I Sort of Miss the Old Arguments

Amathe · April 2020

Hot topics in this forum used to be things like whether there should be fast travel, whether there should be a mini-map, how stiff the death penalty should be, how slow the progression, and so on. And yes, we beat those things to death. Admitted.

But at least then we talked about what the game is or should be, as opposed to now, when all there is to talk about seemingly is whether the game will finish and release in any form. I wish we could go back to assuming there will be a game, and our aspirations for it.

Albatroes · April 2020

Amathe said:

Hot topics in this forum used to be things like whether there should be fast travel, whether there should be a mini-map, how stiff the death penalty should be, how slow the progression, and so on. And yes, we beat those things to death. Admitted.

But at least then we talked about what the game is or should be, as opposed to now, when all there is to talk about seemingly is whether the game will finish and release in any form. I wish we could go back to assuming there will be a game, and our aspirations for it.

Pantheon does have something going for it more so than a lot of other KS games since they've been showing the world for at least a couple of years now. When it came to CoE, what exactly were they ever showing people...? If anything, the stuff they showed off since KS looked like the project was regressing. Some people are trying to defend Ashes now since they showed like a few hours of alpha footage....but after how long? Crowfall, Pantheon, Saga have been showing off stuff for years.....My point is, if one of these groups doesn't mind SHOWING you the stuff they are TALKING about instead of just always TALKING about it, then they have the best chance hitting a finish line. Ashes showing us essentially one map after all this time really shouldn't be getting people's pants wet.

cheyane · April 2020

Amathe said:

Hot topics in this forum used to be things like whether there should be fast travel, whether there should be a mini-map, how stiff the death penalty should be, how slow the progression, and so on. And yes, we beat those things to death. Admitted.

But at least then we talked about what the game is or should be, as opposed to now, when all there is to talk about seemingly is whether the game will finish and release in any form. I wish we could go back to assuming there will be a game, and our aspirations for it.

I understand completely what you're getting at. I do too.

Mendel · April 2020

I love new, especially in games. The willingness to experiment, to give the customer new and different experiences when playing a game is a worthy goal.

Pantheon appears to have high plans to change the way we think of MMORPGs, but has been reluctant to demonstrate any of these wonderful new systems in action. They have talked a good game, but haven't coded that good game (yet). Maybe they will be able to produce something truly unique and interesting, but what I've seen to date could just be "throwing the thesaurus at a problem". Is there a long term commitment to mechanics like Perception past the initial release, especially if it proves to be costly to implement?

Right now, these new systems seem to be rife for being the first to end up on the cutting room floor when costs get tough. Only time (and VR's willingness to take chances) will tell.

Raidan_EQ · April 2020

I enjoyed those discussions as well, but they have been beat to death. The discussions will resume once (if) the NDA is lifted and the systems being tested that were previously discussed/argued can be hashed out in detail. At this point, its only spinning wheels both here and on the OF.

I do still assume there will be a game, it’s just not on the timeline I’d like it to be on and most everyone who was/is passionate about Pantheon has drawn their developmental lines in the sand many times over already. Once there’s more to discuss, the quality will pick back up.

Kyleran · April 2020

Until they start letting people get in and test the game on a regular basis it's all just smoke and mirrors.

CF, SC, CU, DU, and SoL are miles above Pantheon because of this difference.

Utinni · April 2020

This site moved from gaming topics to financial statement debates of companies 8-10 years ago. Most real conversations about gaming take place on discord now.

Mackaveli44 · April 2020

DMKano said:

I think most of what could have been discussed is largely been done already.

I feel that most people's attention is less on games, there is a lot more anxiety about the immediate future of the growing pandemic - and the mass casualties that are coming (June/July gonna be grim in US when we start dealing with 100s of thousands of dead) - mass cremations/mass burials anyone?

Or massive unemployment that's on the horizon?

I think that no matter how much people try escapism with games, netflix etc... the upcoming months are going to be a rude awakening for millions of people

June, July, and August should help slow the transmission cause of heat. I don't think we'll see 100s of thousands of deaths. West coast is already flattening the curve and slowing things down. Bit dramatic much?

Iselin · April 2020

Mackaveli44 said:

DMKano said:

I think most of what could have been discussed is largely been done already.

I feel that most people's attention is less on games, there is a lot more anxiety about the immediate future of the growing pandemic - and the mass casualties that are coming (June/July gonna be grim in US when we start dealing with 100s of thousands of dead) - mass cremations/mass burials anyone?

Or massive unemployment that's on the horizon?

I think that no matter how much people try escapism with games, netflix etc... the upcoming months are going to be a rude awakening for millions of people

June, July, and August should help slow the transmission cause of heat. I don't think we'll see 100s of thousands of deaths. West coast is already flattening the curve and slowing things down. Bit dramatic much?

Yeah that's the optimistic take but we don't know for sure what effect summer will have. We hope it's like the common flu that is seasonal and that will help slow it down but his thing is widespread enough that we don't know what will happen after the summer if the hot summer months do help like we hope they will.

Widespread vaccination is the only thing that will truly end this and we're a ways away from that.

There is a severe economic hit already that's only going to get worse before it gets better.

delete5230 · April 2020

The common flu kills millions of senior citizens in nursing homes each year with lung complications. , Yet it's un spoken.

I'm not trying to minimize anything, it's just something to keep in mind on what they want to stress something over another. However the scales are tipping in a bad way

Utinni · April 2020

delete5230 said:

The common flu kills millions of senior citizens in nursing homes each year with lung complications. , Yet it's un spoken.

I'm not trying to minimize anything, it's just something to keep in mind on what they want to stress something over another. However the scales are tipping in a bad way

The flu kills less than 500,000 a year worlwide. Not sure where you got millions but by seeing your attempt to dilute the seriousness of the virus we currently face I'm gonna assume you don't really bother yourself with facts.

Wizardry · April 2020

I am not so much on the fence about how it SHOULD be but more about what i know devs will do,can pull off,are capable of.

An example,i don' want pvp in a mmorpg because i KNOW it won't work and i know it will ruin PVE has at taking it's best form.So i am not saying i don't like pvp period,it just has to be done right and mmorpg devs do not come even remotely close.

Another example,i don't mind quests but don't fill the game with a few thousand pointless quests just to say you have content.

Yet another,i have no problem with experience as long as it is done in a way that makes sense,not too much to ask is it?Giving xp to a character for moving from point a to B does not make sense.Just because you discover a new area does not warrant being a more experienced Warrior or Magician.If you want to reward players for discovery,ok but that should be an entirely different mechanic/system and NOT related to being a better Warrior unless of course the quest is directly related to as such.

This is what i do when i enter games,i begin looking at everything and more often than not i am shaking my head thinking wtf were these people thinking.

Another example ARPG type combat,i cannot stand it,you will NEVER see someone spinning like a top shooting flames out 360 degrees,ok it looks stupid.Somesaults,we are not going to do somersaults in battle,if we did it would be maybe once in a blue moon and not every few seconds.

There is just so much in game design makes me think the designers,system teams have played too many awful games and are trying to throw them at us,like the "seasons" idea as another example.We have "seasons" in real life,things don't stop at the end of one,we don't lose everything we have it is merely a rolling over of the clock,nothing more.

Wizardry · April 2020

More examples of dumb ass developers...

WOW incoming...Blizzard has dumb asses working for them.

WHY would you create an entire game based on solo then expect players to perform in a group under the most difficult situations?
WHY would you create and often i hear bragging about a so called seamless or open world then stick the only content that matters in instances?

I already touched on how stupid giving xp is to quests that are non related to your combat character.

Other games...AUTOMATED game play...stupid,ok fire those people making ideas like that.The purpose of PLAYING a game is to >>>>PLAY the game and not have it play itself.

Another peeve...

I have no problem with types of assets,like a Warehouse for example.It is a cheap to make asset but if the game design warrants it fine no problem.Don't start the game with me in some warehouse where there is no reason at all why i am there.When i start a game i should be in my home or in my town/village/city.
When i see LAZY game design where the only reason for me to be at my point of entry is to see npc's with yellow marker over their head i want to bitch slap that system designer.

I do NOT ever nor should i ever see a yellow marker over a npc head.If the players are too lazy or don't want to role play in a game,why are they playing rpg's?You should be conversing with npc's to find out what they are all about,it shouldn't be an auto click to get a quest,ok no yellow icon i won't click that guy.

Wizardry · April 2020

The ONLY reason i began following Pantheon was because using BRAD's words,he said he wanted to make a game that MADE SENSE.When i saw those words i was like,oh my god..FINALLY someone with a clue.I was extremely excited to hear this but of course over the years i know better than to get my hopes up.

None the less,i have not lost hope for Pantheon but at the same time i am not holding my breath.

Tanist · April 2020

Pantheon is main-stream. Read the forums, see the mood, watch the decisions on mechanics that you can see in the streams.

Those mechanics discussions are shut down fast now on the Pantheon site (most of the old school players on that forum no longer post, or were banned because off the tantrums from the main-stream players) and here, all they do is devolve into main-streamers throwing tantrums and attacking.

The reality is, most don't care about game play mechanics, they care about getting their special little cheats to continue on the "convenience" of play they like in the mainstream games.

Pantheon once had a focus on a very specific style of game, now it is just another "new evolution" of "community gaming" that has no understanding or concept of what EQ was.

Watch the people who claim they want meaningful content in travel, death penalty, etc...

They say they want such, but then when pressed on the details, they turn 180 and come up with excuses as to why those things are detrimental to the game.

Pantheon has become a joke, as is most of its fan base now.

Tanist · April 2020

Utinni said:

delete5230 said:

The common flu kills millions of senior citizens in nursing homes each year with lung complications. , Yet it's un spoken.

I'm not trying to minimize anything, it's just something to keep in mind on what they want to stress something over another. However the scales are tipping in a bad way

The flu kills less than 500,000 a year worlwide. Not sure where you got millions but by seeing your attempt to dilute the seriousness of the virus we currently face I'm gonna assume you don't really bother yourself with facts.

The math doesn't add up on a lot of things and there are many questions as to actual numbers as well as comparing to other types of things that cause death each year.

Fauci claimed that around 50% of those infected are asymptomatic. The problem with this is that it means a LOT of people likely contract the virus, but have no idea they even have it. This explains the fast and wide spreading of it with difficulty in controlling it, but... it also shows that there are likely far more cases than we have documented. When taking this into account, the death rate percentage drops quite a bit.

There were two research studies recently out that estimated the death rate percentage to infections was over estimated by quite a large margin. That is, the WHOs estimates are claiming 1.38%+, but these are confirmed cases only. when accounting for how this virus works, asymptomatic percentage and its fast spread, their estimates put the death rate down to around 0.66%, still much higher than the flu (which is about 0.1%), but not the insane numbers predicted previously.

Also, when evaluating the age groups concerned, the highest risk group was 80+ which was sitting around 7.8%. The age group of 40 and below showed a death rate around 0.16% (remember the flu is .1%) and age groups 9 and under show a death rate of 0.00161%. This seems to fall in line with what is happening as if you look closely at the deaths related to this, most are with very old people AND often those with previous health conditions. The reports on middle age and younger deaths are being focused on, but are not statistically supported when evaluating the data.

There is also a very common problem being found in the reporting of cases. For instance, it was found that in Italy, they were reporting such a large number of deaths due to the fact that deaths not related to the illness were still being reported as the cause, which bolstered the numbers. The reasoning given (when families asked why they had put COVID-19 on the death certificate when the person had died from a heart attack) was that by over reporting, it gave precedence to getting more resources to the specific hospitals and areas. This is not an uncommon practice, I have personally seen death certificates falsely declared by some doctors to push resources to certain things (listing cancer as a cause when it was not the cause).

Lastly, I am a bit leery when it concerns Fauci and his predictions, as he has been wrong in the past several outbreaks by a very significant amount. I understand his caution in the numbers, but his track record is way off base.

At the end of the day, when you consider the numerous causes of death by various other diseases, accidents, etc... I honestly think this is being overblown and people are overacting. Caution is good, but tanking world economies for something that has less deaths than many things people don't even bat an eye at normally, is I think a bit irresponsible.

Oh, an just to put it into perspective.

WHO estimates around 1 million deaths each year due to malaria with 3.3 billion (almost half the worlds population) people at risk each year.

How many of you even worried about that in the past?

I could go on listing numerous dangers you face each day which are much more likely to kill you...

So why is this so scary?

My guess...

Ignorance + politics + fear = panic

Vaross · April 2020

Please remain on topic, there are other threads in other parts of the forum for discussing off topic things.

Kyleran · April 2020

Vaross said:

Please remain on topic, there are other threads in other parts of the forum for discussing off topic things.

WOW, now there's a name from the dark past, where you been hiding at?

Keep the thread on topic, you really have been gone for a long time.

Let's see if I recall how...

Pantheon still going with the no map idea, if so, total non starter for me.

I don't need exclamation points and dotted lines, but I like knowing where the hell I am in relationship to the world.

Remali · April 2020

I think its only natural after so many years for ks mmos to develop so little at least from what we can see that the topic of the posts has changed from aspects of the games to if those games will actually launch ..and in what form if they do

Amathe · April 2020

Speaking just for me (the OP), my enjoyment of this particular sub forum was never just about Pantheon. It has always been the spirited discussions of the kind of gaming issues that someone who might want to play a game like Pantheon cares about. Where else, for example, can you see 20 page threads about in game maps? That sort of thing. If the game flops, it flops. I would miss this forum and its dialogues more than the game itself.

delete5230 · April 2020

Amathe said:

Speaking just for me (the OP), my enjoyment of this particular sub forum was never just about Pantheon. It has always been the spirited discussions of the kind of gaming issues that someone who might want to play a game like Pantheon cares about. Where else, for example, can you see 20 page threads about in game maps? That sort of thing. If the game flops, it flops. I would miss this forum and its dialogues more than the game itself.

I'll say your OP got to me,
I'm seriously dropping my anger and hope for the best.

Maybe shortly down the road will have good indicaters the game is advancing. Being the ass hole I am and bashing developers, I also know they are genius in a many other ways........ They maybe the type to hold back NDA stuff at all cost to give us the most impact, and a great game, at the risk of themselves looking temporary bad during the process.

Last week I got tricked by the April fools joke about it being released..... In the back of my mind, their the type of developer that would go from seeming not started > done....... That's why I got tricked.

BruceYee · April 2020

We could have those conversations back then because the specifics about the game development wasn't some shrouded mystery like with these crowdfunded games. Everyone could discuss game features because we ACTUALLY knew what the heck the game features were down to the tiny details cause there was accountability with publishers wanting to present the best product to the public to boost future sales.

These crowdfunded jokers just throw around ideas and concepts that they constantly change to keep up illusions like they are working on stuff when in reality they created a profitable racket just collecting money from gullible mmo gamers desperately seeking a new home.

There needs to be WAY more transparency straight across the board with EVERY crowdfunded MMO I'm talking down to having EVERY single dev with a picture on their website be a mandatory practice like with architecture. They can collect millions of dollars from us but can't show us faces or tell us the names of actual people working on the project and what they are doing? They seem to have no problem creating countdown timers to funding waves or adding items to sell in their store for their pre-alpha games...

In the case of Pantheon I want to know the structure of that company and if Brad left a succesion plan and what it is if there was one. Does his family own it? Did it become a co-op? Is it just a few part-time devs working remotely slapping together what they can when they have free time? The absence of the information leads to speculation and doubt.

delete5230 · April 2020

BruceYee said:

We could have those conversations back then because the specifics about the game development wasn't some shrouded mystery like with these crowdfunded games. Everyone could discuss game features because we ACTUALLY knew what the heck the game features were down to the tiny details cause there was accountability with publishers wanting to present the best product to the public to boost future sales.
These crowdfunded jokers just throw around ideas and concepts that they constantly change to keep up illusions like they are working on stuff when in reality they created a profitable racket just collecting money from gullible mmo gamers desperately seeking a new home.

There needs to be WAY more transparency straight across the board with EVERY crowdfunded MMO I'm talking down to having EVERY single dev with a picture on their website be a mandatory practice like with architecture. They can collect millions of dollars from us but can't show us faces or tell us the names of actual people working on the project and what they are doing? They seem to have no problem creating countdown timers to funding waves or adding items to sell in their store for their pre-alpha games...

In the case of Pantheon I want to know the structure of that company and if Brad left a succesion plan and what it is if there was one. Does his family own it? Did it become a co-op? Is it just a few part-time devs working remotely slapping together what they can when they have free time? The absence of the information leads to speculation and doubt.

I think you have a good point,

<quote>

These crowdfunded jokers just throw around ideas and concepts that they constantly change to keep up illusions like they are working on stuff when in reality they created a profitable racket just collecting money from gullible mmo gamers desperately seeking a new home.

This is very powerful, because this is what most do. "They make shit up" in the early stages and "later retract after they gain the hype".

Important example and my opinion:

Ashes of Creation,
Ashes of Creation’s foundational node system means nearly the entirety of the world is built by player choice and actions! No two player experiences will feel the same - every server ebbs and flows with its own unique story and character all based on player choice... I clam Bull Shit !

The entire premises is far greater that possible.
An mmorpg ?... impossible !

IF.....IF.... They somehow pull it off, the game will be a bug infested mess that's filled with future promises that never materialize.

Developers seem to struggle to give the most basic features, then add a few variations just to make uniqueness. Sure it's 2020, but we can all agree its a struggle nun the less.

Wizardry · April 2020

First of all bugs are just bad coding,sloppy work,not checking their work,so all around bad production.Creating a unique feature or deep system designs has NOTHING to do with bugs,err i mean bad coding,bad mapping,

The problem to the many queries i am reading is that 99% of the developers are SMALL,lack funding,lack assets,lack manpower.
So of course they are going to struggle with immersion,deep systems,features.
Most dev teams have people experienced in the field ,they know the simple ideas behind a mmorpg design.

So these puny teams aim for that simple road so everyone has an easier time with their job.

Like if i told my combat team i want a system similar to FFXI's Renkai system,they would look at me and go WTF are you talking about.It would take forever to get them on the road to where i want the systems to go,FOREVER.

Tell that team to make a Wow clone and they likely pull it of in their sleep...simple,easy.

If you told the team to put in some "dodging" guess what you are going to get?Somersaults.

The people on these teams are pretty much CLUELESS to anything out side of a simple EQ or Wow clone design.Put some markers over npc heads,give some quests,gain xp,tie the best gear to Raid bosses,there we have a game !!

Yeah looks like every other game but yeah you have a game and to me i say SO WHAT.I want something INTERESTING,different,unique without getting into the stupid area.

Kyleran · April 2020

BruceYee said:

... I'm talking down to having EVERY single dev with a picture on their website be a mandatory practice like with architecture. They can collect millions of dollars from us but can't show us faces or tell us the names of actual people working on the project and what they are doing?...

Think about this....some gamers be crazy, right? People are posting photos reported to be Jeremy's home and car, putting whoever owns both and their families in actual danger.

There have been countless reports of death threats against public game dev figures, (including Jeremy) developers relentlessly stalked for their political views, losing their jobs sometimes in the process.

While transparency is great and all, theres a reason we can't have nice things, including knowing the full "truth," which Jack probably best explained.

delete5230 · April 2020

Robokapp said:

someone should poll the age of the forumgoers...I'm starting to feel like I'm in the retirement home telling stories of the Great War...

About a year ago I was telling the wife's daughters boyfriend a story, he a millennial by the way. I started the story with back in 1983. To this day he has to start every conversation with back in 1983 just to bust my balls..... Should I punch him in the face ?

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I Sort of Miss the Old Arguments

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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I Sort of Miss the Old Arguments

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV