Think you missed my point. I play both pve an pvp myself. Most people don't just play one. Forcing something on players at the end that you didn't do the entire time is a bad design. It is usually a lazy design because the developers are hoping that the pvp will take place of them having to design more stuff to keep players engaged.
There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.
Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.
For most players this won't matter because they won't reach end game. Oh they might play for years, but expansions will prevent them from reaching it because they keep taking breaks. And by the time they do reach game, if it still bothers them, they will have sunk enough money into it for it to be financially viable. And for hte PvP-focused players, who I expect will complain UNTIL end game, we have to give htem things to do in the optional PvP FFA zones on the way to end game.
End game isn't what it survives on. It survives on the PVE journey with small PvP skirmishes for those who want to do PvP. Most of the development resources are going to content development. PvP is like a side quest. PvP-focused players who play it will be hybrids, not enthusiasts. Most Enthusiasts will leave early because there will be too much PvE and too many levels to end game. It wil lget a lot of complaints from them.
What I'm saying is safezones are important part of PvE in PvP open world. Safezones make it possible. Without them the whole MMORPG deteriorates to become MMOPVP. It becomes too PvP, so it fails to be RPG, I think. Unless it's designed to be MMOPVP specifically, it'll collapse far faster into financial ruin.
I'm not saying what you bring up ISN'T a problem. It would be for some players. I"ll take the good with the bad I guess. The aim isn't to remove all the bad or remove all the complaints, it's to have something can financially survive while also preserving its take on PvE/PvP open world MMORPG (not MMOPVP).
I am not sure if people know this, or remember this, but one of things that made WoW such a massive success was that the Developers were Gamers. Some of the developers of WoW, where very hardcore players of EQ, and they lived and breathed building the game they wanted to play.
And that I believe is what made WoW the juggernaut it became, it was made by gamers for gamers.
I know things went a little wonky when Smeldy said "Gamers don't know what they want" and I think more modern MMO developers have come to take this route directly, where they hire people to make a game that do not in fact play games, because they, like some of the players, have begin to break game design down to a science as opposed to an art, and why little things that would seem painfully obvious to any gamer, seem to delude them.
Such I guess is the nature of the game.
I disagree about the WoW was so massively successful because it had EQ gamers on their team....
WoW benefited from a perfect storm, cable internet just started becoming a normal thing for a lot of people, computer parts to build gaming rigs became accessible and mostly affordable.. OG mmos were getting old and stale then a new game with good graphics from a popular IP popped up and everyone decided to give it a shot.... then came all the new to the internet gaming scene people and massive communities blossomed which helped the game maintain to grow and keep pumping out content.
Many WoW players who played for it's entire life will admit one of the main reasons they stayed so long was the friends they made in game, they didn't want to leave them.
You can disagree, but that would show you were not following the surrounding events around WoW.
Believe it or not, WoW's start was in fact very humble, it took WoW 3 years to finally hit it's growth peak, so there was no "Perfect Storm" going on here.
It was competing against EQ, which was the juggernaut of the era, and EQ just did a total graphics overhaul, which made the game look far more modern than it's age would indicate.
The thing was, simply put, EQ's developers, under Smedly, felt that since they really had the monopoly on what was the MMO market at the time, they could do whatever they wanted, and their communities acted accordingly, hence also the mentality of "Love it or Leave it" that some MMO players still possess.
Truth was, pure and simple, Blizzard sought out some of the best Developers and Players in EQ (and I suppose other games) and asked them to help them make the best game, and they did.
They took all the things that gamers had been asking for in EQ, and put that into WoW, and then the developers would log in and play the game with the people. They got to know the community on a private and personal level as player to player, learned what make their communities tick, and the why's and how's of what would keep things going in the right way.
So, no, if you thought it was hardware or internet access, or something along those lines, you would be wrong, because if it was that simple, all the others games would have also seen an uptick, and that was not the case at all.
It was pure and simple, WoW was made by gamers for gamers. That was why it rocked.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
PS and PS2 are odd ducks in the MMO space. For one thing their RPG part is minimal and most people refer to them as MMOFPS not MMORPGs. They have much more in common with shooters than with RPGs.
I was about to write the exact same thing.
People still don't really understand what "rpg mechanics" actually mean.
Even commenting on the person above who stated that it's "player vs player not toon vs toon" no, it's actually "toon vs toon" in a strict rpg sense.
The whole idea is it's the character's abilities not all the player.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Think you missed my point. I play both pve an pvp myself. Most people don't just play one. Forcing something on players at the end that you didn't do the entire time is a bad design. It is usually a lazy design because the developers are hoping that the pvp will take place of them having to design more stuff to keep players engaged.
There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.
Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.
For most players this won't matter because they won't reach end game. Oh they might play for years, but expansions will prevent them from reaching it because they keep taking breaks. And by the time they do reach game, if it still bothers them, they will have sunk enough money into it for it to be financially viable. And for hte PvP-focused players, who I expect will complain UNTIL end game, we have to give htem things to do in the optional PvP FFA zones on the way to end game.
End game isn't what it survives on. It survives on the PVE journey with small PvP skirmishes for those who want to do PvP. Most of the development resources are going to content development. PvP is like a side quest. PvP-focused players who play it will be hybrids, not enthusiasts. Most Enthusiasts will leave early because there will be too much PvE and too many levels to end game. It wil lget a lot of complaints from them.
What I'm saying is safezones are important part of PvE in PvP open world. Safezones make it possible. Without them the whole MMORPG deteriorates to become MMOPVP. It becomes too PvP, so it fails to be RPG, I think. Unless it's designed to be MMOPVP specifically, it'll collapse far faster into financial ruin.
I'm not saying what you bring up ISN'T a problem. It would be for some players. I"ll take the good with the bad I guess. The aim isn't to remove all the bad or remove all the complaints, it's to have something can financially survive while also preserving its take on PvE/PvP open world MMORPG (not MMOPVP).
What are you going on about now? That's a bunch of nonsense...
At the end of the day this game was supposed to be an MMO-ish survival open-world PVP game, I find it funny all the PvE kids are now out talking smack to people who aren't happy about this abrupt last-minute nonsense change to the game.
But that is the funny part, it isn’t a nonsense change. Its a change made by a company that sees a small group of potential customers chasing away a large group of porential customers. Guess who they are going to cater to? You call it nonsense because it doesn’t suit you.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I am not sure if people know this, or remember this, but one of things that made WoW such a massive success was that the Developers were Gamers. Some of the developers of WoW, where very hardcore players of EQ, and they lived and breathed building the game they wanted to play.
And that I believe is what made WoW the juggernaut it became, it was made by gamers for gamers.
I know things went a little wonky when Smeldy said "Gamers don't know what they want" and I think more modern MMO developers have come to take this route directly, where they hire people to make a game that do not in fact play games, because they, like some of the players, have begin to break game design down to a science as opposed to an art, and why little things that would seem painfully obvious to any gamer, seem to delude them.
Such I guess is the nature of the game.
I disagree about the WoW was so massively successful because it had EQ gamers on their team....
WoW benefited from a perfect storm, cable internet just started becoming a normal thing for a lot of people, computer parts to build gaming rigs became accessible and mostly affordable.. OG mmos were getting old and stale then a new game with good graphics from a popular IP popped up and everyone decided to give it a shot.... then came all the new to the internet gaming scene people and massive communities blossomed which helped the game maintain to grow and keep pumping out content.
Many WoW players who played for it's entire life will admit one of the main reasons they stayed so long was the friends they made in game, they didn't want to leave them.
You can disagree, but that would show you were not following the surrounding events around WoW.
Believe it or not, WoW's start was in fact very humble, it took WoW 3 years to finally hit it's growth peak, so there was no "Perfect Storm" going on here.
It was competing against EQ, which was the juggernaut of the era, and EQ just did a total graphics overhaul, which made the game look far more modern than it's age would indicate.
The thing was, simply put, EQ's developers, under Smedly, felt that since they really had the monopoly on what was the MMO market at the time, they could do whatever they wanted, and their communities acted accordingly, hence also the mentality of "Love it or Leave it" that some MMO players still possess.
Truth was, pure and simple, Blizzard sought out some of the best Developers and Players in EQ (and I suppose other games) and asked them to help them make the best game, and they did.
They took all the things that gamers had been asking for in EQ, and put that into WoW, and then the developers would log in and play the game with the people. They got to know the community on a private and personal level as player to player, learned what make their communities tick, and the why's and how's of what would keep things going in the right way.
So, no, if you thought it was hardware or internet access, or something along those lines, you would be wrong, because if it was that simple, all the others games would have also seen an uptick, and that was not the case at all.
It was pure and simple, WoW was made by gamers for gamers. That was why it rocked.
It was a bit of both. WoW essentially created playability in the genre. It wasn't close and still one of the best. The fact that Blizzard had an online presence with loyal fans built in helped a lot. It stole a lot of the current MMORPG players while bringing in legions of it's own online fans and had an influx of new online users with high speed internet. Something likely never to be seen again.
I am not sure if people know this, or remember this, but one of things that made WoW such a massive success was that the Developers were Gamers. Some of the developers of WoW, where very hardcore players of EQ, and they lived and breathed building the game they wanted to play.
And that I believe is what made WoW the juggernaut it became, it was made by gamers for gamers.
I know things went a little wonky when Smeldy said "Gamers don't know what they want" and I think more modern MMO developers have come to take this route directly, where they hire people to make a game that do not in fact play games, because they, like some of the players, have begin to break game design down to a science as opposed to an art, and why little things that would seem painfully obvious to any gamer, seem to delude them.
Such I guess is the nature of the game.
I disagree about the WoW was so massively successful because it had EQ gamers on their team....
WoW benefited from a perfect storm, cable internet just started becoming a normal thing for a lot of people, computer parts to build gaming rigs became accessible and mostly affordable.. OG mmos were getting old and stale then a new game with good graphics from a popular IP popped up and everyone decided to give it a shot.... then came all the new to the internet gaming scene people and massive communities blossomed which helped the game maintain to grow and keep pumping out content.
Many WoW players who played for it's entire life will admit one of the main reasons they stayed so long was the friends they made in game, they didn't want to leave them.
You can disagree, but that would show you were not following the surrounding events around WoW.
Believe it or not, WoW's start was in fact very humble, it took WoW 3 years to finally hit it's growth peak, so there was no "Perfect Storm" going on here.
It was competing against EQ, which was the juggernaut of the era, and EQ just did a total graphics overhaul, which made the game look far more modern than it's age would indicate.
The thing was, simply put, EQ's developers, under Smedly, felt that since they really had the monopoly on what was the MMO market at the time, they could do whatever they wanted, and their communities acted accordingly, hence also the mentality of "Love it or Leave it" that some MMO players still possess.
Truth was, pure and simple, Blizzard sought out some of the best Developers and Players in EQ (and I suppose other games) and asked them to help them make the best game, and they did.
They took all the things that gamers had been asking for in EQ, and put that into WoW, and then the developers would log in and play the game with the people. They got to know the community on a private and personal level as player to player, learned what make their communities tick, and the why's and how's of what would keep things going in the right way.
So, no, if you thought it was hardware or internet access, or something along those lines, you would be wrong, because if it was that simple, all the others games would have also seen an uptick, and that was not the case at all.
It was pure and simple, WoW was made by gamers for gamers. That was why it rocked.
It was a bit of both. WoW essentially created playability in the genre. It wasn't close and still one of the best. The fact that Blizzard had an online presence with loyal fans built in helped a lot. It stole a lot of the current MMORPG players while bringing in legions of it's own online fans and had an influx of new online users with high speed internet. Something likely never to be seen again.
The fact that WoW was an already established Name among gamers did help them. But you could have the best IP in the world and still flop on the game market (Ask Turbine about that one, when they launched Dungeons and Dragons Online, and, it sputtered out the gate and limped along)
What made WoW successful was it was a game made by gamers for gamers, the same reason why EQ was successful, Brad was also an avid player of his own game.
Also that kind of influx has in fact been seen again, Fortnight being a prime example of this.
Both games have their haters, obviously, but that does not change the fact these things happen, and it's not some perfect storm that will never happen again, it's really, they just made a great game.
Sometimes.. that's all it takes.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Vinterkrig said: Also, I jumped on WoW day 1 with my clan from DAOC, every server was full...not sure what you're talking about with 3 years to become a booming game...lol
To really understand what I meant, you would need to know that it wasn't until 2008 that they hit their juggernaut status of 10 million players.
There was no perfect storm of technology and influx, as over that same 3 years, EQ, DAOC, Linage I & II, (and a bunch of other small games) all went down, where EvE saw steady growth.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Vinterkrig said: Also, I jumped on WoW day 1 with my clan from DAOC, every server was full...not sure what you're talking about with 3 years to become a booming game...lol
To really understand what I meant, you would need to know that it wasn't until 2008 that they hit their juggernaut status of 10 million players.
There was no perfect storm of technology and influx, as over that same 3 years, EQ, DAOC, Linage I & II, (and a bunch of other small games) all went down, where EvE saw steady growth.
"fastest-selling PC game of all time, selling nearly 2.4 million copies in its first 24 hours and approximately 3.5 million in its first month"
Dude it hit millions in the first month, no other MMO had populations like that...NONE, I'm sorry you just aren't right about how things played out...I know you wanna give credit to the devs, but it wasn't the devs, and it really wasn't even the game overall... it was just the perfect storm.
thats not accurate , Wow released in 11/04 , it did not break a million sales till , if i remember correctly , we did not break 1 million sales till sometime in 06
Vinterkrig said: Also, I jumped on WoW day 1 with my clan from DAOC, every server was full...not sure what you're talking about with 3 years to become a booming game...lol
To really understand what I meant, you would need to know that it wasn't until 2008 that they hit their juggernaut status of 10 million players.
There was no perfect storm of technology and influx, as over that same 3 years, EQ, DAOC, Linage I & II, (and a bunch of other small games) all went down, where EvE saw steady growth.
"fastest-selling PC game of all time, selling nearly 2.4 million copies in its first 24 hours and approximately 3.5 million in its first month"
Dude it hit millions in the first month, no other MMO had populations like that...NONE, I'm sorry you just aren't right about how things played out...I know you wanna give credit to the devs, but it wasn't the devs, and it really wasn't even the game overall... it was just the perfect storm.
thats not accurate , Wow released in 11/04 , it did not break a million sales till , if i remember correctly , we did not break 1 million sales till sometime in 06
That is because wow is only released in certain region initially. And it gradually added more countries and localized in more language.
There are post on it from google. Can try searching for it:
Well according to mmogchart.com it hit 1 million worldwide subscribers sometime between January and February of '05 which would have been about 2-3 months after release. Blizzard announced It hit 1million subscribers in North America alone in August of 2005.
Vinterkrig said: Also, I jumped on WoW day 1 with my clan from DAOC, every server was full...not sure what you're talking about with 3 years to become a booming game...lol
To really understand what I meant, you would need to know that it wasn't until 2008 that they hit their juggernaut status of 10 million players.
There was no perfect storm of technology and influx, as over that same 3 years, EQ, DAOC, Linage I & II, (and a bunch of other small games) all went down, where EvE saw steady growth.
"fastest-selling PC game of all time, selling nearly 2.4 million copies in its first 24 hours and approximately 3.5 million in its first month"
Dude it hit millions in the first month, no other MMO had populations like that...NONE, I'm sorry you just aren't right about how things played out...I know you wanna give credit to the devs, but it wasn't the devs, and it really wasn't even the game overall... it was just the perfect storm.
thats not accurate , Wow released in 11/04 , it did not break a million sales till , if i remember correctly , we did not break 1 million sales till sometime in 06
There were NEVER problems in MMORPGs when they were totally PVE. It has proven itself, over and over again and again, that you CANNOT implement both! MMORPGs were developed for long term play and character development. People do NOT want to risk their time, loot and/or gear, being ganked by some pimple faced 13 yo. who thinks its fun to kill you over and over again when he is lvl 50 and you are lvl 9. Sad...but that's the way PVP is (ok there are 35yo pimply faced jerks that do it also). That coupled with the fact that it is a small percentage that PVP, makes it all the more perplexing as to why devs want to consider PVP at all.
both sides of the argument are trying prove a extreme, A ) players only played wow because it was fun. B ) wow players only played because it was talked about and you made online friends.
both are true, neither invalided the other. Wii was a best selling console for similar reasons. WoW did lot things right for new players wanting try a MMO vs any before it. i burn out 5 ish year later and randomly try it even now as it made me happy for a while, not just X player was onlineso i stayed subed . i still look forward to the day someone make a better WoW or whatever MMO we did not know we wanted till it hit us.
There were NEVER problems in MMORPGs when they were totally PVE. It has proven itself, over and over again and again, that you CANNOT implement both! MMORPGs were developed for long term play and character development. People do NOT want to risk their time, loot and/or gear, being ganked by some pimple faced 13 yo. who thinks its fun to kill you over and over again when he is lvl 50 and you are lvl 9. Sad...but that's the way PVP is (ok there are 35yo pimply faced jerks that do it also). That coupled with the fact that it is a small percentage that PVP, makes it all the more perplexing as to why devs want to consider PVP at all.
Hate to break it to you but PvP was there together with PvE right from the start. The only one of the originals that didn't have it (although they added it later) was EQ.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
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Vinterkrig said: Also, I jumped on WoW day 1 with my clan from DAOC, every server was full...not sure what you're talking about with 3 years to become a booming game...lol
To really understand what I meant, you would need to know that it wasn't until 2008 that they hit their juggernaut status of 10 million players.
There was no perfect storm of technology and influx, as over that same 3 years, EQ, DAOC, Linage I & II, (and a bunch of other small games) all went down, where EvE saw steady growth.
"fastest-selling PC game of all time, selling nearly 2.4 million copies in its first 24 hours and approximately 3.5 million in its first month"
Dude it hit millions in the first month, no other MMO had populations like that...NONE, I'm sorry you just aren't right about how things played out...I know you wanna give credit to the devs, but it wasn't the devs, and it really wasn't even the game overall... it was just the perfect storm.
thats not accurate , Wow released in 11/04 , it did not break a million sales till , if i remember correctly , we did not break 1 million sales till sometime in 06
Ok, the article I read was incorrect and I was wrong with those numbers. I just went back and found another source, it sold 240k in its first 24 hours, breaking records. Over Thanksgiving weekend that hit over 350k.
For DAOC it took until 2006 to hit 300,000 copies sold
Ashron's was somewhere in the 200k range
"By the time EverQuest launched, Ultima Online had shattered expectations and sold 120,000 copies. But EverQuest was a cutting-edge game that required a computer with a 3D graphics card, a somewhat novel piece of hardware in 1999. The team would be excited if it sold even a quarter as many copies.
Instead, EverQuest sold 10,000 on its first day." - PCGamer
"At its height in 2004, EverQuest had sold over 3 million copies and had released a whopping eight expansions"
Fixed Broadband Subscriptions in the US
2000 - 2.5% of population
2001 - 4.5%
2002 - 6.9%
2003 - 9.5%
2004 - 12.7%
2005 - 17.2%
2006 - 20.1%
As I said, graphics cards and computer upgrades became easier for consumers in the 2003/4-ish years, even easier after the fact. This is why EQ2 was developed because EQ was soon to be left behind by new hardware allowing devs to push boundaries.
WoW came on the scene when the internet (faster internet) was booming ... Myspace was massive and people craved online connections, WoW was right there for them, new and more populated than any other online game ever was and they wanted to join their friends and be apart of it to hang out.
I'm not saying WoW wasn't a solid game with a good design, it was for a lot of people but it wasn't what made it so huge. Now that every game is online, we don't see long-lasting populations or even populations reaching WoW's numbers because the magic is gone, the boom is gone and there is a billion choices.
*edit - WoW didn't invent any wheel or fire here, they took everything good from what was already a thing, attached their IP to it (which was popular)
"Warcraft: Orcs & Humans became a success, and for the first time made the company's finances secure. Within one year of release, its sales surpassed 100,000 units. It ultimately sold 300,000 copies."
By the time WoW came out, we had already been doing go kill 5 things quests for many years, and things of that nature... but all the new people were just experiencing the digital world magic early MMO adopters had already known.
Yes that clears it up , my numbers were NA , i remember getting the call that it went over the million ..
There were NEVER problems in MMORPGs when they were totally PVE. It has proven itself, over and over again and again, that you CANNOT implement both! MMORPGs were developed for long term play and character development. People do NOT want to risk their time, loot and/or gear, being ganked by some pimple faced 13 yo. who thinks its fun to kill you over and over again when he is lvl 50 and you are lvl 9. Sad...but that's the way PVP is (ok there are 35yo pimply faced jerks that do it also). That coupled with the fact that it is a small percentage that PVP, makes it all the more perplexing as to why devs want to consider PVP at all.
Besides the fact that the first MMORPGs where full loot PvP (UO, M59) it isnt that hard to prevent such behavior. Make characters being protected until they reach a certain level. Make tiers of area with different security levels. Give mindless killing of lowbies heavy penalties (loose gear/stats on death, ingame prison time, blues become red when trading with them,...)
There are many ways if you think about it which give depth and immersion...and there is the lazy way to just remove it.
Vinterkrig said: Also, I jumped on WoW day 1 with my clan from DAOC, every server was full...not sure what you're talking about with 3 years to become a booming game...lol
To really understand what I meant, you would need to know that it wasn't until 2008 that they hit their juggernaut status of 10 million players.
There was no perfect storm of technology and influx, as over that same 3 years, EQ, DAOC, Linage I & II, (and a bunch of other small games) all went down, where EvE saw steady growth.
"fastest-selling PC game of all time, selling nearly 2.4 million copies in its first 24 hours and approximately 3.5 million in its first month"
Dude it hit millions in the first month, no other MMO had populations like that...NONE, I'm sorry you just aren't right about how things played out...I know you wanna give credit to the devs, but it wasn't the devs, and it really wasn't even the game overall... it was just the perfect storm.
thats not accurate , Wow released in 11/04 , it did not break a million sales till , if i remember correctly , we did not break 1 million sales till sometime in 06
Ok, the article I read was incorrect and I was wrong with those numbers. I just went back and found another source, it sold 240k in its first 24 hours, breaking records. Over Thanksgiving weekend that hit over 350k.
For DAOC it took until 2006 to hit 300,000 copies sold
Ashron's was somewhere in the 200k range
"By the time EverQuest launched, Ultima Online had shattered expectations and sold 120,000 copies. But EverQuest was a cutting-edge game that required a computer with a 3D graphics card, a somewhat novel piece of hardware in 1999. The team would be excited if it sold even a quarter as many copies.
Instead, EverQuest sold 10,000 on its first day." - PCGamer
"At its height in 2004, EverQuest had sold over 3 million copies and had released a whopping eight expansions"
Fixed Broadband Subscriptions in the US
2000 - 2.5% of population
2001 - 4.5%
2002 - 6.9%
2003 - 9.5%
2004 - 12.7%
2005 - 17.2%
2006 - 20.1%
As I said, graphics cards and computer upgrades became easier for consumers in the 2003/4-ish years, even easier after the fact. This is why EQ2 was developed because EQ was soon to be left behind by new hardware allowing devs to push boundaries.
WoW came on the scene when the internet (faster internet) was booming ... Myspace was massive and people craved online connections, WoW was right there for them, new and more populated than any other online game ever was and they wanted to join their friends and be apart of it to hang out.
I'm not saying WoW wasn't a solid game with a good design, it was for a lot of people but it wasn't what made it so huge. Now that every game is online, we don't see long-lasting populations or even populations reaching WoW's numbers because the magic is gone, the boom is gone and there is a billion choices.
*edit - WoW didn't invent any wheel or fire here, they took everything good from what was already a thing, attached their IP to it (which was popular)
"Warcraft: Orcs & Humans became a success, and for the first time made the company's finances secure. Within one year of release, its sales surpassed 100,000 units. It ultimately sold 300,000 copies."
By the time WoW came out, we had already been doing go kill 5 things quests for many years, and things of that nature... but all the new people were just experiencing the digital world magic early MMO adopters had already known.
One of the largest things you are not taking into account, is that WOW was not the only MMO released at that time.
For example, iconic games like City of Heros and GW1 were also released right around that same time as WoW. (along with games like the Matrix Online, Starwars Galaxies, etc)
CoH, didn't launch to stardom, neither did GW1, as such, WoW's success was built off a lot more than a Graphic Card, or Internet Access. WoW grew into a juggernaut that it became while the other games of the same era just kind of stumbled along, with a few of them dying.
In the end, why it kept an uptick in population was a very simple reason, it was a game designed by gamers, for gamers.
The very people who played these games, built that games. That is why all those loved features from other games were all there, and done right and even improved upon, not simply a check-box feature list that we see in many other game.
Why did this work.. because again.. it was a game built by gamers.. for gamers.
if it was something a silly as a graphic card or internet access all the other games of that era should have boomed too.. and notice.. they didn't.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I refute the claim wow wasn't popular quickly. All historical graphs clearly show it was big coming out of the gate. The 'perfect storm idea' fits better than 'by gamers for gamers'. I was there at launch and could give anecdotal opinions but the numbers speak for themselves.
Ungood said: WoW grew into a juggernaut that it became while the other games of the same era just kind of stumbled along, with a few of them dying.
....so all the other games WOW left behind in it's success - COH,SWG,MO, GW1 and countless others were not 'built by gamers for gamers'?
Your 'argument' is wrong, naive and silly.
For every successfull business venture, there is 10 unsuccessfull ones.
There is no magic, just happenstance of several factors that make a successfull business, more so for flukes like WOW.
Ok.. so lets go with that.
So, we need to ask the hard question, What makes one succeed and others fail?
I mean, think about it, they were all selling the same exact product, an MMO, most were set in the traditional fantasy setting, they were all launching at the same time.
And, lets get something clear, success like WoW, was not some random happenstance, that's just silly.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
In any company you have to target and understand your customer base.....By making it FFA PVP you are targetting a very small niche of potential players.
And do you think a company like Amazon is not behind these changes? They want this game to sell and not be known as a free for all gank box. They want to make Wow money on this.
So, we need to ask the hard question, What makes one succeed and others fail?
...already answered, you just don't like the answer.
LOL, "Random happenstance" is never the answer to success like WoW's.
The real thing here, as much as you may not like it, but the truth remains, it was a game made by gamers, for gamers, that is why gamers loved it, and dragged all their friends into it, who also loved it, and dragged all their friends into it, that is why it grew.
Not graphic cards, not internet access, not "I dunno? Luck Maybe?"
If you thought there was something else that kept it going.. you would be wrong.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I mean come on, Do these developers live under a rock?
This once again adds strength to my theory that honesty, many MMO developers do in fact know how to make MMOs and Program them well( wont take that away from them) ,
but most Lead MMO developers DO NOT Know or understand why certain things/features/design concepts either Succeed or Fail.
More avid gamers need to be invovled in game development. Come on you lazy fucks...get out there. (I'm too old and stupid to do this myself.)
Ungood said: WoW grew into a juggernaut that it became while the other games of the same era just kind of stumbled along, with a few of them dying.
....so all the other games WOW left behind in it's success - COH,SWG,MO, GW1 and countless others were not 'built by gamers for gamers'?
Your 'argument' is wrong, naive and silly.
For every successfull business venture, there is 10 unsuccessfull ones.
There is no magic, just happenstance of several factors that make a successfull business, more so for flukes like WOW.
You sure you didn't say this?
There is no magic, just happenstance of several factors that make a successfull business, more so for flukes like WOW.
That really looks like you said just Happenstance.
Are you really sure you didn't say this? I just want to be clear now that you didn't write off WoW's success as just random happenstance.
Just you know, for my own records.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Believe it or not, WoW's start was in fact very humble, it took WoW 3 years to finally hit it's growth peak, so there was no "Perfect Storm" going on here.
It was competing against EQ, which was the juggernaut of the era, and EQ just did a total graphics overhaul, which made the game look far more modern than it's age would indicate.
The thing was, simply put, EQ's developers, under Smedly, felt that since they really had the monopoly on what was the MMO market at the time, they could do whatever they wanted, and their communities acted accordingly, hence also the mentality of "Love it or Leave it" that some MMO players still possess.
Truth was, pure and simple, Blizzard sought out some of the best Developers and Players in EQ (and I suppose other games) and asked them to help them make the best game, and they did.
They took all the things that gamers had been asking for in EQ, and put that into WoW, and then the developers would log in and play the game with the people. They got to know the community on a private and personal level as player to player, learned what make their communities tick, and the why's and how's of what would keep things going in the right way.
So, no, if you thought it was hardware or internet access, or something along those lines, you would be wrong, because if it was that simple, all the others games would have also seen an uptick, and that was not the case at all.
It was pure and simple, WoW was made by gamers for gamers. That was why it rocked.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
What made WoW successful was it was a game made by gamers for gamers, the same reason why EQ was successful, Brad was also an avid player of his own game.
Also that kind of influx has in fact been seen again, Fortnight being a prime example of this.
Both games have their haters, obviously, but that does not change the fact these things happen, and it's not some perfect storm that will never happen again, it's really, they just made a great game.
Sometimes.. that's all it takes.
There was no perfect storm of technology and influx, as over that same 3 years, EQ, DAOC, Linage I & II, (and a bunch of other small games) all went down, where EvE saw steady growth.
thats not accurate , Wow released in 11/04 , it did not break a million sales till , if i remember correctly , we did not break 1 million sales till sometime in 06
There are post on it from google. Can try searching for it:
Well according to mmogchart.com it hit 1 million worldwide subscribers sometime between January and February of '05 which would have been about 2-3 months after release. Blizzard announced It hit 1million subscribers in North America alone in August of 2005.
Article from 2005:
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/world-of-warcraft-subscribers-reach-4-million/1100-6132187/
both are true, neither invalided the other. Wii was a best selling console for similar reasons. WoW did lot things right for new players wanting try a MMO vs any before it. i burn out 5 ish year later and randomly try it even now as it made me happy for a while, not just X player was onlineso i stayed subed . i still look forward to the day someone make a better WoW or whatever MMO we did not know we wanted till it hit us.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Make characters being protected until they reach a certain level. Make tiers of area with different security levels. Give mindless killing of lowbies heavy penalties (loose gear/stats on death, ingame prison time, blues become red when trading with them,...)
There are many ways if you think about it which give depth and immersion...and there is the lazy way to just remove it.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
For example, iconic games like City of Heros and GW1 were also released right around that same time as WoW. (along with games like the Matrix Online, Starwars Galaxies, etc)
CoH, didn't launch to stardom, neither did GW1, as such, WoW's success was built off a lot more than a Graphic Card, or Internet Access. WoW grew into a juggernaut that it became while the other games of the same era just kind of stumbled along, with a few of them dying.
In the end, why it kept an uptick in population was a very simple reason, it was a game designed by gamers, for gamers.
The very people who played these games, built that games. That is why all those loved features from other games were all there, and done right and even improved upon, not simply a check-box feature list that we see in many other game.
Why did this work.. because again.. it was a game built by gamers.. for gamers.
if it was something a silly as a graphic card or internet access all the other games of that era should have boomed too.. and notice.. they didn't.
Your 'argument' is wrong, naive and silly.
For every successfull business venture, there is 10 unsuccessfull ones.
There is no magic, just happenstance of several factors that make a successfull business, more so for flukes like WOW.
So, we need to ask the hard question, What makes one succeed and others fail?
I mean, think about it, they were all selling the same exact product, an MMO, most were set in the traditional fantasy setting, they were all launching at the same time.
And, lets get something clear, success like WoW, was not some random happenstance, that's just silly.
The real thing here, as much as you may not like it, but the truth remains, it was a game made by gamers, for gamers, that is why gamers loved it, and dragged all their friends into it, who also loved it, and dragged all their friends into it, that is why it grew.
Not graphic cards, not internet access, not "I dunno? Luck Maybe?"
If you thought there was something else that kept it going.. you would be wrong.
Twisting what others said won't make you right either, you are still wrong.
That really looks like you said just Happenstance.
Are you really sure you didn't say this? I just want to be clear now that you didn't write off WoW's success as just random happenstance.
Just you know, for my own records.