Sure you do, it's no more dangerous than the Shire.
It's an interesting statement. Then hobbits were the ones that walked into Mordor. Between them they had 1 magical sword (no training) and some cooking supplies. They managed to team with people way outside their League and had a meaning contribution to the outcome. That's more like scaled content to me. Thanks for pointing that out
I prefer a world that exists whether I'm there or not, so nothing in the world changes just because I logged in. If I'm a level 12 character that walks into the wrong area, I will be killed by a higher level mob. I am not a fan of instanced worlds.
This is what separates ESO from the rest of the wannabes. You don't have huge areas that become dead zones after people level through them. Wow especially.
EQ ruined the MMORPG genre by making all their zones certain levels and so many foolish copycats followed.
Sure you do, it's no more dangerous than the Shire.
It's an interesting statement. Then hobbits were the ones that walked into Mordor. Between them they had 1 magical sword (no training) and some cooking supplies. They managed to team with people way outside their League and had a meaning contribution to the outcome. That's more like scaled content to me. Thanks for pointing that out
It's horizontal progression :P
Frodo and the hobbits have chosen to give up size, strength and weapons training in favour of stealth, cooking, and magic resistence
Well, maybe they didn't choose to give up size....
Sure you do, it's no more dangerous than the Shire.
It's an interesting statement. Then hobbits were the ones that walked into Mordor. Between them they had 1 magical sword (no training) and some cooking supplies. They managed to team with people way outside their League and had a meaning contribution to the outcome. That's more like scaled content to me. Thanks for pointing that out
It's horizontal progression :P
Frodo and the hobbits have chosen to give up size, strength and weapons training in favour of stealth, cooking, and magic resistence
Well, maybe they didn't choose to give up size....
Everyone knowss they were trickssy!
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Here we are again with this either/or stuff...it's okay to want and have it both ways in the same game. Guild Wars 2 is a very good example of that.
A good example of why it’s a terrible idea. Yes.
What is your alternative to one of the most popular MMOs ever created?
GW2, was not the most popular MMO, it was and apparently still is, very popular. But I think it would have been a better MMO if they didn't try to Up-Scale players, like they did in South Sun Cove, WvW, and Fractals.
Personally, I believe their system of Down-scaling was spot on, as you were always stronger being down-scaled, due to skills, runes, infusions, and the better your gear, the stronger you ended up being overall.
And this did make it so that content expanded as you leveled, you added Zones you could go to, you were not herded through content, and then stuck in the "End Game" like most other games. You could go anywhere and the content remained viable, like DE's, World Bosses, and other events, your entire gaming experience.
So, no matter what anyone says, I thought that was really a great part of GW2's Open World Exploration and social game play, that you never truly just out-leveled a zone. IIRC, when I first started playing, they did not up-level players for Core Zones, and Dungeons, so, there was also that sense of going into a zone that was way to powerful for you, knowing that if any mob caught you, they were going to mess you up (Not sure if that is the case any longer)
I want to make it clear, I am saying this BEFORE the upcoming DPS Balance Patch, so I have no idea how things will feel after that goes live.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Sure you do, it's no more dangerous than the Shire.
It's an interesting statement. Then hobbits were the ones that walked into Mordor. Between them they had 1 magical sword (no training) and some cooking supplies. They managed to team with people way outside their League and had a meaning contribution to the outcome. That's more like scaled content to me. Thanks for pointing that out
It's horizontal progression :P
Frodo and the hobbits have chosen to give up size, strength and weapons training in favour of stealth, cooking, and magic resistence
Well, maybe they didn't choose to give up size....
While I believe Warzod's post was sarcastic, it's accurate. Exactly that would happen in a lame, scaled Middle-earth.
They were stealthy, teaming up with others, then sneaking again, avoiding mobs, searching for a forgotten backdoor while an entire army waged war as a distraction.
Also, not just "1 magical sword (no training)" Nanfoodle, besides the rope and the light they had one of the most powerful BiS rings
I love how LotRO was built, you can do the same in the game too.
If you're good with your sneaking and mob avoidance, or you have a good team (for either as escort or for distraction), you can reach very far.
Hobbits were taken to Isengard on livestream as a server competition, for Eru's sake and several chickens have already seen Mordor in the past years. That means level 1, around level 120 big baddies.
Basically that's the design I prefer, and what I mentioned in the first post. Players should go everywhere, if they dare to face the consequences.
No to gating, and no to forced scaling, both are shitty concepts.
Sure you do, it's no more dangerous than the Shire.
It's an interesting statement. Then hobbits were the ones that walked into Mordor. Between them they had 1 magical sword (no training) and some cooking supplies. They managed to team with people way outside their League and had a meaning contribution to the outcome. That's more like scaled content to me. Thanks for pointing that out
It's horizontal progression :P
Frodo and the hobbits have chosen to give up size, strength and weapons training in favour of stealth, cooking, and magic resistence
Well, maybe they didn't choose to give up size....
While I believe Warzod's post was sarcastic, it's accurate. Exactly that would happen in a lame, scaled Middle-earth.
They were stealthy, teaming up with others, then sneaking again, avoiding mobs, searching for a forgotten backdoor while an entire army waged war as a distraction.
Also, not just "1 magical sword (no training)" Nanfoodle, besides the rope and the light they had one of the most powerful BiS rings
I love how LotRO was built, you can do the same in the game too.
If you're good with your sneaking and mob avoidance, or you have a good team (for either as escort or for distraction), you can reach very far.
Hobbits were taken to Isengard on livestream as a server competition, for Eru's sake and several chickens have already seen Mordor in the past years. That means level 1, around level 120 big baddies.
Basically that's the design I prefer, and what I mentioned in the first post. Players should go everywhere, if they dare to face the consequences.
No to gating, and no to forced scaling, both are shitty concepts.
I agree with this, in the idea of Open World Content. When it comes to things like world maps and open zones.. sure.. go out and wander, get stepped on by a giant.. that was grand fun in EQ. So by all means, I support this.
I disagree with this in the idea of Instance or dungeon style content, where someone can join a group for content they are well below level for, or woefully unprepared, Because then are imposing upon other people.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Open World. (Any map that would be Explorer/Open Zone)
No Gates, go Wherever you want.
Mobs still have levels of power, so some will be able to one hit kill you, just walking by.
Scale-Down only , so All Zones Remain Viable and Fun.
Instance Content. (Dungeons/Raids/Etc)
Hard Fixed Gates: Level/Gear/Flagging
No Scaling.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Mine is easier, and also more forgiving/liberal, hence my motto: option is king. As said earlier, either no scaling at all, or give it as a tool for players.
Open world:
- no gating, go anywhere you want
- fixed world, with all its dangers and challenges
(option, scaling tool in the players' hands, for those occasions of grouping with different level players, helping a lowbie in a mission without stomp it through, etc.
Just like CoH/CO has with mentor/sidekick and difficulty settings.
Plus, then the One Tamriel fanatics too could scale themselves 24/7, and play like a forced scaling game )
Instances:
-no gating, or maybe some mild gates*
-fixed mobs and bosses
(option, scaling tool in the players' hands.
Just like LotRO has it with most instances and raids - but not with Rift, thankfully)
*Mild gate is LotRO's minus 5 levels for example.
In a sort of "open world difficulty adjust" you can do quests higher levels above you, with the ceiling of 5. Mobs 5+ ahead easily shrug off your attacks, so better to sneak around them.
But, in an instance/raid you can't avoid them, maybe the fodder but surely not the bosses, so there's the mild gate:
if an instance has a level scale option of 50- for example (so it can be set anywhere between 50 and the cap, but the lowest it can offer is level 50 mobs), you can't enter unless you're at least level 45.
No other gating BS like classes, gear, flags, etc.
I think scaling should be optional. If you want it....use it. If you don't (in games that used to have progression especially) leave it off. Or make it so the first player you get to max level has no scaling, but you can use scale after that to play your favorite areas. I hate scaling in ESO because I'll pick up a quest in the zone I want to play in, and it takes me all over the damn world.
If you ever played EQ, and got too close to a sand giant, or a griffon you know fear....if you get too near most things in ESO you just easily kill it, and move on.
ESO is a terrible example of not what to do when advancing through content in an mmo. There is literally no risk in the game, no sence of danger, fear or excitement.
It's great on story but that's about it imo. Personally, the making of all zones available to all levels is just dumb and lazy.
Level scaling is sad imo, it's takes away one of the key components of what makes an Mmo an Mmo.
I think what the author is missing is that in open world SPG like Skyrim, you may be able to wonder into whatever hole you want, but you won't see the same difficulty of enemies. Difficulty of enemies populate based on level.
MMORPG's, because they're persistent worlds, cannot just start spawning differently mobs in an area because you walked into it. They can in an instance, but for the sake of discussion, let's ignore that for now.
The other problem with having a world scale is implementing challenging encounters. With the progression zone model, you can make a mob harder by increasing it's level. Then the fight becomes more like a traditional RPG fight where a win is done by skillful use of abilities and number crunching to see if you can out dps, sustain, mitigate what the higher leveled mob can dish out.
With ESO's approach, how do they make 1v1 PvE mob encounters challenging without tacking on a higher level on them? More mechanics to execute is one way, but developers wouldn't do that due to alienating the poor new player that wondered into an area where mobs have mechanics.
I love exploration, progression, and story. I want all of these things in my MMORPG. When ESO first released, I remember getting frustrated on the Fighters Guild quest where I had to fight this boss and she kept whooping my ass. But then I figured out her mechanic, start bursting those bubbles before they reached her and healed her, and ended up winning. I felt great satisfaction by the accomplishment and pride in the game I was playing. Now you can just faceroll unless you get outnumbered.
Then you have the other problem with ESO. I feel like people who play ESO are completionists just like I am. So I join the game, get to a public dungeon or group area and I can't complete it. No one is interested in running that group content when asked, and waiting around for someone to walk by that may not have paid attention to chat when you're asking for a group never happens either. Players do want to explore and do want to complete all of the objectives on the map. I get people not wanting to complete old open world content/public dungeons, so I wish they were made soloable for new skillful players to complete. Coming back and facerolling it as a high level isn't what I want.
This thing about games that scale are not hard enough makes me smile. I have yet to play any story mode, leveling content in any MMO that was hard. ESO has a ton of hard and challenging content. Sure the 3 starting areas, 4 zones per faction are easy. You do it for the story and the skill points. Get into the DLC content, Vet Dungeons, Trials, Cyrodiil and the like is fun and a challenge. Personally, I have never felt challenged in any leveling process.
Scaling is the worst thing that happened to mmos since f2p.
Scaling is gamey, ruins immersion, messes with sense of progression, feeling of accomplishment and all that. Scaling is trying to fix problems caused by the bad gamedesign of modern mmos, combined with the idea that all content must be utilised to the max (from a developers perspective).
Well in a single player game like Skyrim i hate that crap, i like to be able to go back to a dungeon and beat the snot out of them npc's when i gained some levels and gear, same with mmo's, i am fine with stuff being out of my range, i played Everquest since 2001 and not seen a fraction of the game world, and probably never will, but i am ok with it.
Comments
Sure you do, it's no more dangerous than the Shire.
What is your alternative to one of the most popular MMOs ever created?
Which is hanging by a thread , barley making the bills , and may shutter sooner than later
EQ ruined the MMORPG genre by making all their zones certain levels and so many foolish copycats followed.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Personally, I believe their system of Down-scaling was spot on, as you were always stronger being down-scaled, due to skills, runes, infusions, and the better your gear, the stronger you ended up being overall.
And this did make it so that content expanded as you leveled, you added Zones you could go to, you were not herded through content, and then stuck in the "End Game" like most other games. You could go anywhere and the content remained viable, like DE's, World Bosses, and other events, your entire gaming experience.
So, no matter what anyone says, I thought that was really a great part of GW2's Open World Exploration and social game play, that you never truly just out-leveled a zone. IIRC, when I first started playing, they did not up-level players for Core Zones, and Dungeons, so, there was also that sense of going into a zone that was way to powerful for you, knowing that if any mob caught you, they were going to mess you up (Not sure if that is the case any longer)
I want to make it clear, I am saying this BEFORE the upcoming DPS Balance Patch, so I have no idea how things will feel after that goes live.
group based mmo's need zones to be a specific level ranges.
i like both styles .
I disagree with this in the idea of Instance or dungeon style content, where someone can join a group for content they are well below level for, or woefully unprepared, Because then are imposing upon other people.
My Belief:
Open World.
(Any map that would be Explorer/Open Zone)
Instance Content.
(Dungeons/Raids/Etc)
If you ever played EQ, and got too close to a sand giant, or a griffon you know fear....if you get too near most things in ESO you just easily kill it, and move on.
It's great on story but that's about it imo. Personally, the making of all zones available to all levels is just dumb and lazy.
Level scaling is sad imo, it's takes away one of the key components of what makes an Mmo an Mmo.
MMORPG's, because they're persistent worlds, cannot just start spawning differently mobs in an area because you walked into it. They can in an instance, but for the sake of discussion, let's ignore that for now.
The other problem with having a world scale is implementing challenging encounters. With the progression zone model, you can make a mob harder by increasing it's level. Then the fight becomes more like a traditional RPG fight where a win is done by skillful use of abilities and number crunching to see if you can out dps, sustain, mitigate what the higher leveled mob can dish out.
With ESO's approach, how do they make 1v1 PvE mob encounters challenging without tacking on a higher level on them? More mechanics to execute is one way, but developers wouldn't do that due to alienating the poor new player that wondered into an area where mobs have mechanics.
I love exploration, progression, and story. I want all of these things in my MMORPG. When ESO first released, I remember getting frustrated on the Fighters Guild quest where I had to fight this boss and she kept whooping my ass. But then I figured out her mechanic, start bursting those bubbles before they reached her and healed her, and ended up winning. I felt great satisfaction by the accomplishment and pride in the game I was playing. Now you can just faceroll unless you get outnumbered.
Then you have the other problem with ESO. I feel like people who play ESO are completionists just like I am. So I join the game, get to a public dungeon or group area and I can't complete it. No one is interested in running that group content when asked, and waiting around for someone to walk by that may not have paid attention to chat when you're asking for a group never happens either. Players do want to explore and do want to complete all of the objectives on the map. I get people not wanting to complete old open world content/public dungeons, so I wish they were made soloable for new skillful players to complete. Coming back and facerolling it as a high level isn't what I want.
Scaling is gamey, ruins immersion, messes with sense of progression, feeling of accomplishment and all that. Scaling is trying to fix problems caused by the bad gamedesign of modern mmos, combined with the idea that all content must be utilised to the max (from a developers perspective).
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0