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Designing Gear for Horizontal Progression

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  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Wizardry said:
    You mentioned one aspect that i actually detest.

    I do not agree that players should be rewarded for specific content,at least not the way it is being done right now.
    Right now it is your GEAR that is doing the content and NOT the player,that is just wrong.

    The other aspect is i think you are referring to improving the same item.I do not want to see any form of gem slot ideas in these mmorpg's,that crap can stay in arpg's where all the crap ideas belong.

    Instead of tying most ideas to elite bosses,WAY over done,i rather see the more realistic aspect of game design.So for example you want that level 1 sword to remain viable forever,sure why not.
    That is what crafting should be for,you craft and learn skills to imbue that sword with new properties,new properties means the potential to change color or add an aura.The same goes for gear,a leathercraft could reinforce that level 1 item or a blacksmith could reforge that item to be as good as a new level 50 item.

    So then of course we know where this design leads us.It basically removes any need or intrigue killing  bosses.Well first of all Boss killing is way over done,these games become nothing more than simply killing bosses.So how can we keep every idea viable,well with layers of depth in the combat.The topic of combat design is way too big a scope to further explain but i could design it,so anyone else could as well,IF they wanted to put in that effort.

    We simply won't see it because it is way easier to create some cheap rock dungeon and dot down some vendor trash mobs with a Boss at the end of the tunnel,amateur hour game design right there.

    90% of so-called MMORPGs are just Skinner Boxes with a few bells and whistles.
    AmarantharGdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 2020
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    AeanderAmarantharGdemami
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,990
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Aeander said:
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 

    Right.  Also, the results of PVP battles don't actually change anything in the game world.  And neither do the results of PVE battles for that matter.  I think that's the principal reason for stagnation in MMORPGs.  Because the game worlds are static rather than dynamic, the players are dependent on the developers to provide new content occasionally.  But new content can simply not be designed and released fast enough to keep up with the rate at which the already existing content can be consumed by the vast majority of players.

    As for characters with stealth abilities...

    Rogues should actually need to hit players from behind (backstab) in order to do a lot of damage.  However, finding a spot to stick a blade against a warrior class (fighter, paladin) wearing full plate armor wouldn't be such an easy task. 

    Stealth seems like it was originally a way to portray hiding in shadows.  But now it's become some sort of super magical-type ability.  In original D&D, a thief/rogue would need to successfully hide in shadows and move silently in order to attempt a backstab.  Or at least he or she would need to get behind an opponent in the midst of combat without being noticed.  This has, of course, been way oversimplified in MMORPGs.  Perhaps someday, when more players have powerful computers, rogues will actually be able to hide in shadows. 
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,990
    Aeander said:
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 

    Right.  Also, the results of PVP battles don't actually change anything in the game world.  And neither do the results of PVE battles for that matter.  I think that's the principal reason for stagnation in MMORPGs.  Because the game worlds are static rather than dynamic, the players are dependent on the developers to provide new content occasionally.  But new content can simply not be designed and released fast enough to keep up with the rate at which the already existing content can be consumed by the vast majority of players.

    As for characters with stealth abilities...

    Rogues should actually need to hit players from behind (backstab) in order to do a lot of damage.  However, finding a spot to stick a blade against a warrior class (fighter, paladin) wearing full plate armor wouldn't be such an easy task. 

    Stealth seems like it was originally a way to portray hiding in shadows.  But now it's become some sort of super magical-type ability.  In original D&D, a thief/rogue would need to successfully hide in shadows and move silently in order to attempt a backstab.  Or at least he or she would need to get behind an opponent in the midst of combat without being noticed.  This has, of course, been way oversimplified in MMORPGs.  Perhaps someday, when more players have powerful computers, rogues will actually be able to hide in shadows. 
    I also think that being able to stealth when you're already in combat should simply not be possible. It makes absolutely no logical sense, and having this automatic "get out of Hell free" invisibility button makes Rogues into a cowardly low-risk-high-reward class. 
    Ancient_ExileUngoodSovrath
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 2020
    Aeander said:
    Aeander said:
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 

    Right.  Also, the results of PVP battles don't actually change anything in the game world.  And neither do the results of PVE battles for that matter.  I think that's the principal reason for stagnation in MMORPGs.  Because the game worlds are static rather than dynamic, the players are dependent on the developers to provide new content occasionally.  But new content can simply not be designed and released fast enough to keep up with the rate at which the already existing content can be consumed by the vast majority of players.

    As for characters with stealth abilities...

    Rogues should actually need to hit players from behind (backstab) in order to do a lot of damage.  However, finding a spot to stick a blade against a warrior class (fighter, paladin) wearing full plate armor wouldn't be such an easy task. 

    Stealth seems like it was originally a way to portray hiding in shadows.  But now it's become some sort of super magical-type ability.  In original D&D, a thief/rogue would need to successfully hide in shadows and move silently in order to attempt a backstab.  Or at least he or she would need to get behind an opponent in the midst of combat without being noticed.  This has, of course, been way oversimplified in MMORPGs.  Perhaps someday, when more players have powerful computers, rogues will actually be able to hide in shadows. 
    I also think that being able to stealth when you're already in combat should simply not be possible. It makes absolutely no logical sense, and having this automatic "get out of Hell free" invisibility button makes Rogues into a cowardly low-risk-high-reward class. 

    True.  In some games, it's like all rogues wield the One Ring of Power.  Being able to turn invisible every so often, or actually quite frequently, is an extremely powerful ability.  And yet rogues are given this ability at a very low level.  If rogues absolutely must need to have this ability, then fighters should have the ability to cave someone's head in with one sword or axe swing.  And wizards should be able to burn someone to a crisp with one spell.  Etc.

    EDIT:  We can't actually blame everything on WoW.  EQ shares a lot of the blame by choosing to exclude non-combat abilities.  Non-combat abilities are where a rogue really shines.  Whereas warrior classes are actually the overall heavier damage dealers in P&P RPGs.  Why?  Because warriors are stronger and use heavier weapons that do more damage.  Might be a little slower than daggers (though there's no reason fighters can't use daggers also), but warriors hit things more often than rogues do.  Why?  Because they're better at fighting.  Mages and priests are also more useful or just as useful for their non-combat spells as for their attack and healing spells. 
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Aeander said:
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 

    Right.  Also, the results of PVP battles don't actually change anything in the game world.  And neither do the results of PVE battles for that matter.  I think that's the principal reason for stagnation in MMORPGs.  Because the game worlds are static rather than dynamic, the players are dependent on the developers to provide new content occasionally.  But new content can simply not be designed and released fast enough to keep up with the rate at which the already existing content can be consumed by the vast majority of players.

    As for characters with stealth abilities...

    Rogues should actually need to hit players from behind (backstab) in order to do a lot of damage.  However, finding a spot to stick a blade against a warrior class (fighter, paladin) wearing full plate armor wouldn't be such an easy task. 

    Stealth seems like it was originally a way to portray hiding in shadows.  But now it's become some sort of super magical-type ability.  In original D&D, a thief/rogue would need to successfully hide in shadows and move silently in order to attempt a backstab.  Or at least he or she would need to get behind an opponent in the midst of combat without being noticed.  This has, of course, been way oversimplified in MMORPGs.  Perhaps someday, when more players have powerful computers, rogues will actually be able to hide in shadows. 
    I know we have already had a discussion about DDO, but, I figured I would bring that game up again.

    DDO was made in 2005, and has handled stealth in this manner from the start. If you want to hide in shadows, you need to go into the shadows, and hide, and then sneak around while maintaining being in shadows.

    Yes the game has shadows and lighting since 2005, this should give you an idea how far behind more modern MMO's are these days, like they devolved.
    learis1
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 7,990
    learis1 said:
    The OP is a nice one and lays a good foundation for 3 areas of horizontal progression (for all I know there may be more).

    Here's my take. Simply put, horizontal progression feels like talent building. Rather than raw stat increases, you gain special effects to your abilities and maybe unique stat increases and modifiers and such. 

    The OP layed out cosmetics, skills, and gears as pillars for horizontal progression. He said gear is a toughy and then layed out some possible way of adding horizontal progression to it. However, from what I can tell the gear pillar is basically just working on a similar goal as the skills pillar, which is to provide maximum synergy for your "talent" build. In other words, the goal is to have the modifiers on your gear synergize the most with your skill modifiers.

    There's nothing necessarily wrong with this. As the OP pointed out, it's kinda how Diablo does things (as well as PoE and similar games). In fact it may be the funnest way since it encourages creativity and gives you that "unique" feeling that so many people (myself included) like to feel.

    The main problem historically has been cookie cutter builds. In my opinion, there is absolutely no way to avoid this. The best that can be done is to maximize the amount of viable builds for more variety, and then maximize the minor variations in those builds to suite specific preferences of each player and give a feeling of uniqueness. I think that's where we're at right now... not sure honestly if anything more can even be down outside of literally having players create their own skills from the ground up.



    I disagree that cookie cutter builds in any way undermine the skill system of a game, much less a game with robust build possibilities.

    Quite the opposite. Cookie cutter builds lower the skill floor of the game, making it more broadly accessible, while also ensuring that those who do not wish to participate in the theorycrafting side of the game have options to remain viable. Cookie cutter builds do NOT prevent experimentation, either on a minor level (you tailor a cookie cutter build to your preferences) or a major level (you make your own build).

    And where do you think those cookie cutter builds come from? They come from people who do experiment with the game's build system to its fullest.
    Sovrath
  • learis1learis1 Member UncommonPosts: 169
    Aeander said:
    I disagree that cookie cutter builds in any way undermine the skill system of a game, much less a game with robust build possibilities.

    Quite the opposite. Cookie cutter builds lower the skill floor of the game, making it more broadly accessible, while also ensuring that those who do not wish to participate in the theorycrafting side of the game have options to remain viable. Cookie cutter builds do NOT prevent experimentation, either on a minor level (you tailor a cookie cutter build to your preferences) or a major level (you make your own build).

    And where do you think those cookie cutter builds come from? They come from people who do experiment with the game's build system to its fullest.

    What I meant is specifically with regards to imbalance. At one point or another we've all seen cookie cutter builds in a game become harmful because they are just so overpowered that there becomes no incentive to play numerous other builds; thus they undermine the whole point of the talent system and customization. But with proper balance adjustments, that goes away and a multitude of viable builds are possible.
    Ungood

    Mend and Defend

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    learis1 said:
    Aeander said:
    I disagree that cookie cutter builds in any way undermine the skill system of a game, much less a game with robust build possibilities.

    Quite the opposite. Cookie cutter builds lower the skill floor of the game, making it more broadly accessible, while also ensuring that those who do not wish to participate in the theorycrafting side of the game have options to remain viable. Cookie cutter builds do NOT prevent experimentation, either on a minor level (you tailor a cookie cutter build to your preferences) or a major level (you make your own build).

    And where do you think those cookie cutter builds come from? They come from people who do experiment with the game's build system to its fullest.

    What I meant is specifically with regards to imbalance. At one point or another we've all seen cookie cutter builds in a game become harmful because they are just so overpowered that there becomes no incentive to play numerous other builds; thus they undermine the whole point of the talent system and customization. But with proper balance adjustments, that goes away and a multitude of viable builds are possible.
    Gonna have to agree with you on this one 100%.

    This happens a LOT in DDO that has a huge robust build system with being able to mix classes, traits, feats, and racial boons, as well as weapons and gear, and there is always some new build or FOTM design that takes advantage of some combination of those, and gives it some, quite literally super powered effect.

    One that comes to mind was a few years ago, called "The Big Stick Build", now this one comes to mind because it flat out infected the game where everyone that ran a DPS build in a raid was expected to run this build, and there was a very good reason for it.

    Someone figured out that mixing specific class/race/trait abilities allowed for a build to be able to hit mobs with a quarterstaff (and only a Quarterstaff) almost 4 times faster than any other weapon, now most QS sucked for DPS, which is why they were given speed boons to start with, but when these speed boons stacked up and were coupled with a few of the high DPS raid drop quarterstaffs, this build could very easy do Double to Triple the DPS of any other build out there.

    Obviously it got nerfed after it became overly infectiously popular, but the whole thing is, those kinds of builds can and will exist, and they will continue to exist, because some players spend an exorbitant amount of time gaming the system as opposed to playing it.

    Just saying that I agree with your points.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited April 2020
    Ungood said:
    Aeander said:
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 

    Right.  Also, the results of PVP battles don't actually change anything in the game world.  And neither do the results of PVE battles for that matter.  I think that's the principal reason for stagnation in MMORPGs.  Because the game worlds are static rather than dynamic, the players are dependent on the developers to provide new content occasionally.  But new content can simply not be designed and released fast enough to keep up with the rate at which the already existing content can be consumed by the vast majority of players.

    As for characters with stealth abilities...

    Rogues should actually need to hit players from behind (backstab) in order to do a lot of damage.  However, finding a spot to stick a blade against a warrior class (fighter, paladin) wearing full plate armor wouldn't be such an easy task. 

    Stealth seems like it was originally a way to portray hiding in shadows.  But now it's become some sort of super magical-type ability.  In original D&D, a thief/rogue would need to successfully hide in shadows and move silently in order to attempt a backstab.  Or at least he or she would need to get behind an opponent in the midst of combat without being noticed.  This has, of course, been way oversimplified in MMORPGs.  Perhaps someday, when more players have powerful computers, rogues will actually be able to hide in shadows. 
    I know we have already had a discussion about DDO, but, I figured I would bring that game up again.

    DDO was made in 2005, and has handled stealth in this manner from the start. If you want to hide in shadows, you need to go into the shadows, and hide, and then sneak around while maintaining being in shadows.

    Yes the game has shadows and lighting since 2005, this should give you an idea how far behind more modern MMO's are these days, like they devolved.

    That's cool.  Are the shadows deep enough that other players couldn't see the hiding thief unless they got close ?  I've been playing the game a bit recently, but I still don't really know or remember.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Ungood said:
    Aeander said:
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 

    Right.  Also, the results of PVP battles don't actually change anything in the game world.  And neither do the results of PVE battles for that matter.  I think that's the principal reason for stagnation in MMORPGs.  Because the game worlds are static rather than dynamic, the players are dependent on the developers to provide new content occasionally.  But new content can simply not be designed and released fast enough to keep up with the rate at which the already existing content can be consumed by the vast majority of players.

    As for characters with stealth abilities...

    Rogues should actually need to hit players from behind (backstab) in order to do a lot of damage.  However, finding a spot to stick a blade against a warrior class (fighter, paladin) wearing full plate armor wouldn't be such an easy task. 

    Stealth seems like it was originally a way to portray hiding in shadows.  But now it's become some sort of super magical-type ability.  In original D&D, a thief/rogue would need to successfully hide in shadows and move silently in order to attempt a backstab.  Or at least he or she would need to get behind an opponent in the midst of combat without being noticed.  This has, of course, been way oversimplified in MMORPGs.  Perhaps someday, when more players have powerful computers, rogues will actually be able to hide in shadows. 
    I know we have already had a discussion about DDO, but, I figured I would bring that game up again.

    DDO was made in 2005, and has handled stealth in this manner from the start. If you want to hide in shadows, you need to go into the shadows, and hide, and then sneak around while maintaining being in shadows.

    Yes the game has shadows and lighting since 2005, this should give you an idea how far behind more modern MMO's are these days, like they devolved.

    That's cool.  Are the shadows deep enough that other players couldn't see the hiding thief unless they got close ?  I've been playing the game a bit recently, but I still don't really know or remember.
    There is a spot skill check involved and a search ability to activate to try and find them.

    Again, DDO is not PvP, and the few places you can PvP like the tavern brawl, I think is too well lit to even hide in.. but I am not sure on that one.

    But then again, the easy way to get away from a hidden opponent is stand in a light source.

    Maybe someone that knows that better could answer that one.

    I will say this, WH40KEC, handles stealth better than a lot of other games as well,  as if you are looking directly at a stealthed unit (Which is using a camouflage field like in the Movie Predator) you can spot them, or if you use a scope you can see them. They also cannot hide while engaged.

    Doesn't stop them from backstabbing little eldar pricks tho.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Aeander said:
    Ungood said:
    I never believed that PvE and PvP mixed well.

    In fact, I don't really believe there is much room for PvP in RPG or MMO's for that matter, as all too often it just gunks up the whole system.

    PvP really belongs and shines like a MFer in Arena games.

    PVP has not yet worked well in MMORPGs due to out of control vertical progression and the heavy reliance on gear to make player characters more powerful.  Then players and game designers* somehow get the idea that balancing classes will fix this.  Tch.  It's practically impossible to balance classes that have so many different skills and abilities and ways of combining them.  It's stupid.  If you want balance in MMORPG PVP, then you need to focus on building balanced teams/parties, not balanced classes. 

    (*Or maybe the designers don't really believe they can balance the classes, they just humor the players who complain and pretend to keep trying.)

    However, in the case of games with good & evil factions like say EQ2 for example, the Shadow Knight and the Paladin should be of about equal strength.  The Ranger and the Assassin should also be equal.  Basically, the good guys should not have an advantage over the bad guys and vice versa.
    It doesn't help that MMOs simply love to add classes that are inherently overpowered (or at least incredibly frustrating to fight), such as stealth characters.


    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 

    Right.  Also, the results of PVP battles don't actually change anything in the game world.  And neither do the results of PVE battles for that matter.  I think that's the principal reason for stagnation in MMORPGs.  Because the game worlds are static rather than dynamic, the players are dependent on the developers to provide new content occasionally.  But new content can simply not be designed and released fast enough to keep up with the rate at which the already existing content can be consumed by the vast majority of players.

    As for characters with stealth abilities...

    Rogues should actually need to hit players from behind (backstab) in order to do a lot of damage.  However, finding a spot to stick a blade against a warrior class (fighter, paladin) wearing full plate armor wouldn't be such an easy task. 

    Stealth seems like it was originally a way to portray hiding in shadows.  But now it's become some sort of super magical-type ability.  In original D&D, a thief/rogue would need to successfully hide in shadows and move silently in order to attempt a backstab.  Or at least he or she would need to get behind an opponent in the midst of combat without being noticed.  This has, of course, been way oversimplified in MMORPGs.  Perhaps someday, when more players have powerful computers, rogues will actually be able to hide in shadows. 
    I know we have already had a discussion about DDO, but, I figured I would bring that game up again.

    DDO was made in 2005, and has handled stealth in this manner from the start. If you want to hide in shadows, you need to go into the shadows, and hide, and then sneak around while maintaining being in shadows.

    Yes the game has shadows and lighting since 2005, this should give you an idea how far behind more modern MMO's are these days, like they devolved.

    That's cool.  Are the shadows deep enough that other players couldn't see the hiding thief unless they got close ?  I've been playing the game a bit recently, but I still don't really know or remember.
    There is a spot skill check involved and a search ability to activate to try and find them.

    Again, DDO is not PvP, and the few places you can PvP like the tavern brawl, I think is too well lit to even hide in.. but I am not sure on that one.

    But then again, the easy way to get away from a hidden opponent is stand in a light source.

    Maybe someone that knows that better could answer that one.

    I will say this, WH40KEC, handles stealth better than a lot of other games as well,  as if you are looking directly at a stealthed unit (Which is using a camouflage field like in the Movie Predator) you can spot them, or if you use a scope you can see them. They also cannot hide while engaged.

    Doesn't stop them from backstabbing little eldar pricks tho.


    Oh, so that's how it works.  Cool.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Gamer54321Gamer54321 Member UncommonPosts: 452
    edited April 2020
    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 
    I want to point out that you are contradiction yourself. You say balance is not the objective (and I would agree), but then you claim that this still is balance, when game devs probably just CHANGE stuff around, presumably making some things seem OP or becoming some kind of flavor of the month gimmick.
    Ancient_Exile
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 
    I want to point out that you are contradiction yourself. You say balance is not the objective (and I would agree), but then you claim that this still is balance, when game devs probably just CHANGE stuff around, presumably making some things seem OP or becoming some kind of flavor of the month gimmick.
    I had a combat system that was based on randomness. You obtained cards for abilities dropped by NPCs that did those abilities. Random stats though but you got the animation.  You could also mutate those abilities to change over time as well.  I wonder how a player base would respond to that.  
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 
    I want to point out that you are contradiction yourself. You say balance is not the objective (and I would agree), but then you claim that this still is balance, when game devs probably just CHANGE stuff around, presumably making some things seem OP or becoming some kind of flavor of the month gimmick.
    I had a combat system that was based on randomness. You obtained cards for abilities dropped by NPCs that did those abilities. Random stats though but you got the animation.  You could also mutate those abilities to change over time as well.  I wonder how a player base would respond to that.  
    Either Love it or lose their shit?
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Ungood said:
    But balance was never the objective. If a game were ever perfectly balanced, it would stagnate. No, they perform balance updates with the intention of changing which characters and classes are unbalanced. Changing metagames keep players invested. 
    I want to point out that you are contradiction yourself. You say balance is not the objective (and I would agree), but then you claim that this still is balance, when game devs probably just CHANGE stuff around, presumably making some things seem OP or becoming some kind of flavor of the month gimmick.
    I had a combat system that was based on randomness. You obtained cards for abilities dropped by NPCs that did those abilities. Random stats though but you got the animation.  You could also mutate those abilities to change over time as well.  I wonder how a player base would respond to that.  
    Either Love it or lose their shit?
    I am sure there would be a lot of vocal whining but would the majority enjoy it I am not sure.
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