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New World Community Q&A Looks at PvP

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  • biaxilbiaxil Member UncommonPosts: 26
    crankked said:
    biaxil said:

    Tiller said:


    biaxil said:



    Alomar said:





    Tyserie said:



    Majority of players in MMORPG play MMORPG because they are PvE players. Look on Black Desert, majority people there doesn't give a f about PvP, they just play it like PvE game. If they want play PvP, they go play BF or PUBG. Most people wants, good story, lots of nice loot/items and great dungeons and that's it. PvP in MMORPG is overrated and PvP players self will in most cases not keep the game and servers online. Focus on PvE and game can be successful, because if its good PvE players will pay for it.






    That's not even remotely true, there is a very large pvp focused mmo crowd. It's just that the lack of good mmo pvp options, whether it be new titles or stale/repetitive pvp content in old mmo's has led to mmo pvpers needing to look elsewhere in recent years. This has led to many mmo pvpers playing battle royales as you mentioned. Yet, we still play mmo's or are willing to play new ones that cater to our interests.






    Yea, because on the rare occassion a pvp focused game comes out that is open world, carebears for some reason decide to play it, and then complain about the pvp, and scream until devs dumb down the game, and then the game dies.

    Usually there are other factors that attribute to a games death. Most times it was already in its death-throws.

    Case in point, Aion. They tied character advancement to PvP in the Abys, thing is no one but PKers were there most times and it was hard to get a group together to do content there because even though people don't mind PvP, it was a headache to get anything done and took longer because of the few who wanted to stop anyone from progressing at all. Not only was that aspect shat, the game was grindy AF and we paid a sub for it. Eventually folks realized they could spend there time elsewhere and the game went f2p and is pretty much dead now.

    SWG, when they did the galactic civil war update that allowed you to attack Storm troopers with no TEF penalty, but also added battlegrounds for owpvp. People were angry and said they would leave, eventually no one cared and went back to their business, but the game died for other reasons. The battlegrounds were popular for a few weeks and eventually no one cared.

    BDO level 49 pvp quest. For years folks wanted that enabled as a buffer like it was in the Korean version. Most PKrs cried about how they would leave the game if that was enabled. Eventually it was, yet there was no player uprising like they touted and people continue to filter in an out of that game none the wiser. Most of the PKrs were banned for speed hacking anyways (you can find plenty of videos on that)

    I imagine most of the folks complaining such as yourself are the vocal minority at this point and the games success or failure is not tied to whether you have the ability to opt into pvp or not.

    I remember years ago while Darkfall was in development how some people thought it was going to be the best game for owpvp, and it would beat WoW because of course everyone loves being PKed when on a PvE quest. Well we can see how that worked out.

    There seems to be two core groups at odds with some of us stuck in the middle. Those who don't PvP, and those who only want PvP, and then us in the middle who pvp but don't feel the need to enforce our playstyle onto everyone else while getting shouted down by both sides.

    Amazon was smart not to remove PvP all together and take the middle ground. Make it an option that you can enable on the fly. You now have a choice as to how you want to play their game.

    There was a time when player looting was a thing, I was there. At the time it was how it was, so we just dealt with it. We all had moments of frustration over losing shit in a heated battle. This isn't one of those games were you lose days of work in one bad moment, no big deal. Play it or don't, no one will care.



    Lol, no one ever said that "Darkfall would beat WOW." That's a complete non-sequitur. They aren't even in the same realm of mmo's. I played Darkfall from launch to when it almost died. The game started to get boring when they installed instant travel portals, and it made the open world trivial, then big all the big guilds nut-cupped and warring stopped. This is when people stopped playing.

    People who like wow's instanced gameplay would not like this style. Maybe they are the gamers that went to DF and complained that travelling took too long, so asked for it to be dumbed down and ruin the game.

    New World pvp mechanic will be exploited terribly. No one will ever opt in when it is not in their advantage to do so. This game will flop hard, due to its exploitable mechanics.
    Well, if "no one ever opts in unless it benefits them", I guess we can agree that the PVP-only crowd is a substantial vocal minority, right?

    If the game flops because there aren't enough of you, we can finally put that argument to rest.....
    No, you're totally missing the point. People will follow the meta, which would be flagged off when harvesting in areas that are supposed to be high risk high reward. If this is not the case,  and people can gather high reward items with no risk,  the economy will be ruined due to everyone having top gear pretty quickly.  The game was designed for pvp, and now with flags you have a game where no one will have it on,  unless they will have favorable numbers and prepared for a fight. This game doesn't have the pve content nor lore to sustain interest from solely pve players. The game is now an abomination and is going to fail unless they delay the game and fundamentally change it to be a pve game.  Then it can become a themepark game like all of the other generic pve games out there but with an Amazon label on it. 

    Loved EQ Classic and hates that carebears had it changed.

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,886
    Bloodaxes said:
    Why dont games follow EVE model.

    Safe areas . . . For PvE without risk
    Neutral areas . . . For PvE with PvP but not full loot
    Unsafe areas . . . For PvE with PvP full loot.

    Key thing is to tie top gear that depends on items from all areas and to make the areas interdependant. 

    So people can enjoy any type of playstyle.

    Raids in safe areas, territory fights in neutral areas, global politics in unsafe areas and high risk/reward. 
    It's simple. The areas where there's pvp always has the best stuff. You're solving nothing by having "safe" areas when those players will eventually be forced to go there to progress.
    The key part is to make all areas interdependent. 

    Essentially to progress your character you need stuff from all 3 zones to fully progress, any person can find their niche in any zone.

    Safe areas for example with raids can get top armor. Middle area is for weapons/mounts, unsafe area is jewelry. Then you can have battlegrounds and arenas in certain areas that yield top potions . . . Etc.

    Hence, a player could live in one area and trade in markets for anything they need. 
     

    EVE does a great job of allowing people to thrive in all locations and not be blocked in advancement. Every thing in EVE you do is valuable in some way because it usually produces something that someone needs. 

    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member RarePosts: 4,202
    Bloodaxes said:
    Why dont games follow EVE model.

    Safe areas . . . For PvE without risk
    Neutral areas . . . For PvE with PvP but not full loot
    Unsafe areas . . . For PvE with PvP full loot.

    Key thing is to tie top gear that depends on items from all areas and to make the areas interdependant. 

    So people can enjoy any type of playstyle.

    Raids in safe areas, territory fights in neutral areas, global politics in unsafe areas and high risk/reward. 
    It's simple. The areas where there's pvp always has the best stuff. You're solving nothing by having "safe" areas when those players will eventually be forced to go there to progress.
    The key part is to make all areas interdependent. 

    Essentially to progress your character you need stuff from all 3 zones to fully progress, any person can find their niche in any zone.

    Safe areas for example with raids can get top armor. Middle area is for weapons/mounts, unsafe area is jewelry. Then you can have battlegrounds and arenas in certain areas that yield top potions . . . Etc.

    Hence, a player could live in one area and trade in markets for anything they need. 
     

    EVE does a great job of allowing people to thrive in all locations and not be blocked in advancement. Every thing in EVE you do is valuable in some way because it usually produces something that someone needs. 

    Well that still forces different playstyles into areas they won't want to do.

    So i digress. That is not the best solution for me.

  • ohioastroohioastro Member UncommonPosts: 529
    I'd wager that they had a lot of data to support their decision. The open world pvp gang have no one to blame but themselves if the data showed that people used the format to repeatedly target new and low level players.  

    I'm perfectly willing to do realm vs realm pvp, but I won't touch open world pvp with a bargepole. I prefer actual competition, thank you very much, not having the gear advantages from MMO leveling used to one shot some new player trying to harvest herbs.

    There is just a basic conflict between the structure of a MMO, where extended play makes characters stronger, and pvp, where matches that are fun for both players are even. Add in the open world ambush factor, and gangpiles, and you have a style of play that no one likes to be subjected to.

    Given the resources going into the game, I suspect that there will be plenty of pve content on release. They may fail anyhow with these changes, but I might give it a try. No way I'll even do a free download of a gankbox.
    ultimateduck
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,979
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,068
    Bloodaxes said:
    Why dont games follow EVE model.

    Safe areas . . . For PvE without risk
    Neutral areas . . . For PvE with PvP but not full loot
    Unsafe areas . . . For PvE with PvP full loot.

    Key thing is to tie top gear that depends on items from all areas and to make the areas interdependant. 

    So people can enjoy any type of playstyle.

    Raids in safe areas, territory fights in neutral areas, global politics in unsafe areas and high risk/reward. 
    It's simple. The areas where there's pvp always has the best stuff. You're solving nothing by having "safe" areas when those players will eventually be forced to go there to progress.
    The key part is to make all areas interdependent. 

    Essentially to progress your character you need stuff from all 3 zones to fully progress, any person can find their niche in any zone.

    Safe areas for example with raids can get top armor. Middle area is for weapons/mounts, unsafe area is jewelry. Then you can have battlegrounds and arenas in certain areas that yield top potions . . . Etc.

    Hence, a player could live in one area and trade in markets for anything they need. 
     

    EVE does a great job of allowing people to thrive in all locations and not be blocked in advancement. Every thing in EVE you do is valuable in some way because it usually produces something that someone needs. 

    Knight Online did that. It was a shit game. Sorry, forcing people to do things they don't want to do is bad. I think the best they can do is what GW1 and GW2 do, PvP in arenas with everyone at the same equipment level. It makes skill much more important. 
    bcbully

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
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  • ohioastroohioastro Member UncommonPosts: 529
    bcbully said:
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



    I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 703
    ohioastro said:
    bcbully said:
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



    I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.

    Everyone has the same starting position, some people just make it to the end faster.

    I get what mcbully is saying. There will always be an advantage for someone. Sometimes you have the advantage, sometimes it's your opponent. Waiting for a fair fight is silly.

    I also get what you are saying. It sucks when the only world you have to PvE in is riddled with people who want to PvP.

    You are both right.
    bcbully
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,803
    edited January 21
    Grintch said:
    I don't see what the big deal is. Turn on your pvp flag and kill yourselves to your hearts content. The pve people don't want to be bothered so don't turn on the flag. Or, just seperate servers.  Win-Win-Win.



    The problem is that actual PvPers don't care about being attacked or killed as much. And the people shouting the loudest about this flagging thing are the ones who are only interested in harassing someone they can actually upset with their antics.
    bcbully

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    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,583
    ohioastro said:
    bcbully said:
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



    I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.

    Everyone has the same starting position, some people just make it to the end faster.

    I get what mcbully is saying. There will always be an advantage for someone. Sometimes you have the advantage, sometimes it's your opponent. Waiting for a fair fight is silly.

    I also get what you are saying. It sucks when the only world you have to PvE in is riddled with people who want to PvP.

    You are both right.
    The thing is that all different types of advantages are not equal nor do they necessarily happen organically. The classic unfair advantage that everyone focuses on is the much higher level ganker who deliberately and systematically seeks low level players to grief.

    That's much different than the large group vs. small group advantage, the class / skill advantage - stealth being the classic advantage (and one of the things that ESO did right when they gave everyone stealth) or even level advantages when they happen organically in random encounters. That's just how PvP is in the types of games (RPGs) that have progression and that's OK.

    PvP in MMO is not even-playing-field, shooter or BR PvP. Never was and never will be.

    What people need to stop doing though is characterizing all MMO PvP as the calculated griefing that some asshats do or conversely denying that it's a significant problem. That type of griefing hurts PvP to the point that many players who could be attracted to PvP games just won't do it any more because that griefing is common enough, tolerated by PvP game developers apparently judging by their tiny wrist slapping schemes to curb it, and excused by the larger PvP community who should be extra motivated to weed out the asshats since it's the PvP games we like that are hurt by it.
    Azaron_NightbladeultimateduckRexKushmankitarad
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  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 703
    Iselin said:
    ohioastro said:
    bcbully said:
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



    I find it funny when people with huge in game advantages pretend that they're interested in actual competition. I play plenty of competitive board games, none of which involve giving one player a much better starting position than others.

    Everyone has the same starting position, some people just make it to the end faster.

    I get what mcbully is saying. There will always be an advantage for someone. Sometimes you have the advantage, sometimes it's your opponent. Waiting for a fair fight is silly.

    I also get what you are saying. It sucks when the only world you have to PvE in is riddled with people who want to PvP.

    You are both right.
    The thing is that all different types of advantages are not equal nor do they necessarily happen organically. The classic unfair advantage that everyone focuses on is the much higher level ganker who deliberately and systematically seeks low level players to grief.

    That's much different than the large group vs. small group advantage, the class / skill advantage - stealth being the classic advantage (and one of the things that ESO did right when they gave everyone stealth) or even level advantages when they happen organically in random encounters. That's just how PvP is in the types of games (RPGs) that have progression and that's OK.

    PvP in MMO is not even-playing-field, shooter or BR PvP. Never was and never will be.

    What people need to stop doing though is characterizing all MMO PvP as the calculated griefing that some asshats do or conversely denying that it's a significant problem. That type of griefing hurts PvP to the point that many players who could be attracted to PvP games just won't do it any more because that griefing is common enough, tolerated by PvP game developers apparently judging by their tiny wrist slapping schemes to curb it, and excused by the larger PvP community who should be extra motivated to weed out the asshats since it's the PvP games we like that are hurt by it.

    Which is why a game that has both PvP and PvE need to keep those worlds separate. A PvEer may dip his/her toes in PvP and like it if it was on their terms. Getting ganked while fighting a mob and gathering crafting materials sucks for most.
  • TweFojuTweFoju Member UncommonPosts: 1,213

    raapnaap said:

    Enjoy your new PvE game with 6 months of PvE content development time.



    Someone wake me up in 10 years when a big budget company finally makes a decent open world PvP MMO.



    sadly this will unlikely to happen, the demand for open world pvp ( especially full loot ) is nothing compared to the pve market.
    botrytis

    So What Now?

  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,929
    bcbully said:
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



    bcbully, just give it up man.  You're never going to see any significant MMO with all open world, full loot PvP.  You're wasting your time in the wrong genre.  You have been for years.  I mean, you're as free to post as any of us, but it's just painful to watch.
    bcbullybotrytis
  • illutianillutian Member UncommonPosts: 287
    Well...the MMOs that focused exclusively on PVP haven't exactly done great...Darkfall; dead twice working on a third death, PlanetSide; died, PlanetSide 2; turned up MTX to 11 to get the last bit of cash before shutting down
    ....and, honestly, that's the only two games that come to mind that exclusively focused on PVP. The rest have focused on PVE with PVP attached to the side. Even EVE Online is focus(ing) on PVE.
    botrytis

    Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 9,979
    bcbully said:
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



    bcbully, just give it up man.  You're never going to see any significant MMO with all open world, full loot PvP.  You're wasting your time in the wrong genre.  You have been for years.  I mean, you're as free to post as any of us, but it's just painful to watch.
    Give what up? I’ve never played a full loot mmorpg outside EVE for a week. 

    Wasting? Nah man I had the gaming experience ever (since 5) in Wushu ffa wold pvp. A wonderful way to wast time. I still remember the beautiful Individual  city music.

    Not sure you even tried to rebut my comment.
  • SplitStream13SplitStream13 Member UncommonPosts: 160
    bcbully said:
    bcbully said:
    You know what’s really funny? Every time I hear someone say I don’t like wpvp because I prefer real skill, real competition. Pure comedy. 



    bcbully, just give it up man.  You're never going to see any significant MMO with all open world, full loot PvP.  You're wasting your time in the wrong genre.  You have been for years.  I mean, you're as free to post as any of us, but it's just painful to watch.
    Give what up? I’ve never played a full loot mmorpg outside EVE for a week. 

    Wasting? Nah man I had the gaming experience ever (since 5) in Wushu ffa wold pvp. A wonderful way to wast time. I still remember the beautiful Individual  city music.

    Not sure you even tried to rebut my comment.
    Given that the industry (MMORPG) moved away from open-world pvp should be enough to refute any comment you've ever made in support to ow pvp. 

    If you still need to scratch that itch, there's like a hundred battle-royale games out there, lol. And they are a lot more fun than OW MMORPG PvP. Even I play Apex Legends as a main game right now due to limited free time lol.
    bcbully
  • elveoneelveone Member RarePosts: 280
    Nyctelios said:
    elveone said:
    Nyctelios said:
    elveone said:
    Mordhau PvP is a blast with a high skill learning curve. Implement that in new world and I will check it out.
    But you'll still wander around aimlessly searching for someone toggled on.
    And the alternative to that would be wandering around aimlessly trying to find someone at all because people would not play the game at all. What you are complaining about in reality is more players playing the damned game.
    Speak for yourself. As it seems there was a lot of people wanting the game for what it was.
    You are literally arguing with mathematics - in a system where everyone tags themselves for PvP the PvP players are tagged for PvP and the PvE players are not tagged for PvP. In a system where there is a forced open world PvP there are no PvE players really. So if you are wandering around aimlessly searching for someone with PvP toggled on in a mixed game then in a PvP only game you would just be going around aimlessly searching for anyone. And while a PvE player who dabbles in PvP could potentially wander around a PvP-only game the same player is infinitely more likely to turn on PvP in a toggled-to-PvP game with PvE content.
    No. I'm just saying nobody speaks for the whole gaming community. You can speak for yourself or show some actual data.

    That issue, and many others you claim the game would have, without data, could be fixed simply by level design.
    So level design will make people not quit the game when they are forced to do an activity they don't want to do? Or is level design magically going to increase the total number of players that want to PvP? What are you saying exactly?
    bcbully
  • DatcydeDatcyde Member UncommonPosts: 568
    edited January 27
    Balanced PvP means that there is a PvP gain and a PvP loss, don’t drop loot on loss that’s fine but at least lose some freakin EXP come on now, I would also put a chance on loot drop rate on loss with a low percentage that you can’t drop 1-3 Items, it’s like the devs never played PvP games before IDE also like to add that everyone Likes PVE.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 703
    Given that the industry (MMORPG) moved away from open-world pvp should be enough to refute any comment you've ever made in support to ow pvp. 

    If you still need to scratch that itch, there's like a hundred battle-royale games out there, lol. And they are a lot more fun than OW MMORPG PvP. Even I play Apex Legends as a main game right now due to limited free time lol.

    Two of the most anticipated MMOs being developed are PvP based. Crowfall and Camelot Unchained. Most of the other games in development have people heavily interested in how PvP will be handled because they want PvP.

    Datcyde said:
    Balanced PvP means that there is a PvP gain and a PvP loss, don’t drop loot on loss that’s fine but at least lose some freakin EXP come on now, I would also put a chance on loot drop rate on loss with a low percentage that you can’t drop 1-3 Items, it’s like the devs never played PvP games before IDE also like to add that everyone Likes PVE.

    You don't have to have personal loss to have balanced PvP. A loss can revolve around territory by losing a keep or tower. You can have successful PvP revolve around gains. I kill you, I get exp... you don't necessarily have to lose exp to make the experience worth it for me. I think most people would be open to PvP if it revolved around gains and not losses.

    DAoC had a great all reward, no personal loss PvP setup.
  • ErevusErevus Member UncommonPosts: 118


    Nope. "Flagging" for PvP should be done immediately upon entering a PvP zone, which should be separate from the PvE zone. It's pretty irritating having a bunch of unattackable PvE players in the middle of a PvP battle.



    I think that's awesome.
    Having a rest on my journey throughout the land while eating popcorn and watching PvPers getting killed ? PRICELESS !!!
    "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom. (Death)”
    ― Terry Pratchett,


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