 or more players cross that curve at the same time at differing points. In other words, if you look at it in a Massively Multiplayer games :)

    People lined up to kill a mob and having to take turns killing it totally breaks immersion and is lame.

    Now, of course, these people could hopefully be allowed to group and kill the mob together, but then it would probably be way too easy and also lame.

    But what if the Mob become more powerful depending on how many players came within range?  What if the Mob called subordinates/henchmen to its aid?  And more arrived depending on how many players joined in the battle?  What if all players who did a certain amount of damage to the Mob and/or its henchmen got credit for it?

    There so, so many other immersion breaking aspects for me that lines of people is minute in comparison.
    When I brought that up I wasn't even thinking about it being an immersion buster. It together with individual mob tagging (and yes, we did group up on the fly while waiting in line to make it go faster) and 100% reliable spawn spots, were just awkward and bad design that most MMOs have done away with (well... not the spot spawn for NPCs - that's still a thing in most of them) for good reason.

    I don't paint all modern design in MMOs done for the sake of convenience with the same brush. Some of it is very good and much better than what it replaced and some of it is bad when they go too far.

    Spot spawning is actually more convenient for anyone looking for a specific mob type or named mob - the YT guides they look-up won't lead them astray :) - but it's also shitty design if you actually like to explore, track and hunt or want to see mobs simulating internal motivation for being static or roaming.

    It was that last bit that Dave Mark and Storybricks talked a lot about when they were designing the EQN AI and why I was interested in EQN - the voxel part could have just gone and screwed itself for all I cared - it was mobs and NPCs behaving more intelligently that I was looking forward to.

    (Note:  Bold Emphasis added to Iselin's original post.)

    That would be a step in the right direction.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    edited April 28
    Iselin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Amathe said:
    I like EQ style, where a mob can spawn at any one of numerous points on the map. And may also need to be triggered somehow.
    Yea, I had no trouble accepting EQ's mob spawning system, nor WoW Classic's. Seeing people lined up to kill a mob was not that earth-shattering (or Azeroth/Norath) as some people cry.

    I see good and bad points to either way, just depending how the game is built. Even Gamer54321's mention about "Curve Spawns" looks interesting until 4 or more players cross that curve at the same time at differing points. In other words, if you look at it in a Massively Multiplayer games :)

    People lined up to kill a mob and having to take turns killing it totally breaks immersion and is lame.

    Now, of course, these people could hopefully be allowed to group and kill the mob together, but then it would probably be way too easy and also lame.

    But what if the Mob become more powerful depending on how many players came within range?  What if the Mob called subordinates/henchmen to its aid?  And more arrived depending on how many players joined in the battle?  What if all players who did a certain amount of damage to the Mob and/or its henchmen got credit for it?

    There so, so many other immersion breaking aspects for me that lines of people is minute in comparison.
    When I brought that up I wasn't even thinking about it being an immersion buster. It together with individual mob tagging (and yes, we did group up on the fly while waiting in line to make it go faster) and 100% reliable spawn spots, were just awkward and bad design that most MMOs have done away with (well... not the spot spawn for NPCs - that's still a thing in most of them) for good reason.

    I don't paint all modern design in MMOs done for the sake of convenience with the same brush. Some of it is very good and much better than what it replaced and some of it is bad when they go too far.

    Spot spawning is actually more convenient for anyone looking for a specific mob type or named mob - the YT guides they look-up won't lead them astray :) - but it's also shitty design if you actually like to explore, track and hunt or want to see mobs simulating internal motivation for being static or roaming.

    It was that last bit that Dave Mark and Storybricks talked a lot about when they were designing the EQN AI and why I was interested in EQN - the voxel part could have just gone and screwed itself for all I cared - it was mobs and NPCs behaving more intelligently that I was looking forward to.

    I agree, but I did have fun camping Orcs in EQ. That was a totally different experience than we have today, though. The groups I was in actually talked to each other during downtime. Hell, we HAD downtime! We told jokes, planned strategies, and just shot the breeze. That doesn't happen much in today's MMOs.

    I hated target tagging (a nice nice avenue for PvE griefing), and yes, lining up to kill bosses was silly. But it worked back then when it was groups, not individuals.

    Again, old school MMORPGs were by no means "perfect", but I certainly enjoyed my time there. I can't say the same for modern day MMOs :)
    Tuor7Amaranthar

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    Iselin said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Amathe said:
    I like EQ style, where a mob can spawn at any one of numerous points on the map. And may also need to be triggered somehow.
    Yea, I had no trouble accepting EQ's mob spawning system, nor WoW Classic's. Seeing people lined up to kill a mob was not that earth-shattering (or Azeroth/Norath) as some people cry.

    I see good and bad points to either way, just depending how the game is built. Even Gamer54321's mention about "Curve Spawns" looks interesting until 4 or more players cross that curve at the same time at differing points. In other words, if you look at it in a Massively Multiplayer games :)

    People lined up to kill a mob and having to take turns killing it totally breaks immersion and is lame.

    Now, of course, these people could hopefully be allowed to group and kill the mob together, but then it would probably be way too easy and also lame.

    But what if the Mob become more powerful depending on how many players came within range?  What if the Mob called subordinates/henchmen to its aid?  And more arrived depending on how many players joined in the battle?  What if all players who did a certain amount of damage to the Mob and/or its henchmen got credit for it?

    There so, so many other immersion breaking aspects for me that lines of people is minute in comparison.
    When I brought that up I wasn't even thinking about it being an immersion buster. It together with individual mob tagging (and yes, we did group up on the fly while waiting in line to make it go faster) and 100% reliable spawn spots, were just awkward and bad design that most MMOs have done away with (well... not the spot spawn for NPCs - that's still a thing in most of them) for good reason.

    I don't paint all modern design in MMOs done for the sake of convenience with the same brush. Some of it is very good and much better than what it replaced and some of it is bad when they go too far.

    Spot spawning is actually more convenient for anyone looking for a specific mob type or named mob - the YT guides they look-up won't lead them astray :) - but it's also shitty design if you actually like to explore, track and hunt or want to see mobs simulating internal motivation for being static or roaming.

    It was that last bit that Dave Mark and Storybricks talked a lot about when they were designing the EQN AI and why I was interested in EQN - the voxel part could have just gone and screwed itself for all I cared - it was mobs and NPCs behaving more intelligently that I was looking forward to.

    (Note:  Bold Emphasis added to Iselin's original post.)

    That would be a step in the right direction.

    I agree. And EQNext failed to even launch.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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