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AMD's One Two Punch

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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,127
    Ozmodan said:
    We have threadripper workstations at work, they are really not good gaming platforms.  

    An AMD 3000 serious CPU would be a much better choice for a gamer.  Personally I am waiting for Gen 3 AMD coming out this summer.  As to Intel, they are still a good gaming computer choice, but still no PCIE 4.0 which means upgrading peripherals that use that standard is not happening on any Intel system you buy.  A friend has a sample SSD he is testing that uses PCIE 4.0 and it is amazing loading games.
    First and second gen threadripper weren't good for gaming.  The latency if it had to jump across dies to reach memory was awful.  Third gen threadripper is a lot better, and decent at gaming.  It's a lot more expensive than third gen Ryzen, and not really any better at gaming, so there's no sense in buying it for a gaming rig.  But it's not really worse than third gen Ryzen at gaming, either.  That's a major advance, as most HEDT platforms have been much worse at gaming than the contemporary mainstream consumer equivalent.
    Ozmodan
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,127
    DMKano said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Can we all at least agree, this is a big hit on intel , on many different sides, pc media market, server market and enthusiast market. a xeon 24 core chip is $18k . it is crazy time for the pc market again and it is awesome ! 

    I hate intels iverpriced CPUs as much as anyone- but this wont have much of an impact at all in the server market.

    Companies that are buying new servers aren't going to buy a dead platform 
    Threadripper won't have an impact on the server market, outside of the portion of the high end workstation market that might previously have used a server to get the CPU performance they needed.  EPYC is the server chip, and that will sure have an impact on the server market.
    Ozmodan
  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    Quizzical said:
    DMKano said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Can we all at least agree, this is a big hit on intel , on many different sides, pc media market, server market and enthusiast market. a xeon 24 core chip is $18k . it is crazy time for the pc market again and it is awesome ! 

    I hate intels iverpriced CPUs as much as anyone- but this wont have much of an impact at all in the server market.

    Companies that are buying new servers aren't going to buy a dead platform 
    Threadripper won't have an impact on the server market, outside of the portion of the high end workstation market that might previously have used a server to get the CPU performance they needed.  EPYC is the server chip, and that will sure have an impact on the server market.
    AMD gained shares on the server market, they've already impacted the server market.

    2019

    "
    AMD CEO Lisa Su said on the earnings call, “In server, we had our highest quarterly CPU revenue since 2006 as strong second-generation Epyc processor demand drove a greater than 50% sequential increase in unit shipments and revenue.”

    "
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  • DAOWAceDAOWAce Member UncommonPosts: 351
    Do not buy last gen threadrippers, period.

    It's EOL; there's no upgrade path.

    The only way you can justify it is if you need the PCI-E lanes along with a high core count CPU, then sure, maybe.  But the chip design is still far inferior to Zen 2, both mainstream and "HEDT" parts, and you will run into performance degradation in certain workloads compared to any Ryzen 3000 series part.

    Just get a 3900x and cheaper x470 board for a similar price instead, with an actual upgrade path and far better performance, especially in gaming.  People who need the PCI-E lanes would've already bought a 3000 series threadripper anyway.
  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    edited February 11
    DAOWAce said:
    Do not buy last gen threadrippers, period.

    It's EOL; there's no upgrade path.

    The only way you can justify it is if you need the PCI-E lanes along with a high core count CPU, then sure, maybe.  But the chip design is still far inferior to Zen 2, both mainstream and "HEDT" parts, and you will run into performance degradation in certain workloads compared to any Ryzen 3000 series part.

    Just get a 3900x and cheaper x470 board for a similar price instead, with an actual upgrade path and far better performance, especially in gaming.  People who need the PCI-E lanes would've already bought a 3000 series threadripper anyway.
    I agree, threadrippers are specific purpose chip. I personally would build agen 2 threadripper platform so I can do real-time particle previews in Trapcode particular and render out movies tin minutes rather then hours. I also know of gamers who have threadrippers and they love it. 

    In the second video, you can watch the guy play Crysis on the cpu with no gpu render. 
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  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    edited February 11
    iii 
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  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
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  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,898
    DMKano said:
    I want to run 2 systems in one. Linux based with Windows and macOS on kvm. I can’t wait to get some money. lol. 

    You can do that easily without a threadripper though.


    Yep won’t go for a threadripper, but it would be nice. 
    Ozmodan
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,127
    DAOWAce said:
    Do not buy last gen threadrippers, period.

    It's EOL; there's no upgrade path.

    The only way you can justify it is if you need the PCI-E lanes along with a high core count CPU, then sure, maybe.  But the chip design is still far inferior to Zen 2, both mainstream and "HEDT" parts, and you will run into performance degradation in certain workloads compared to any Ryzen 3000 series part.

    Just get a 3900x and cheaper x470 board for a similar price instead, with an actual upgrade path and far better performance, especially in gaming.  People who need the PCI-E lanes would've already bought a 3000 series threadripper anyway.
    I wouldn't assume that any motherboard that you buy today will have much of an upgrade path.  AMD and Intel surely both plan to move to DDR5 soon, and that won't physically fit in motherboards built for DDR4.
    Ozmodan
  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    edited February 12
    Quizzical said:
    DAOWAce said:
    Do not buy last gen threadrippers, period.

    It's EOL; there's no upgrade path.

    The only way you can justify it is if you need the PCI-E lanes along with a high core count CPU, then sure, maybe.  But the chip design is still far inferior to Zen 2, both mainstream and "HEDT" parts, and you will run into performance degradation in certain workloads compared to any Ryzen 3000 series part.

    Just get a 3900x and cheaper x470 board for a similar price instead, with an actual upgrade path and far better performance, especially in gaming.  People who need the PCI-E lanes would've already bought a 3000 series threadripper anyway.
    I wouldn't assume that any motherboard that you buy today will have much of an upgrade path.  AMD and Intel surely both plan to move to DDR5 soon, and that won't physically fit in motherboards built for DDR4.
    I agree to an extent, these components now will most likely be the last components we will need in "our" lifetime. Even the second generation Threadripper with 24 cores and 48 threads will last a great while with the current software suites. 
    I've been using a FX8350 for over a decade now and upgrading from 7870 to rx580, I've added a few more years before I really need to build a completely new rig.

    A lot has to do on what the person's wants from the rig and are they looking forward to  skipping atleast 2 to 4 generations before rebuilding ...

    Also looking at prices, ddr 4 is crazy and ddr 5 will not push the price down more then 2or 3 percent, since Threadripper 3990x's platform isn't even being tapped into with pcei-e 4.0 or ddr 4 for maximum output. We are just seeing maybe 3% -10% of the 3990x's over all platform output at this moment. 

    Hardware is now available to great ultra realistic games and instant access to media creation, now what to do with it all since it's priced out of the reach of the core of pc gaming, the mid level gamer. 
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  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,127
    xD_Gaming said:
    I agree to an extent, these components now will most likely be the last components we will need in "our" lifetime. Even the second generation Threadripper with 24 cores and 48 threads will last a great while with the current software suites. 
    The 24- and 32-core second generation Threadripper parts were weird niche products that didn't fit many workloads, due to some of the dies being so far from memory.  They had legitimate uses for workloads that were going to do a ton of processing almost entirely from on-die caches.  But third gen Threadripper is vastly more versatile with its greatly improved memory structure.
    Ozmodan
  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    Quizzical said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    I agree to an extent, these components now will most likely be the last components we will need in "our" lifetime. Even the second generation Threadripper with 24 cores and 48 threads will last a great while with the current software suites. 
    The 24- and 32-core second generation Threadripper parts were weird niche products that didn't fit many workloads, due to some of the dies being so far from memory.  They had legitimate uses for workloads that were going to do a ton of processing almost entirely from on-die caches.  But third gen Threadripper is vastly more versatile with its greatly improved memory structure.
    Half way agree, since I've seen both first and second be used for streaming / gaming effortlessly. "Good for gaming" is kind of a misconception since the threadripper faults are at such a high computing tier, those faults don't really hamper compute power.

    Now if those faults are on a ryzen 5 thorugh 9, then yes , it would be a major issue.    
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  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    Third Gen str4x mobos will be 2-3 generations deep before the socket changes, much like AM3 AM3+ which was bulldozer through FX .
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  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    pardon meh sir, do you want that in 7nm or 5nm ... I'm starting to think Dr. Lisa Su is an alien from another planet <3 :D 
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
    Twitter : @xD_Gaming_Merch
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    "Dragons are tilly folly !"
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,127
    xD_Gaming said:
    Third Gen str4x mobos will be 2-3 generations deep before the socket changes, much like AM3 AM3+ which was bulldozer through FX .
    I think you're confused.  The Bulldozer processors were branded as FX.  For example, FX-8150 was Bulldozer.

    https://www.newegg.com/amd-fx-series-fx-8150/p/N82E16819103960

    Regardless, sTRX4 motherboards intrinsically require DDR4 memory.  As such, the transition to DDR5 will mean that they can no longer be used for subsequent CPUs.  That transition is coming soon.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    Quizzical said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Third Gen str4x mobos will be 2-3 generations deep before the socket changes, much like AM3 AM3+ which was bulldozer through FX .
    I think you're confused.  The Bulldozer processors were branded as FX.  For example, FX-8150 was Bulldozer.

    https://www.newegg.com/amd-fx-series-fx-8150/p/N82E16819103960

    Regardless, sTRX4 motherboards intrinsically require DDR4 memory.  As such, the transition to DDR5 will mean that they can no longer be used for subsequent CPUs.  That transition is coming soon.
    I totally agree that DDR5 memory is coming soon, just that how big a deal is that?  I still use DD3 on my motherboard.  DDR4 memory will be around for quite some time.
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,437
    Ozmodan said:
    Quizzical said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Third Gen str4x mobos will be 2-3 generations deep before the socket changes, much like AM3 AM3+ which was bulldozer through FX .
    I think you're confused.  The Bulldozer processors were branded as FX.  For example, FX-8150 was Bulldozer.

    https://www.newegg.com/amd-fx-series-fx-8150/p/N82E16819103960

    Regardless, sTRX4 motherboards intrinsically require DDR4 memory.  As such, the transition to DDR5 will mean that they can no longer be used for subsequent CPUs.  That transition is coming soon.
    I totally agree that DDR5 memory is coming soon, just that how big a deal is that?  I still use DD3 on my motherboard.  DDR4 memory will be around for quite some time.
    It's not that big of a deal, but it likely prevents you from upgrading your CPU without also switching motherboard and RAM.
    QuizzicalOzmodan
     
  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    edited February 16
    Quizzical said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Third Gen str4x mobos will be 2-3 generations deep before the socket changes, much like AM3 AM3+ which was bulldozer through FX .
    I think you're confused.  The Bulldozer processors were branded as FX.  For example, FX-8150 was Bulldozer.

    https://www.newegg.com/amd-fx-series-fx-8150/p/N82E16819103960

    Regardless, sTRX4 motherboards intrinsically require DDR4 memory.  As such, the transition to DDR5 will mean that they can no longer be used for subsequent CPUs.  That transition is coming soon.
    definitely confused. I looked at my older components and I went from Phenom 9850X Black addition to fx4130  then  and then to a fx8350 Black Addition

    I'm 100% on this : you are over thinkingg the ram. Many people can do max setting using ddr3, I highly doubt dd4  will do anything really impacting for gaming. Game designers rarely make games that are not playable by mid level pc gamers. 

    I wouldn't even worry about ddr 5 until bus speeds can catch up to what is available currently. the reality of ram is : everything loads faster that is about it.


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    "Dragons are tilly folly !"
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,061
    edited February 16
    Phenom was the generation prior to Bulldozer...

    ...and RAM speed is about a lot more than stuff just loading faster. 

    Quiz often overthinks things, but at least that implies that he is ~thinking~, and not just spewing random drivel.
    Ozmodan
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,127
    xD_Gaming said:
    Quizzical said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Third Gen str4x mobos will be 2-3 generations deep before the socket changes, much like AM3 AM3+ which was bulldozer through FX .
    I think you're confused.  The Bulldozer processors were branded as FX.  For example, FX-8150 was Bulldozer.

    https://www.newegg.com/amd-fx-series-fx-8150/p/N82E16819103960

    Regardless, sTRX4 motherboards intrinsically require DDR4 memory.  As such, the transition to DDR5 will mean that they can no longer be used for subsequent CPUs.  That transition is coming soon.
    definitely confused. I looked at my older components and I went from Phenom 9850X Black addition to fx4130  then  and then to a fx8350 Black Addition

    I'm 100% on this : you are over thinkingg the ram. Many people can do max setting using ddr3, I highly doubt dd4  will do anything really impacting for gaming. Game designers rarely make games that are not playable by mid level pc gamers. 

    I wouldn't even worry about ddr 5 until bus speeds can catch up to what is available currently. the reality of ram is : everything loads faster that is about it.


    You don't seem to be following my argument.  At some point soon, AMD will move from DDR4 to DDR5 memory.  At that point, subsequent CPUs will have a DDR5 memory controller and not a DDR4 memory controller.  That means that it will need to be paired with DDR5 memory and not DDR4.  An sTRX4 motherboard requires DDR4 memory.  You can't put DDR5 memory into DDR4 slots, as it won't physically fit, and wouldn't work even if it did physically fit.  So DDR5-based CPUs won't be able to use an sTRX4 motherboard.  It might help if you realize that the 4 in sTRX4 is to denote DDR4.  It's the same for AM4.

    AMD and Intel absolutely want to move to DDR5 once it is ready.  That will bring higher throughput, lower voltages, higher density, and eventually lower prices for a given quantity of memory.  Those are all good things.

    Once AMD moves to DDR5, that will probably mean no more CPUs will release for sTRX4.  Instead, there will be a new sTRX5 socket or something like that, and that's what subsequent Threadripper CPUs will need.

    The only way around this is if AMD were to make both DDR4 and DDR5 versions of the same CPU, such as by putting both DDR4 and DDR5 memory controllers on the same chip.  While it's possible to do that, it's cost++ to do so.  Normally, that is only done in CPUs to allow a single chip to serve two very different markets, such as a laptop chip having DDR* and LPDDR* memory controllers.

    AMD could do that if they really wanted to, but I'd bet against it.  For starters, Threadripper is a low volume product that just doesn't justify the sort of investment that more lucrative markets would.  Additionally, having more CPU cores means that you need more memory bandwidth to use them all at once, and Threadripper has really a lot of cores, so it will benefit from DDR5 more than most other markets.

    Besides, even if AMD did put in the work to offer multiple memory controllers, not many people would even want to pair DDR4 with a future Threadripper CPU intended for DDR5.  Not needing to buy a new motherboard saves a large fraction of your budget if you're looking at a $200 CPU upgrade.  It's not such a large fraction of your budget if you're looking at a $2000 CPU upgrade.  If you can justify $2000 for a CPU upgrade, you can probably also justify throwing another $400 at a new motherboard to get DDR5 support and perhaps newer versions of USB, PCI Express, or whatever else they come up with in that time.
  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,686
    edited February 16
    Quizzical said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Quizzical said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    Third Gen str4x mobos will be 2-3 generations deep before the socket changes, much like AM3 AM3+ which was bulldozer through FX .
    I think you're confused.  The Bulldozer processors were branded as FX.  For example, FX-8150 was Bulldozer.

    https://www.newegg.com/amd-fx-series-fx-8150/p/N82E16819103960

    Regardless, sTRX4 motherboards intrinsically require DDR4 memory.  As such, the transition to DDR5 will mean that they can no longer be used for subsequent CPUs.  That transition is coming soon.
    definitely confused. I looked at my older components and I went from Phenom 9850X Black addition to fx4130  then  and then to a fx8350 Black Addition

    I'm 100% on this : you are over thinkingg the ram. Many people can do max setting using ddr3, I highly doubt dd4  will do anything really impacting for gaming. Game designers rarely make games that are not playable by mid level pc gamers. 

    I wouldn't even worry about ddr 5 until bus speeds can catch up to what is available currently. the reality of ram is : everything loads faster that is about it.


    You don't seem to be following my argument.  At some point soon, AMD will move from DDR4 to DDR5 memory.  At that point, subsequent CPUs will have a DDR5 memory controller and not a DDR4 memory controller.  That means that it will need to be paired with DDR5 memory and not DDR4.  An sTRX4 motherboard requires DDR4 memory.  You can't put DDR5 memory into DDR4 slots, as it won't physically fit, and wouldn't work even if it did physically fit.  So DDR5-based CPUs won't be able to use an sTRX4 motherboard.  It might help if you realize that the 4 in sTRX4 is to denote DDR4.  It's the same for AM4.

    AMD and Intel absolutely want to move to DDR5 once it is ready.  That will bring higher throughput, lower voltages, higher density, and eventually lower prices for a given quantity of memory.  Those are all good things.

    Once AMD moves to DDR5, that will probably mean no more CPUs will release for sTRX4.  Instead, there will be a new sTRX5 socket or something like that, and that's what subsequent Threadripper CPUs will need.

    The only way around this is if AMD were to make both DDR4 and DDR5 versions of the same CPU, such as by putting both DDR4 and DDR5 memory controllers on the same chip.  While it's possible to do that, it's cost++ to do so.  Normally, that is only done in CPUs to allow a single chip to serve two very different markets, such as a laptop chip having DDR* and LPDDR* memory controllers.

    AMD could do that if they really wanted to, but I'd bet against it.  For starters, Threadripper is a low volume product that just doesn't justify the sort of investment that more lucrative markets would.  Additionally, having more CPU cores means that you need more memory bandwidth to use them all at once, and Threadripper has really a lot of cores, so it will benefit from DDR5 more than most other markets.

    Besides, even if AMD did put in the work to offer multiple memory controllers, not many people would even want to pair DDR4 with a future Threadripper CPU intended for DDR5.  Not needing to buy a new motherboard saves a large fraction of your budget if you're looking at a $200 CPU upgrade.  It's not such a large fraction of your budget if you're looking at a $2000 CPU upgrade.  If you can justify $2000 for a CPU upgrade, you can probably also justify throwing another $400 at a new motherboard to get DDR5 support and perhaps newer versions of USB, PCI Express, or whatever else they come up with in that time.
    You wrote book, about ddr 5, missing my point entirely, for current gaming  ddr 3 and ddr4 are plenty of performance. I could care less on what AMD and Intel want, as there want's aren't my or he gamer's needs :) . People who clamor to the next shiny in technology are the people who can afford it, and those people aren't entry to mid level pc gamers.

    you kind went of the discussion path down a rabbit hole no one else went down :D  
    Asm0deus
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
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  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,240
    Dunno but I was under the impression ddr5 is like 2ish years away so is that soon? 

    Pretty sure ryzen 4000 will be ddr4 still and maybe we see ryzen 5000 with ddr5 so dunno but isn't this whole tangent a little off track in this thread since it mostly about current or soon to be current tech in a amd v intel manner.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,127
    Asm0deus said:
    Dunno but I was under the impression ddr5 is like 2ish years away so is that soon? 

    Pretty sure ryzen 4000 will be ddr4 still and maybe we see ryzen 5000 with ddr5 so dunno but isn't this whole tangent a little off track in this thread since it mostly about current or soon to be current tech in a amd v intel manner.
    Fifth generation Threadripper is probably at least two years away, too.  If you're expecting to have new upgrades for the old motherboard launch well into the future, then yeah, that's soon.  sTRX4 isn't going to have a long upgrade path like LGA 775 or even Socket AM4.
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