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Turn up difficulty on most, BINGO we have our mmorpg back.

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,313
      I was just giving insight on how to make LOTRO a more challenging and immersive experience for those who may be interested..

       Not responding to you, as you are really not worthy of a response in general ..

       This thread being the latest in a history of shit
    Po_gg
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    Scorchien said:
      I was just giving insight on how to make LOTRO a more challenging and immersive experience for those who may be interested..

       Not responding to you, as you are really not worthy of a response in general ..

       This thread being the latest in a history of shit
    Don't care.
    mmolou
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 12,889
    Calm down guys, don't let cabin fever get to you. Play a game, they are keeping me sane. :)
    delete5230

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,516
    edited March 28
    I could make ANY game more immersive,challenging but it is not as simple as that.Most games would need a ground up overhaul to make them better.A perfect example for me was FFXIV,the basic core design is imo bad and would never improve over time because it would have to be overhauled.So i quit playing after 6 months invested.

    Another game sometimes brought up is PG,if after 7/8 years the first zone still looks like 1990 the game is NEVER getting any better.Just using the term ALPHA or pre alpha is not an excuse i buy into.

    Now there is always going to be an argument to weather or not a game is already fine...good..above average.If you find your game to already be very satisfying then yes i could improve that game fairly easily,especially if the studio is a decent sized studio and not 2-3 guys working from their basement on the weekends.

    The way you do it is with "events"however not too often do devs put enough effort into their  events.Not just any old event ,like some stupid jump puzzle map,i lose it when i see crap like that.I want to see events that tie into the immersion of the game world.An easy example would be RIFTS inside of the game Rift.A very cool idea on paper but done like an amateurish studio.Yet again inside of Rift "invasions"again a great idea on paper but looked like they spent a few days implementing it at most,a LAZY effort.

    Difficulty...lol,sorry but that is NOT the answer.Devs can turn up difficulty settings easily,would take them but one day.Good scripting makes a game better,far more valuable than simple the difficulty settings.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,497
    Po_gg said:
    I didn't play LoTRO so I don't know what you are talking about here.
    But I'm generally against too heavy of a system for interdependence. 
    I do see where this can be a boon, though. I'm thinking in terms of special attacks, where one players performs one, which sets up another player to do a different Special for great effect. That requires some predetermined teamwork, forming a buddy system, that I think would be marvelous. 
    It ain't a "too heavy" interdependence, only what you've described too :)
    Minstrels have that very same skill, on solo play it's nearly useless, but in a fellowship it boosts the "staple" skill of the other players, like guardians get a block, hunters focus, champ/captain the enemy defeat trigger, etc., so they can use their conditional skills.


    FM is similar to the follow-up attack idea too. Players one by one pick a type of move, and their picks form a pattern, which "builds up" into the maneuver, be it simply a huge damage, or a party-wide heal, etc. 
    It's a mechanic requires predetermined teamwork, and coordination, since every pattern has a different outcome. It doesn't mean you can "fail" an FM, it's always useful, even with random or missed picks.
    But when the fellowship is good with tactics, can coordinate and cooperate, it can make the battle so much smoother.
    (FM has an extensive wiki page and an own tab in the game too. Pretty large system, unfortunately the power creep and the level cap increases took the wind from its sail, somewhat.)


    As for the list, some things are there as well. Cooks provided class-specific boosts (sadly many of those were removed, but they still can make better strings for the minstrel instruments), burglars can pick pockets, in a few dungeons they can operate mechanics...

    Actually Neverwinter (and DDO) used that idea much better, at least at start. Later it was toned down, and Mod 16 made it almost fully insignificant. But at launch the trap detection and disarming was a really useful feature of thieves, helped the party a lot.

    My good friend and I played LoTRO about two years back, 

    "The combat was dumb down it was a JOKE more than any other" 

    I played two weeks he tried for two and he admitted it sucked especially when we grouped it was apparent.

    This game reeks of simple. 

    It's worst case don't let anyone tell you diffident !...... What a bad OP Topic to promote this game !

    I can't speak to what LotRO's combat is like these days. I played for the first 6 years of the game's lifecycle and it was still really deep and challenging back then. I've yet to play a game with more depth in its combat system.


    But there are a few things worth noting, that kind of relates to your OP.


    1) Class interdependence usually means that soloing goes to extremes: it's either really easy (so that everyone can do it without relying on other classes) or really hard (hardly anyone can do it because they need others).

    LotRO took the easy route: soloing in that game was really easy so as not to impede player progression. Given that many classes had skills that were only useful in groups, playing solo was just easy for just about everyone. So, if you only played for 2 weeks 2 years ago, firstly you'll have been playing with a dumbed down system compared to the old days, but also it's unlikely you'll have experienced much that shows the best of the system.


    2) Depth requires difficulty. Depth is a measure of how hard it is to make the decision on what to do next. In order for the decision to be hard, you must have plenty to choose from and the impact of that choice must be meaningful.

    In other words, if you are doing easy content, the choice of what skill to use next is pretty irrelevant as you will probably win regardless of what you pick.

    So, if you only played for 2 weeks, and you only played 2 years ago when most of teh difficult content had been removed from the game, then chances are the combat system would have seemed really dumb......because it is.......when its easy.




    To give any example of this in action, I have recently returned to WAR: RoR. In PvE, the combat system comes off as really shallow - I have tons of skills but in PvE, its just a really long rotation with very little decision making, very shallow and bloated.

    But, in PvP, that all changes and the system has depth. Suddenly my choices have a very large impact, because all the CC is suddenly very useful and impactful, my taunts are now important, rather than a rotation. Who I guard and where I move are now moment-to-moment decisions, instead of just guarding someone at the start of the fight and then forgetting about it.

    It is the difficulty of PvP that brings out the depth of the system.
    Po_gg
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,335
    edited March 28
    You can't make the beginning part of the mmorpg difficult.  Else kids or people with bad hand eye coordination can't play.  

    Every mmorpg have difficult content, usually it is in the end.  Which makes it optional.  
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    AAAMEOW said:
    MMORPG are designed so every people can do it, hence why it is so easy.

    But it is also designed so people can't finish it, so you actually have hard content till the end to slow down people's progress.
    Much of this is true but like I say REALLY !

    Because of my example of little 4 year old Johnny wants to play, millions and millions of regular of  age players looking to play a diverse game of PvP, PvE, co-opp, character advancement, meaningful crafting healing and tanking all this.... because little Johnny wants to play too ? 

    I mentioned how in my years on Voice chat, I've witnessed a lot of Juvenal chatter from 4 years olds.  When it comes down to playing it's surprising how good they really are, and enjoy their time spent. 


    Seems the motivation of "easy" is still somewhat of a mystery.

    Ease of balance (lazy). 
    Helps hide the fact games have low amount of content. 
    Take your pick, 
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    AAAMEOW said:
    You can't make the beginning part of the mmorpg difficult.  Else kids or people with bad hand eye coordination can't play.  

    Every mmorpg have difficult content, usually it is in the end.  Which makes it optional.  

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,998
    edited March 29
    I'm not seeing much of a market for "really difficult" MMOs/MMORPGs.

    In FO76 there is a top end raid called Vault 94, which I'm told takes a well geared and experienced team about a month of clears in order to obtain a full set of unique cosmetic gear from them.

    In six months of steady play time, I've never seen anyone actually run it.  I guess when first released there was interest, even seen a few higher levels wearing the gear sets, but it is dead today.  In fact, if you can find someone selling the sets they are practically priceless.

    Lots of veterans returning for the expansion, never seen so many new level 500 plus, nor as many hacked weapons (splitter mod) which was corrected at some point, but they were never taken away.

    So now I go to events where level 48 players are mowing down everything in seconds, even Queens drop in a minute when assaulted by a splitter hacked automatic grenade launcher.

    Thing is, these people seem to love the easy mode game play their hacks afford them, yet even with such over powered guns, they still won't run vault 94, just not worth the bother I guess. 

    Most gamers are sissies these days...no amount of "force" will change them.

    Ungood

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,335
    AAAMEOW said:
    MMORPG are designed so every people can do it, hence why it is so easy.

    But it is also designed so people can't finish it, so you actually have hard content till the end to slow down people's progress.
    Much of this is true but like I say REALLY !

    Because of my example of little 4 year old Johnny wants to play, millions and millions of regular of  age players looking to play a diverse game of PvP, PvE, co-opp, character advancement, meaningful crafting healing and tanking all this.... because little Johnny wants to play too ? 




    It's not that there isn't difficult content.  You just don't want to waste your life doing the easy content just so you can get to play the difficult content.

    Quite honestly you can spend thousands of hours doing just one thing in mmorpg, either it is trying to master dungeons or doing competitive pvp, which never is that easy.  So calling mmorpg lack of content depend on how you look at it.

    Not to mention, you call it easy content, many people call it grinding.  And the difficulty of grinding is do it fast and efficiently.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,079
    this debate in this thread shares shows a theory i have that i want to make a seperate thread on to not go off topic here

    image

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    this debate in this thread shares shows a theory i have that i want to make a seperate thread on to not go off topic here
    By all means start another one if you have something close and similar on your mind.

    I'm actually thinking of starting one talking about how easy game play voids all abilities useless and the same with crafting. The only reason I haven't is because I'v been making too many topics lately and people hate me.

    But if you have something on your mind, by all means say it.  Were all looking for any topic.  Well, as long as it's not coming from me :)
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,470
    I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,816
    I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
    In EQ you were just a person. In other MMOs everyone is a hero. 
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
    WOW, I'm floored,
    I feel the same exact way but never actually put words to thought.  It's like your reading my mind, and I'm sure its the same for many of us.



    In fact for something new to search I've been watching this guy's videos on how to play PnP D&D.   Never did so I find them interesting.


    One of his first videos he plays both the dungeon master and player at the same time.

    He is doing it single player but he has to go off in the wilderness and fight a strong ORC in a cave to save the town.

    I'm finding i would like to find a local D&D club, and start a new hobby.  That's if I live, I have the most important doctors appointment of my life this up coming Wednesday. 
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,113
    I have a question , what do you consided as "difficulty" ?
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    iixviiiix said:
    I have a question , what do you consided as "difficulty" ?
    How can this not be apparent to everyone. 

    When you play ANY MMORPG.  From level 1-60 you can round up an entire zone and kill everything and anything solo......
    -No exaggeration !!!   
    -One button mass murder !!

    Could you pleas give an example of "difficulty" of any other type I may otherwise mean ?



    After all, how could difficulty not be in the players face one meaning.
    cameltosismmolou
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,113
    iixviiiix said:
    I have a question , what do you consided as "difficulty" ?
    How can this not be apparent to everyone. 

    When you play ANY MMORPG.  From level 1-60 you can round up an entire zone and kill everything and anything solo......
    -No exaggeration !!!   
    -One button mass murder !!

    Could you pleas give an example of "difficulty" of any other type I may otherwise mean ?



    After all, how could difficulty not be in the players face one meaning.
    My question is what do you consided as "difficulty" and wasn't what you consided as "easy"
    For example , to make a game difficulty  , "double enemy stats" or "raise number of enemies" or "ememies should be smart like PVP" or ect ...



  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    edited March 29
    iixviiiix said:
    iixviiiix said:
    I have a question , what do you consided as "difficulty" ?
    How can this not be apparent to everyone. 

    When you play ANY MMORPG.  From level 1-60 you can round up an entire zone and kill everything and anything solo......
    -No exaggeration !!!   
    -One button mass murder !!

    Could you pleas give an example of "difficulty" of any other type I may otherwise mean ?



    After all, how could difficulty not be in the players face one meaning.
    My question is what do you consided as "difficulty" and wasn't what you consided as "easy"
    For example , to make a game difficulty  , "double enemy stats" or "raise number of enemies" or "ememies should be smart like PVP" or ect ...



    My question back is how does any of this matter with one shot one kill, infact worst 1 shot kill all. 

    Trying to get into percent damage is unimportant if everything is dead. It goes beck to many videos of peoples display their power by killing 40 as pose to 30...... that to me is maximum raw damage....... It reaches a level that nothing matters. 

      

    In other words it's so far off the charts to kill something X40, you have to develop a method to set a baseline to conduct the experiment example gather 40, to register your damage meter.


     With all do respect, what good is it to add a better gear to change kill 30>31 or a better weapon to go from 31>32, or that new ability from 32>33, when your dealing with 30 on up to 40s....... Damage is off the charts, and an experiment is simply for fun or personal knowledge to prove improved character makes a difference at all. 
    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • mmoloummolou Member UncommonPosts: 241
    edited March 29
    iixviiiix said:
    I have a question , what do you consided as "difficulty" ?
    How can this not be apparent to everyone. 

    When you play ANY MMORPG.  From level 1-60 you can round up an entire zone and kill everything and anything solo......
    -No exaggeration !!!   
    -One button mass murder !!

    Could you pleas give an example of "difficulty" of any other type I may otherwise mean ?



    After all, how could difficulty not be in the players face one meaning.
    Bullshit.

    Until you provide real time video of you playing any MMO, showing you pulling and rounding up every mob in an entire zone, and killing them all solo, with only one button/skill from level 1 to level 60 (which quite simply cannot be done, at all), your post is exaggeration and utter Bullshit.
    cameltosis
    It is a funny world we live in.
    We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,157
    My good friend and I played LoTRO about two years back, 

    "The combat was dumb down it was a JOKE more than any other" 

    I played two weeks he tried for two and he admitted it sucked especially when we grouped it was apparent.

    This game reeks of simple. 

    It's worst case don't let anyone tell you diffident !...... What a bad OP Topic to promote this game !
    First, I was only describing to Amaranthar those mechanics, didn't address difficulty at all, so I've no clue how is your reply related...

    Second, since you've brought it up, yep I remember. Hard to forget when we have this very conversation each year :)
    And all I can say what I always do, and did in this thread as well (SlowTro kins, for a start), just as did Scorchien with "I was just giving insight on how to make LOTRO a more challenging and immersive experience for those who may be interested.."
    Emphasis on who may be interested.

    It's all up to you.
    If you find it too easy, there are plenty of ways to bump up (or even down, if that's your fancy) the difficulty. It ain't a lukewarm forced scaling game like your example in the OP: the Dumb as Clay, the Fantastupidic Scaling of one Tamriel Quinn...

    That's the whole point of having options, and the very same reason why I said above your idea of forced difficulty raise in games is a bad one. Give it into the hands of the players.
    Sure, it won't always work, a few will still just raging on forums how the game is too easy/hard and making demands to the devs... but the rest, and they're the majority, will just play the game the way they want.
    Since they can.
    NarugScorchien
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,025
    I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
    In EQ you were just a person. In other MMOs everyone is a hero. 
    To be fair.. this really depends on the MMO

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,025
    Kyleran said:
    I'm not seeing much of a market for "really difficult" MMOs/MMORPGs.

    In FO76 there is a top end raid called Vault 94, which I'm told takes a well geared and experienced team about a month of clears in order to obtain a full set of unique cosmetic gear from them.

    In six months of steady play time, I've never seen anyone actually run it.  I guess when first released there was interest, even seen a few higher levels wearing the gear sets, but it is dead today.  In fact, if you can find someone selling the sets they are practically priceless.

    Lots of veterans returning for the expansion, never seen so many new level 500 plus, nor as many hacked weapons (splitter mod) which was corrected at some point, but they were never taken away.

    So now I go to events where level 48 players are mowing down everything in seconds, even Queens drop in a minute when assaulted by a splitter hacked automatic grenade launcher.

    Thing is, these people seem to love the easy mode game play their hacks afford them, yet even with such over powered guns, they still won't run vault 94, just not worth the bother I guess. 

    Most gamers are sissies these days...no amount of "force" will change them.

    That is because, there is no market for difficult MMO's.

    The end result is, the try-hards and wanna-be's that cry for harder content, need someone to brag to, and that simply does not exist in inherently hard MMO's, where they at best will amount to average.

    That is why they all go the easy MMO's and cry for harder content to feed their ego's.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,025
    I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
    Well you are in luck.. if you decided to play DDO, get the Sub package that allows you to open any difficulty, and pick one that sounds hard, like Reaper 10, it will beat you, suprise buttasux you, chew you up and spit you back out.. and keep doing that till you realize it sucks.. ask for help, and realize that it will take you about 3 years of grinding, and 10 past lives to be ready to handle that level of content.

    The come here and tell us all how much you loved that kind of difficulty.
    Kyleran
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,391
    Ungood said:
    I always kinda thought of my MMO experience as a simple villager, and there was an ogre in a cave nearby that was causing all kinds of troubles,,,,no one of us was strong enough to kill it, so we had to band together....EQ was really about the only game that fit that thought process....Almsot all of the others I could kill the ogre by myself without batting an eye.
    Well you are in luck.. if you decided to play DDO, get the Sub package that allows you to open any difficulty, and pick one that sounds hard, like Reaper 10, it will beat you, suprise buttasux you, chew you up and spit you back out.. and keep doing that till you realize it sucks.. ask for help, and realize that it will take you about 3 years of grinding, and 10 past lives to be ready to handle that level of content.

    The come here and tell us all how much you loved that kind of difficulty.
    I'll come here right now,
    And say the game seems VERY unbalanced.  Most likely because you have to spend $$ in the cash shop and sub for what you say to open up the difficulty....... I don't think anyone should play this type of torcher for 3 years...... Sounds like it sucks all around DDO !

    This is typical of F^%$ UP with mmorpgs !

    I can't believe you wrote this as serious materiel :)
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