This isn't starter packages. This is actual in game money in exchange for real money. This is land. This is every ship. And it isn't 8 whales either.
What a load of biased hogwash.
Hogwash?
Oh you mean the game has launched. I am sure I read somewhere that it will never launch. Simple fact: it hasn't so it cannot be a functioning P2W game no matter how hard you want to suggest it.
What it night be going forward - remains to be seen. Obviously that doesn't fit your view.
But its selling land you say ... and? Please explain how that will contribute to it being P2W. Special land that will be able to grow high octane fuel maybe or or a plot to build a "nouse". I have no idea by the way so I await your explanation as to how such sales make this non-released game P2W.
In game credits - yes people can upgrade. See above.
As for the 8 whales maybe you missed the lengthy thread in which it was claimed that the game was funded by 8 whales. We don't know the average value of the funding package. And that is before you factor in SQ42.
The BBC Byte folks asked at the last Citizencon - see the vid of the episode - and for all bar 1 it wasn't mostly under $100. One person did say c. $1,700 but did agree that they were a professional streamer. (So presumably wanted all the ships etc.)
Simple maths says that the more whales you have the less everyone else is paying. You want it both ways. Me - I think there may have been sime early "super-backers" who helped get the game on the road but these days I suspect most sales are one of the fairly basic packages. Don't know though.
But so what as I said. What do different entry levels mean?
What does it matter if someone buys a $350 ship vs. a $45 ship. Will there be a quick upgrade path? Will the more expensive ship be many times better or a totally different mechanic - slow, heavy transport vs. small fast fighter. As I said it hasn't launched. Today its about funding. And as some are keen to point out nothing is set in stone.
You are pushing a narrative that SC is a P2W game today. Today!
Newsflash the game hasn't launched. It hasn't. And all there is different levels of entry and no evidence that it will have on-going p2w mechanics.
Yes if e.g. SC is sold to investors or e.g. a company that pays its CEO tens of millions a year the CEO buys it then you it may become a full on p2w game.
If you genuinely have a concern about why/how "p2w" can be detrimental I fully support you. There are arguments both ways but it is a consideration. Are you concerned though or simply posting anti-SC stuff. Based on your response it looks like its SC bashing. And your pious talk about p2w is just window dressing.
Another load of crap.
Watching you try and soften the truth by saying you think there aren't very many whales is embarrassing. Your anecdotal evidence from a Byte piece and a thread is your evidence of 8 whales? That is stupid. There's no other way to describe it.
I don't have a concern about how P2W it is. It is P2W. I explained why I personally don't like P2W models, but I think they are a fine model to go with if that is what you want. Watching people bend the truth and lie and try and change reality is what I have a problem with.
You can buy every single ship. You can buy in game money. You can buy land. All with real money. I know it bothers you to admit it, but that has more to do with your own denial about what this game is and will be. It is one of the most P2W games ever devised and it's sitting there staring you in the face while you are apparently in denial about it.
As I said - and do read carefully since you consider this hogwash - the game has not launched. And there are those who say it will never launch. So you saying it is p2w now is - well hogwash to use your term.
As to my "evidence" of 8 whales - sorry this comes from another thread in which another SC poster with just as little evidence as yourself made the claim that the game is funded by whales. You haven't even offered up Byte sized evidence for your claim!
And just to remind you - since you burbled about land again - I asked you to explain what p2w mechanic is associated with the sale of land. You can use simple of complicated words. I will understand. Remember that SC is not Archeage however.
To get you started here is what was said back in 2017.
"Please Note: These claim licenses are being made available for pledging to help fund Star Citizen's development. The ability to obtain these claim licenses will ultimately be available for in-game credits and/or otherwise earnable through play in the game. Pledging for these claim licenses now allows us to include deeper features in the Star Citizen game, and is not required for starting the game."
and
"The UEE [Star Citizen's space government] sells claim licenses for the same reasons as any government - to raise revenue to fund public benefit programs, to liberalise its economy, to spur growth and tax revenue, and to fund the military campaign against the Vanduul."
So please explain what is p2w.
What I believe is that it has much more to do with "90 days tops" and it was all about funding. But hey clearly RSI / CIG was in robust financial health and this is all hogwash. Its all about p2w as you keep on claiming and ....
you are going to tell us all how.
You are the one that mentioned the number of whales, not me. You said there could be 8 whales. It's just a stupid thing to say. Now you are asking me to defend my position that there are more than 8 whales?
You can purchase every ship in the game. You can purchase in game money. You can purchase land in the game. You can do all of this with real life money.
The amount of denial about the facts is stunning to be honest. It shows that you REALLY don't want this game to be P2W. Which I can only assume means that you don't like P2W mechanics. You even said I was bashing it for calling it P2W. It's not bashing anything. The game has a P2W monetization model.
Like this wont make some of us see it as way to continue to milk you poor sops. Talk about increasing the complexity. Looks like some of those who "bought" these large ships may have to be sure they have friends when they want to fly it. Guess I may have to ask Eve players if they need groups to run their capital ships.
There are currently, right now in 3.8.1 Alpha Orgs counting up to 10.000 memebers (ten thousand) and even more with thousands a hundreds. No need to have 15 firends at once, just join an Org with few frends or alone.
This isn't starter packages. This is actual in game money in exchange for real money. This is land. This is every ship. And it isn't 8 whales either.
What a load of biased hogwash.
Hogwash?
Oh you mean the game has launched. I am sure I read somewhere that it will never launch. Simple fact: it hasn't so it cannot be a functioning P2W game no matter how hard you want to suggest it.
What it night be going forward - remains to be seen. Obviously that doesn't fit your view.
But its selling land you say ... and? Please explain how that will contribute to it being P2W. Special land that will be able to grow high octane fuel maybe or or a plot to build a "nouse". I have no idea by the way so I await your explanation as to how such sales make this non-released game P2W.
In game credits - yes people can upgrade. See above.
As for the 8 whales maybe you missed the lengthy thread in which it was claimed that the game was funded by 8 whales. We don't know the average value of the funding package. And that is before you factor in SQ42.
The BBC Byte folks asked at the last Citizencon - see the vid of the episode - and for all bar 1 it wasn't mostly under $100. One person did say c. $1,700 but did agree that they were a professional streamer. (So presumably wanted all the ships etc.)
Simple maths says that the more whales you have the less everyone else is paying. You want it both ways. Me - I think there may have been sime early "super-backers" who helped get the game on the road but these days I suspect most sales are one of the fairly basic packages. Don't know though.
But so what as I said. What do different entry levels mean?
What does it matter if someone buys a $350 ship vs. a $45 ship. Will there be a quick upgrade path? Will the more expensive ship be many times better or a totally different mechanic - slow, heavy transport vs. small fast fighter. As I said it hasn't launched. Today its about funding. And as some are keen to point out nothing is set in stone.
You are pushing a narrative that SC is a P2W game today. Today!
Newsflash the game hasn't launched. It hasn't. And all there is different levels of entry and no evidence that it will have on-going p2w mechanics.
Yes if e.g. SC is sold to investors or e.g. a company that pays its CEO tens of millions a year the CEO buys it then you it may become a full on p2w game.
If you genuinely have a concern about why/how "p2w" can be detrimental I fully support you. There are arguments both ways but it is a consideration. Are you concerned though or simply posting anti-SC stuff. Based on your response it looks like its SC bashing. And your pious talk about p2w is just window dressing.
Another load of crap.
Watching you try and soften the truth by saying you think there aren't very many whales is embarrassing. Your anecdotal evidence from a Byte piece and a thread is your evidence of 8 whales? That is stupid. There's no other way to describe it.
I don't have a concern about how P2W it is. It is P2W. I explained why I personally don't like P2W models, but I think they are a fine model to go with if that is what you want. Watching people bend the truth and lie and try and change reality is what I have a problem with.
You can buy every single ship. You can buy in game money. You can buy land. All with real money. I know it bothers you to admit it, but that has more to do with your own denial about what this game is and will be. It is one of the most P2W games ever devised and it's sitting there staring you in the face while you are apparently in denial about it.
Right.
Do people not remember the P2W factor of Arena Commander. You had a best ship (Hornet) and then flavour of the month loadouts purchased from the Voyager Direct store for ridiculous sums of money that whales and wallet warriors were buying to dominate and compete on the leaderboards, it's been P2W since mid/late 2014
... except yopu can get those hips now in game with Credits. No need to spend more than the 45$ starter package indeed.
You are the one that mentioned the number of whales, not me. You said there could be 8 whales. It's just a stupid thing to say. Now you are asking me to defend my position that there are more than 8 whales?
You can purchase every ship in the game. You can purchase in game money. You can purchase land in the game. You can do all of this with real life money.
The amount of denial about the facts is stunning to be honest. It shows that you REALLY don't want this game to be P2W. Which I can only assume means that you don't like P2W mechanics. You even said I was bashing it for calling it P2W. It's not bashing anything. The game has a P2W monetization model.
Yep I did. Have it on good authority in another thread from another "anti-SC" poster that there are 8 whales. So must be true right? Absolutely!
Just like you saying land is p2w.
Notice no denial - you can purchase land. Nor did I deny that "land is this awesome p2w benefit" because - well it must be true because you have said so. Just like the poster who went on and on and on about 8 whales.
Can't for the life of me, as the saying goes, work out how land is p2w though so you really need to explain it. Simple words or complicated words. Just explain.
Btw if you believe that the mechanisms SC are using to raise money to fund development well first didn't you get the memo its never launching some say and second don't even think about trying a 24/7 pvp browser type game. Hint: they are proper p2w!
With the amounts of money some of those folks are putting into the game, they should get some advantage.
Not even being snarky about it....
Yeah, the other day some guy was saying that the $155 mining ship was less profitable than hand mining because of fuel, shipping, whatever. A guy in this thread is saying that a $350 ship is worse than a $40 one. It's a way of muddying the waters even though everyone with a rational mind knows it's bullshit.
You are the one that mentioned the number of whales, not me. You said there could be 8 whales. It's just a stupid thing to say. Now you are asking me to defend my position that there are more than 8 whales?
You can purchase every ship in the game. You can purchase in game money. You can purchase land in the game. You can do all of this with real life money.
The amount of denial about the facts is stunning to be honest. It shows that you REALLY don't want this game to be P2W. Which I can only assume means that you don't like P2W mechanics. You even said I was bashing it for calling it P2W. It's not bashing anything. The game has a P2W monetization model.
Yep I did. Have it on good authority in another thread from another "anti-SC" poster that there are 8 whales. So must be true right? Absolutely!
Just like you saying land is p2w.
Notice no denial - you can purchase land. Nor did I deny that "land is this awesome p2w benefit" because - well it must be true because you have said so. Just like the poster who went on and on and on about 8 whales.
Can't for the life of me, as the saying goes, work out how land is p2w though so you really need to explain it. Simple words or complicated words. Just explain.
Btw if you believe that the mechanisms SC are using to raise money to fund development well first didn't you get the memo its never launching some say and second don't even think about trying a 24/7 pvp browser type game. Hint: they are proper p2w!
P.S. DON'T FORGET TO TELL ME HOW LAND WORKS.
You are really obsessed with land. That you are so focused on land just shows how you feel about the rest of it. You even have to put words in my mouth at this point. "Land is an awesome P2W benefit?" Pfft.
People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land.
You can buy all of the ships with RL money. You can buy in game credits with real money. You can buy land with real money.
You can even buy in game money with RL money and then buy ships or land with it.
And this weird thing at the end where you go on about how some people say it's never coming out? Wut? How about you argue with those people about that instead of randomly injecting it without reason.
Try a browser game? Both games can be P2W. In one of these browser games you get advantages over others and in SC you get advantages over others. Assuming we are talking about similar style games, in both games you can use what you get to attack other players, trade more effectively. Great comparison!
This game is the biggest and most expensive P2W game ever. I wish it wasn't true, but it just is. You are apparently ok with it. Which is great for you. But I'm not going to live in some bizarro world where this monstrosity doesn't fall under P2W.
You are the one that mentioned the number of whales, not me. You said there could be 8 whales. It's just a stupid thing to say. Now you are asking me to defend my position that there are more than 8 whales?
You can purchase every ship in the game. You can purchase in game money. You can purchase land in the game. You can do all of this with real life money.
The amount of denial about the facts is stunning to be honest. It shows that you REALLY don't want this game to be P2W. Which I can only assume means that you don't like P2W mechanics. You even said I was bashing it for calling it P2W. It's not bashing anything. The game has a P2W monetization model.
Yep I did. Have it on good authority in another thread from another "anti-SC" poster that there are 8 whales. So must be true right? Absolutely!
Just like you saying land is p2w.
Notice no denial - you can purchase land. Nor did I deny that "land is this awesome p2w benefit" because - well it must be true because you have said so. Just like the poster who went on and on and on about 8 whales.
Can't for the life of me, as the saying goes, work out how land is p2w though so you really need to explain it. Simple words or complicated words. Just explain.
Btw if you believe that the mechanisms SC are using to raise money to fund development well first didn't you get the memo its never launching some say and second don't even think about trying a 24/7 pvp browser type game. Hint: they are proper p2w!
P.S. DON'T FORGET TO TELL ME HOW LAND WORKS.
You are really obsessed with land. That you are so focused on land just shows how you feel about the rest of it. You even have to put words in my mouth at this point. "Land is an awesome P2W benefit?" Pfft.
People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land.
You can buy all of the ships with RL money. You can buy in game credits with real money. You can buy land with real money.
You can even buy in game money with RL money and then buy ships or land with it.
And this weird thing at the end where you go on about how some people say it's never coming out? Wut? How about you argue with those people about that instead of randomly injecting it without reason.
Try a browser game? Both games can be P2W. In one of these browser games you get advantages over others and in SC you get advantages over others. Assuming we are talking about similar style games, in both games you can use what you get to attack other players, trade more effectively. Great comparison!
This game is the biggest and most expensive P2W game ever. I wish it wasn't true, but it just is. You are apparently ok with it. Which is great for you. But I'm not going to live in some bizarro world where this monstrosity doesn't fall under P2W.
You are the one that mentioned land and how its p2w. Not once. Not twice. Four times now is it.
The attributes of ships could be discussed. How they may - or may not - become p2w. But one gets the idea - big time - that you are not interested.
And no it doesn't look like you have played any serious p2w games. There is a difference between "time limited buffs" common in many games and "boosters".
One gets the impression though that you either don't want to know and just want to bash SC or plain do not understand p2w mechanisms.
But if you are / do EXPLAIN HOW LAND IS P2W.
Or admit that you were simply spouting hogwash / bashing SC. So before going on to dissect your claims about ships etc. I will start you off:
LAND IN SC CONFERS THE FOLLOWING P2W BENEFITS .....
You are the one that mentioned the number of whales, not me. You said there could be 8 whales. It's just a stupid thing to say. Now you are asking me to defend my position that there are more than 8 whales?
You can purchase every ship in the game. You can purchase in game money. You can purchase land in the game. You can do all of this with real life money.
The amount of denial about the facts is stunning to be honest. It shows that you REALLY don't want this game to be P2W. Which I can only assume means that you don't like P2W mechanics. You even said I was bashing it for calling it P2W. It's not bashing anything. The game has a P2W monetization model.
Yep I did. Have it on good authority in another thread from another "anti-SC" poster that there are 8 whales. So must be true right? Absolutely!
Just like you saying land is p2w.
Notice no denial - you can purchase land. Nor did I deny that "land is this awesome p2w benefit" because - well it must be true because you have said so. Just like the poster who went on and on and on about 8 whales.
Can't for the life of me, as the saying goes, work out how land is p2w though so you really need to explain it. Simple words or complicated words. Just explain.
Btw if you believe that the mechanisms SC are using to raise money to fund development well first didn't you get the memo its never launching some say and second don't even think about trying a 24/7 pvp browser type game. Hint: they are proper p2w!
P.S. DON'T FORGET TO TELL ME HOW LAND WORKS.
You are really obsessed with land. That you are so focused on land just shows how you feel about the rest of it. You even have to put words in my mouth at this point. "Land is an awesome P2W benefit?" Pfft.
People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land.
You can buy all of the ships with RL money. You can buy in game credits with real money. You can buy land with real money.
You can even buy in game money with RL money and then buy ships or land with it.
And this weird thing at the end where you go on about how some people say it's never coming out? Wut? How about you argue with those people about that instead of randomly injecting it without reason.
Try a browser game? Both games can be P2W. In one of these browser games you get advantages over others and in SC you get advantages over others. Assuming we are talking about similar style games, in both games you can use what you get to attack other players, trade more effectively. Great comparison!
This game is the biggest and most expensive P2W game ever. I wish it wasn't true, but it just is. You are apparently ok with it. Which is great for you. But I'm not going to live in some bizarro world where this monstrosity doesn't fall under P2W.
You are the one that mentioned land and how its p2w. Not once. Not twice. Four times now is it.
The attributes of ships could be discussed. How they may - or may not - become p2w. But one gets the idea - big time - that you are not interested.
And no it doesn't look like you have played any serious p2w games. There is a difference between "time limited buffs" common in many games and "boosters".
One gets the impression though that you either don't want to know and just want to bash SC or plain do not understand p2w mechanisms.
But if you are / do EXPLAIN HOW LAND IS P2W.
Or admit that you were simply spouting hogwash / bashing SC. So before going on to dissect your claims about ships etc. I will start you off:
LAND IN SC CONFERS THE FOLLOWING P2W BENEFITS .....
Learn to read the whole post before you respond my boy. Second paragraph. You are REALLY into land right now.
And once again you go to attack me personally and dismiss me by saying I'm bashing. You are really falling apart here.
You can literally purchase, with real cash, end game ships. You can literally purchase in game money with real money. You can literally purchase land with real money.
It's P2W to the extreme. And thanks for pointing out the browser games. Comparing them, SC is far worse than many of those browser games that give you advantages for money. Maybe it'll bring a little perspective to you.
You can just buy an $800 ship outright. Then you can pay for loading it up with in game currency you bought for cash. Then you can get with other people that spend thousands on the game and attack people that aren't willing or too poor to get a land license for when they want to do whatever in the world. Everything is bent favorably to those that pay.
You are the one that mentioned the number of whales, not me. You said there could be 8 whales. It's just a stupid thing to say. Now you are asking me to defend my position that there are more than 8 whales?
You can purchase every ship in the game. You can purchase in game money. You can purchase land in the game. You can do all of this with real life money.
The amount of denial about the facts is stunning to be honest. It shows that you REALLY don't want this game to be P2W. Which I can only assume means that you don't like P2W mechanics. You even said I was bashing it for calling it P2W. It's not bashing anything. The game has a P2W monetization model.
Yep I did. Have it on good authority in another thread from another "anti-SC" poster that there are 8 whales. So must be true right? Absolutely!
Just like you saying land is p2w.
Notice no denial - you can purchase land. Nor did I deny that "land is this awesome p2w benefit" because - well it must be true because you have said so. Just like the poster who went on and on and on about 8 whales.
Can't for the life of me, as the saying goes, work out how land is p2w though so you really need to explain it. Simple words or complicated words. Just explain.
Btw if you believe that the mechanisms SC are using to raise money to fund development well first didn't you get the memo its never launching some say and second don't even think about trying a 24/7 pvp browser type game. Hint: they are proper p2w!
P.S. DON'T FORGET TO TELL ME HOW LAND WORKS.
You are really obsessed with land. That you are so focused on land just shows how you feel about the rest of it. You even have to put words in my mouth at this point. "Land is an awesome P2W benefit?" Pfft.
People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land.
You can buy all of the ships with RL money. You can buy in game credits with real money. You can buy land with real money.
You can even buy in game money with RL money and then buy ships or land with it.
And this weird thing at the end where you go on about how some people say it's never coming out? Wut? How about you argue with those people about that instead of randomly injecting it without reason.
Try a browser game? Both games can be P2W. In one of these browser games you get advantages over others and in SC you get advantages over others. Assuming we are talking about similar style games, in both games you can use what you get to attack other players, trade more effectively. Great comparison!
This game is the biggest and most expensive P2W game ever. I wish it wasn't true, but it just is. You are apparently ok with it. Which is great for you. But I'm not going to live in some bizarro world where this monstrosity doesn't fall under P2W.
You are the one that mentioned land and how its p2w. Not once. Not twice. Four times now is it.
The attributes of ships could be discussed. How they may - or may not - become p2w. But one gets the idea - big time - that you are not interested.
And no it doesn't look like you have played any serious p2w games. There is a difference between "time limited buffs" common in many games and "boosters".
One gets the impression though that you either don't want to know and just want to bash SC or plain do not understand p2w mechanisms.
But if you are / do EXPLAIN HOW LAND IS P2W.
Or admit that you were simply spouting hogwash / bashing SC. So before going on to dissect your claims about ships etc. I will start you off:
LAND IN SC CONFERS THE FOLLOWING P2W BENEFITS .....
Learn to read the whole post before you respond my boy. Second paragraph. You are REALLY into land right now.
And once again you go to attack me personally and dismiss me by saying I'm bashing. You are really falling apart here.
You can literally purchase, with real cash, end game ships. You can literally purchase in game money with real money. You can literally purchase land with real money.
It's P2W to the extreme. And thanks for pointing out the browser games. Comparing them, SC is far worse than many of those browser games that give you advantages for money. Maybe it'll bring a little perspective to you.
You can just buy an $800 ship outright. Then you can pay for loading it up with in game currency you bought for cash. Then you can get with other people that spend thousands on the game and attack people that aren't willing or too poor to get a land license for when they want to do whatever in the world. Everything is bent favorably to those that pay.
So still not saying what being able to purchase land with real money does other than fund the development of the game. Looks like a difficult concept to grasp that there os no advantage whatsoever.
OK so you want to move on from land since you comment is bullsjit.
On to ships then. Here is a question on ships for you.
Leaving aside that different ships do different things - mining, freight, hospital, fighter types etc. - lets assume that an expensive ship confers an advantage over a cheap ship. I assume you understand the assumption.
Then:
If the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive takes 10,000 hours of playtime will you be saying e.g. proof positive its p2w, told you so.
Yes?
However what will you say if the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive path however is 10 hours?
That people were duped? Suckered? Would you still be saying that SC is the biggest p2w game ever though?
For here's the thing. The game has not yet launched. This does seem to be a difficult concept for you to grasp obviously. Currently it is in funding mode. the term p2w is meaningless.
Now - and I touched on this in my first post its about progression and upgrade paths and balance. All that good stuff. Which you called hogwash so:
IF IT TAKES 10 HOURS TO GO FROM CHEAPEST SHIP TO MOST EXPENSIVE EXPLAIN HOW THAT WILL BE THE WORST P2W GAME EVER.
Remember my view is we don't know. You are claiming it is all set in stone however so I have no problem asking such a question.
And that is before I go on to talk about what is and is not an advanatge; different roles and so forth.
Learn to read the whole post before you respond my boy. Second paragraph. You are REALLY into land right now.
And once again you go to attack me personally and dismiss me by saying I'm bashing. You are really falling apart here.
You can literally purchase, with real cash, end game ships. You can literally purchase in game money with real money. You can literally purchase land with real money.
It's P2W to the extreme. And thanks for pointing out the browser games. Comparing them, SC is far worse than many of those browser games that give you advantages for money. Maybe it'll bring a little perspective to you.
You can just buy an $800 ship outright. Then you can pay for loading it up with in game currency you bought for cash. Then you can get with other people that spend thousands on the game and attack people that aren't willing or too poor to get a land license for when they want to do whatever in the world. Everything is bent favorably to those that pay.
So still not saying what being able to purchase land with real money does other than fund the development of the game. Looks like a difficult concept to grasp that there os no advantage whatsoever.
OK so you want to move on from land since you comment is bullsjit.
On to ships then. Here is a question on ships for you.
Leaving aside that different ships do different things - mining, freight, hospital, fighter types etc. - lets assume that an expensive ship confers an advantage over a cheap ship. I assume you understand the assumption.
Then:
If the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive takes 10,000 hours of playtime will you be saying e.g. proof positive its p2w, told you so.
Yes?
However what will you say if the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive path however is 10 hours?
That people were duped? Suckered? Would you still be saying that SC is the biggest p2w game ever though?
For here's the thing. The game has not yet launched. This does seem to be a difficult concept for you to grasp obviously. Currently it is in funding mode. the term p2w is meaningless.
Now - and I touched on this in my first post its about progression and upgrade paths and balance. All that good stuff. Which you called hogwash so:
IF IT TAKES 10 HOURS TO GO FROM CHEAPEST SHIP TO MOST EXPENSIVE EXPLAIN HOW THAT WILL BE THE WORST P2W GAME EVER.
Remember my view is we don't know. You are claiming it is all set in stone however so I have no problem asking such a question.
And that is before I go on to talk about what is and is not an advanatge; different roles and so forth.
Anyway have fun. Have to go!
How did you not read this? I even told you where to look. I will bold and italicize.
"People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land."
Are you like, trying to put all argument eggs in the land basket or something? Because buying land is so obviously P2W too.
As to your other nonsense fantasy scenario, if you can bang out the $800 ship in 10 hours, the game is going to be absolutely horrible anyway. And people are going to be absolutely pissed about having purchased those $800 ships. Besides your fantasy scenario, I don't really have to explain anything. It's plain for everyone to see. You can buy every ship in the game, you can buy in game credits. You can buy land.
The ultimate in P2W really. Easily beats out browser games.
Learn to read the whole post before you respond my boy. Second paragraph. You are REALLY into land right now.
And once again you go to attack me personally and dismiss me by saying I'm bashing. You are really falling apart here.
You can literally purchase, with real cash, end game ships. You can literally purchase in game money with real money. You can literally purchase land with real money.
It's P2W to the extreme. And thanks for pointing out the browser games. Comparing them, SC is far worse than many of those browser games that give you advantages for money. Maybe it'll bring a little perspective to you.
You can just buy an $800 ship outright. Then you can pay for loading it up with in game currency you bought for cash. Then you can get with other people that spend thousands on the game and attack people that aren't willing or too poor to get a land license for when they want to do whatever in the world. Everything is bent favorably to those that pay.
So still not saying what being able to purchase land with real money does other than fund the development of the game. Looks like a difficult concept to grasp that there os no advantage whatsoever.
OK so you want to move on from land since you comment is bullsjit.
On to ships then. Here is a question on ships for you.
Leaving aside that different ships do different things - mining, freight, hospital, fighter types etc. - lets assume that an expensive ship confers an advantage over a cheap ship. I assume you understand the assumption.
Then:
If the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive takes 10,000 hours of playtime will you be saying e.g. proof positive its p2w, told you so.
Yes?
However what will you say if the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive path however is 10 hours?
That people were duped? Suckered? Would you still be saying that SC is the biggest p2w game ever though?
For here's the thing. The game has not yet launched. This does seem to be a difficult concept for you to grasp obviously. Currently it is in funding mode. the term p2w is meaningless.
Now - and I touched on this in my first post its about progression and upgrade paths and balance. All that good stuff. Which you called hogwash so:
IF IT TAKES 10 HOURS TO GO FROM CHEAPEST SHIP TO MOST EXPENSIVE EXPLAIN HOW THAT WILL BE THE WORST P2W GAME EVER.
Remember my view is we don't know. You are claiming it is all set in stone however so I have no problem asking such a question.
And that is before I go on to talk about what is and is not an advanatge; different roles and so forth.
Anyway have fun. Have to go!
How did you not read this? I even told you where to look. I will bold and italicize.
"People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land."
Are you like, trying to put all argument eggs in the land basket or something? Because buying land is so obviously P2W too.
As to your other nonsense fantasy scenario, if you can bang out the $800 ship in 10 hours, the game is going to be absolutely horrible anyway. And people are going to be absolutely pissed about having purchased those $800 ships. Besides your fantasy scenario, I don't really have to explain anything. It's plain for everyone to see. You can buy every ship in the game, you can buy in game credits. You can buy land.
The ultimate in P2W really. Easily beats out browser games.
No no no, you are not buying anything in SC. You are donating, and CIG is nice enough to present you with a gift in return. I donated and got a ship and access to the game in return but never did I buy anything. People never wanted or needed these gifts, they would have easily spend thousands upon thousands to help fund SC, the gifts are just a bonus, not an incentive at all.
I can also play the game but not judge it since it hasn’t released yet. Well, I can only judge the positives like how gorgeous it is or how ambitious, not the negatives, its still alpha right?
The worst part? I actually like SC. But man, its just a game and certainly not the best thing I have ever played.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Learn to read the whole post before you respond my boy. Second paragraph. You are REALLY into land right now.
And once again you go to attack me personally and dismiss me by saying I'm bashing. You are really falling apart here.
You can literally purchase, with real cash, end game ships. You can literally purchase in game money with real money. You can literally purchase land with real money.
It's P2W to the extreme. And thanks for pointing out the browser games. Comparing them, SC is far worse than many of those browser games that give you advantages for money. Maybe it'll bring a little perspective to you.
You can just buy an $800 ship outright. Then you can pay for loading it up with in game currency you bought for cash. Then you can get with other people that spend thousands on the game and attack people that aren't willing or too poor to get a land license for when they want to do whatever in the world. Everything is bent favorably to those that pay.
So still not saying what being able to purchase land with real money does other than fund the development of the game. Looks like a difficult concept to grasp that there os no advantage whatsoever.
OK so you want to move on from land since you comment is bullsjit.
On to ships then. Here is a question on ships for you.
Leaving aside that different ships do different things - mining, freight, hospital, fighter types etc. - lets assume that an expensive ship confers an advantage over a cheap ship. I assume you understand the assumption.
Then:
If the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive takes 10,000 hours of playtime will you be saying e.g. proof positive its p2w, told you so.
Yes?
However what will you say if the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive path however is 10 hours?
That people were duped? Suckered? Would you still be saying that SC is the biggest p2w game ever though?
For here's the thing. The game has not yet launched. This does seem to be a difficult concept for you to grasp obviously. Currently it is in funding mode. the term p2w is meaningless.
Now - and I touched on this in my first post its about progression and upgrade paths and balance. All that good stuff. Which you called hogwash so:
IF IT TAKES 10 HOURS TO GO FROM CHEAPEST SHIP TO MOST EXPENSIVE EXPLAIN HOW THAT WILL BE THE WORST P2W GAME EVER.
Remember my view is we don't know. You are claiming it is all set in stone however so I have no problem asking such a question.
And that is before I go on to talk about what is and is not an advanatge; different roles and so forth.
Anyway have fun. Have to go!
How did you not read this? I even told you where to look. I will bold and italicize.
"People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land."
Are you like, trying to put all argument eggs in the land basket or something? Because buying land is so obviously P2W too.
As to your other nonsense fantasy scenario, if you can bang out the $800 ship in 10 hours, the game is going to be absolutely horrible anyway. And people are going to be absolutely pissed about having purchased those $800 ships. Besides your fantasy scenario, I don't really have to explain anything. It's plain for everyone to see. You can buy every ship in the game, you can buy in game credits. You can buy land.
The ultimate in P2W really. Easily beats out browser games.
I think you're just spinning your wheels with gervaise1. He's so in denial about the game being P2W, he won't even accept the evidence you've provided repeatedly. I guess it's too threatening to his fantasy of what the game should be.
It's astounding that people still believe that players who spend hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in the game would accept not being superior to those who spend little or nothing. They just don't seem to get that that's not a viable business model.
For those that always talk about converting real life money to in game money ... at 833 UEC for 1 dollar (5000 UEC for 6 $) NO ONE i know has bought ANY UEC for real life money. And i know quite a few SC players from all over the world. None of their SC friends has done it either. It may be a theoretical option .... but extremely rarely used in real life. Some people got UEC by "melting" pledges. Some people got UEC as part of their pledge packages.
As i have posted in several other threads here in the SC subforum, space games like Elite and EVE tend to have players that own billions, even trillions of in game money after a comparatively short amount of time. The moment players understand the economy of a game, getting in game money becomes ridiculously easy. There is simply no need to buy in game money with real world money.
You can earn this (833) amount of UEC in a few minutes of playing in game.
And you could only buy 25.000 UEC per day ... which basically no one does anyway.
No reason to buy any PvP weapons or ships ... you can simply rent it (and i have more of this in-game rent currency than i could spend in the next 10 years). You also earn this rent money in game just by playing.
So ... to all you theorycrafters ... keep riding the dead horse of real-life-money-to-in-game-money-conversion.
Have fun
PS:
>>> And people are going to be absolutely pissed about having purchased those $800 ships. >>>
Having asked people that HAVE high level pledge ships ... they would not be pissed at all. Because bigger ships simply have other roles compared to smaller ships. They did not buy these larger ships to have a better fighting ship. These are not single pilot EVE Titans. They bought them to have ships that can serve as fleet HQs, as meeting places for their player groups, as focus point for player activities. Even if this ship gets shot down - they get the LTI hull back for free anyway. Or for a laughably small amount of insurance money. They rather be in an interesting fight - ship loss or no loss.
For those that always talk about converting real life money to in game money ... at 833 UEC for 1 dollar (5000 UEC for 6 $) NO ONE i know has bought ANY UEC for real life money. And i know quite a few SC players from all over the world. None of their SC friends has done it either. It may be a theoretical option .... but extremely rarely used in real life. Some people got UEC by "melting" pledges. Some people got UEC as part of their pledge packages.
As i have posted in several other threads here in the SC subforum, space games like Elite and EVE tend to have players that own billions, even trillions of in game money after a comparatively short amount of time. The moment players understand the economy of a game, getting in game money becomes ridiculously easy. There is simply no need to buy in game money with real world money.
You can earn this (833) amount of UEC in a few minutes of playing in game.
And you could only buy 25.000 UEC per day ... which basically no one does anyway.
No reason to buy any PvP weapons or ships ... you can simply rent it (and i have more of this in-game rent currency than i could spend in the next 10 years). You also earn this rent money in game just by playing.
So ... to all you theorycrafters ... keep riding the dead horse of real-life-money-to-in-game-money-conversion.
Have fun
PS:
>>> And people are going to be absolutely pissed about having purchased those $800 ships. >>>
Having asked people that HAVE high level pledge ships ... they would not be pissed at all. Because bigger ships simply have other roles compared to smaller ships. They did not buy these larger ships to have a better fighting ship. These are not single pilot EVE Titans. They bought them to have ships that can serve as fleet HQs, as meeting places for their player groups, as focus point for player activities. Even if this ship gets shot down - they get the LTI hull back for free anyway. Or for a laughably small amount of insurance money. They rather be in an interesting fight - ship loss or no loss.
People can do math, mostly. So they take the option that returns the most in game money for their real life money. Is also not close to being released and as you love to point out nothing NOW has to be what it is (if) it releases I imagine if it does they will rework it so they will offer plenty of chances for people to spend real life money to buy in game money. I also suspect in game ship prices (in in game money) to DRASTICALLY increase. Making it much easier to buy them outright or buy in game currency (with real life cash) to buy them.
These guys arent going to suddenly make everything 'free' just because they dont need funding anymore. it will then (if it releases) b ean actual business (not business model) and there will have to be a way to make money. It certainly wont be with subscriptions.
For those that always talk about converting real life money to in game money ... at 833 UEC for 1 dollar (5000 UEC for 6 $) NO ONE i know has bought ANY UEC for real life money. And i know quite a few SC players from all over the world. None of their SC friends has done it either. It may be a theoretical option .... but extremely rarely used in real life. Some people got UEC by "melting" pledges. Some people got UEC as part of their pledge packages.
As i have posted in several other threads here in the SC subforum, space games like Elite and EVE tend to have players that own billions, even trillions of in game money after a comparatively short amount of time. The moment players understand the economy of a game, getting in game money becomes ridiculously easy. There is simply no need to buy in game money with real world money.
You can earn this (833) amount of UEC in a few minutes of playing in game.
And you could only buy 25.000 UEC per day ... which basically no one does anyway.
No reason to buy any PvP weapons or ships ... you can simply rent it (and i have more of this in-game rent currency than i could spend in the next 10 years). You also earn this rent money in game just by playing.
So ... to all you theorycrafters ... keep riding the dead horse of real-life-money-to-in-game-money-conversion.
Have fun
PS:
>>> And people are going to be absolutely pissed about having purchased those $800 ships. >>>
Having asked people that HAVE high level pledge ships ... they would not be pissed at all. Because bigger ships simply have other roles compared to smaller ships. They did not buy these larger ships to have a better fighting ship. These are not single pilot EVE Titans. They bought them to have ships that can serve as fleet HQs, as meeting places for their player groups, as focus point for player activities. Even if this ship gets shot down - they get the LTI hull back for free anyway. Or for a laughably small amount of insurance money. They rather be in an interesting fight - ship loss or no loss.
People can do math, mostly. So they take the option that returns the most in game money for their real life money. Is also not close to being released and as you love to point out nothing NOW has to be what it is (if) it releases I imagine if it does they will rework it so they will offer plenty of chances for people to spend real life money to buy in game money. I also suspect in game ship prices (in in game money) to DRASTICALLY increase. Making it much easier to buy them outright or buy in game currency (with real life cash) to buy them.
These guys arent going to suddenly make everything 'free' just because they dont need funding anymore. it will then (if it releases) b ean actual business (not business model) and there will have to be a way to make money. It certainly wont be with subscriptions.
Agreed, they will continue to sell post launch whatever their customer base is most willing to pay for.
Ethics be dammed, it's all about making the money.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It does not matter even if in game ship prices would drastically increase ... it will still be easy to make money in game. In EVE Online people spend billions for their ships ... and do not care. it does not matter how much the ship costs. You could make it x10, x 100 ... people would still buy it with an abundance of in game money. It was the same in Star Wars Galaxies. You had the dirt cheap standard ships. And people asked ridiculous amounts of in game money for better crafted ships ... and still got paid. In Elite ... people deliberately waste the most expensive ships ... because they can.
In game money making guides will be published in game (for Star Citizen there already are many for the Alpha). Everyone who wants can follow that and make as much money as (s)he wants. I have seen people give billions of in game money as gifts to others -sometimes strangers - in various space games. Because in game money did not matter to them. They could always get more. Easily. Or you could join a guild ... and get all types of unused material from veteran guild members. For them its redundant gear they never use, for you it will be top of the line stuff.
Why should anyone spend significant amounts of real world money to convert it to in-game money after the game has laucned .... given this real and common trend in any space game using an economic cycle?
EVE is a spread sheet game where most people who still play it have multiple accounts. I wasnt even that serious and I had 5. I dont know the last time I logged in. But I have over 100 plex on my main account maybe close to 200 PLEX all totaled. I think when i stopped PLEX were like 150-160. But what you claim as a 'strength' is why these types of games all 'fail' at least in terms of widespread appeal. They become too easy to 'beat'. Especially if accruing 'wealth' is your goal.
But still a big difference between what SC is claiming to be and what EVE already is. (was)
The same will happen once(if) its released. People will get very bored very quickly. PvP isnt going to 'save' it thats for sure.
Once people do get the ship they want then what? Play with it for a little bit and get bored more than likely.
Thats why selling shit in games is counter productive. Games dont have long term goals anymore. Even ones that profess to be or want to be MMO.
Its a balancing act, and to expect these guys to get it close to 'right' (even if they try) is as laughable as thinking they can release this thing at all (without help).
It wont be done but the 'best' way to do it would be to have separate servers where you have real money ships and servers where people have in game ships. Basically split the pay to win and 'regular' players up. THAT would really show the dichotomy of the people who want this to be playable at some point.
But all still cart before horse, actually waiting for them to invent the wheel to put on the cart to put in front of the horse.. Unless its actually sold in a retail form all this is still more nonsense that doesnt matter.
Its a balancing act, and to expect these guys to get it close to 'right' (even if they try) is as laughable as thinking they can release this thing at all (without help).
And this is why SC is NOT a game. People may be enjoying the experience of a game in development, but there is no game there, so there is not yet a game loop problem or a game balance problem that will ultimately need to be confronted. There is no way they hit the target with one shot on some magical day in the near future.
Wrong There is a Game (in development) and there are game loops, and there are game balance problems that are constantly and actively confronted and worked on by the developers and ironed out with the input of the alpha players.
Maybe don't speak about projects you have no actual knowledge of.
Comments
You can purchase every ship in the game. You can purchase in game money. You can purchase land in the game. You can do all of this with real life money.
The amount of denial about the facts is stunning to be honest. It shows that you REALLY don't want this game to be P2W. Which I can only assume means that you don't like P2W mechanics. You even said I was bashing it for calling it P2W. It's not bashing anything. The game has a P2W monetization model.
There are currently, right now in 3.8.1 Alpha Orgs counting up to 10.000 memebers (ten thousand) and even more with thousands a hundreds. No need to have 15 firends at once, just join an Org with few frends or alone.
... except yopu can get those hips now in game with Credits. No need to spend more than the 45$ starter package indeed.
Just like you saying land is p2w.
Notice no denial - you can purchase land. Nor did I deny that "land is this awesome p2w benefit" because - well it must be true because you have said so. Just like the poster who went on and on and on about 8 whales.
Can't for the life of me, as the saying goes, work out how land is p2w though so you really need to explain it. Simple words or complicated words. Just explain.
Btw if you believe that the mechanisms SC are using to raise money to fund development well first didn't you get the memo its never launching some say and second don't even think about trying a 24/7 pvp browser type game. Hint: they are proper p2w!
P.S. DON'T FORGET TO TELL ME HOW LAND WORKS.
Not even being snarky about it....
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land.
You can buy all of the ships with RL money. You can buy in game credits with real money. You can buy land with real money.
You can even buy in game money with RL money and then buy ships or land with it.
And this weird thing at the end where you go on about how some people say it's never coming out? Wut? How about you argue with those people about that instead of randomly injecting it without reason.
Try a browser game? Both games can be P2W. In one of these browser games you get advantages over others and in SC you get advantages over others. Assuming we are talking about similar style games, in both games you can use what you get to attack other players, trade more effectively. Great comparison!
This game is the biggest and most expensive P2W game ever. I wish it wasn't true, but it just is. You are apparently ok with it. Which is great for you. But I'm not going to live in some bizarro world where this monstrosity doesn't fall under P2W.
The attributes of ships could be discussed. How they may - or may not - become p2w. But one gets the idea - big time - that you are not interested.
And no it doesn't look like you have played any serious p2w games. There is a difference between "time limited buffs" common in many games and "boosters".
One gets the impression though that you either don't want to know and just want to bash SC or plain do not understand p2w mechanisms.
But if you are / do EXPLAIN HOW LAND IS P2W.
Or admit that you were simply spouting hogwash / bashing SC. So before going on to dissect your claims about ships etc. I will start you off:
LAND IN SC CONFERS THE FOLLOWING P2W BENEFITS .....
And once again you go to attack me personally and dismiss me by saying I'm bashing. You are really falling apart here.
You can literally purchase, with real cash, end game ships. You can literally purchase in game money with real money. You can literally purchase land with real money.
It's P2W to the extreme. And thanks for pointing out the browser games. Comparing them, SC is far worse than many of those browser games that give you advantages for money. Maybe it'll bring a little perspective to you.
You can just buy an $800 ship outright. Then you can pay for loading it up with in game currency you bought for cash. Then you can get with other people that spend thousands on the game and attack people that aren't willing or too poor to get a land license for when they want to do whatever in the world. Everything is bent favorably to those that pay.
OK so you want to move on from land since you comment is bullsjit.
On to ships then. Here is a question on ships for you.
Leaving aside that different ships do different things - mining, freight, hospital, fighter types etc. - lets assume that an expensive ship confers an advantage over a cheap ship. I assume you understand the assumption.
Then:
If the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive takes 10,000 hours of playtime will you be saying e.g. proof positive its p2w, told you so.
Yes?
However what will you say if the upgrade path from the cheapest to the most expensive path however is 10 hours?
That people were duped? Suckered? Would you still be saying that SC is the biggest p2w game ever though?
For here's the thing. The game has not yet launched. This does seem to be a difficult concept for you to grasp obviously. Currently it is in funding mode. the term p2w is meaningless.
Now - and I touched on this in my first post its about progression and upgrade paths and balance. All that good stuff. Which you called hogwash so:
IF IT TAKES 10 HOURS TO GO FROM CHEAPEST SHIP TO MOST EXPENSIVE EXPLAIN HOW THAT WILL BE THE WORST P2W GAME EVER.
Remember my view is we don't know. You are claiming it is all set in stone however so I have no problem asking such a question.
And that is before I go on to talk about what is and is not an advanatge; different roles and so forth.
Anyway have fun. Have to go!
"People that buy land are protected by UEE. People that don't, aren't. You can plop one of these things on a mine and get NPC protection. That is an enormous advantage over others without land."
Are you like, trying to put all argument eggs in the land basket or something? Because buying land is so obviously P2W too.
As to your other nonsense fantasy scenario, if you can bang out the $800 ship in 10 hours, the game is going to be absolutely horrible anyway. And people are going to be absolutely pissed about having purchased those $800 ships. Besides your fantasy scenario, I don't really have to explain anything. It's plain for everyone to see. You can buy every ship in the game, you can buy in game credits. You can buy land.
The ultimate in P2W really. Easily beats out browser games.
The worst part? I actually like SC. But man, its just a game and certainly not the best thing I have ever played.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
It's astounding that people still believe that players who spend hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of dollars in the game would accept not being superior to those who spend little or nothing. They just don't seem to get that that's not a viable business model.
These guys arent going to suddenly make everything 'free' just because they dont need funding anymore. it will then (if it releases) b ean actual business (not business model) and there will have to be a way to make money. It certainly wont be with subscriptions.
Ethics be dammed, it's all about making the money.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But still a big difference between what SC is claiming to be and what EVE already is. (was)
The same will happen once(if) its released. People will get very bored very quickly. PvP isnt going to 'save' it thats for sure.
Once people do get the ship they want then what? Play with it for a little bit and get bored more than likely.
Thats why selling shit in games is counter productive. Games dont have long term goals anymore. Even ones that profess to be or want to be MMO.
Its a balancing act, and to expect these guys to get it close to 'right' (even if they try) is as laughable as thinking they can release this thing at all (without help).
It wont be done but the 'best' way to do it would be to have separate servers where you have real money ships and servers where people have in game ships. Basically split the pay to win and 'regular' players up. THAT would really show the dichotomy of the people who want this to be playable at some point.
But all still cart before horse, actually waiting for them to invent the wheel to put on the cart to put in front of the horse.. Unless its actually sold in a retail form all this is still more nonsense that doesnt matter.