Quantcast

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

OPINION: New World & The Age-Old Clash Between PvE & PvP - MMORPG.com

12346

Comments

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,696
    I played 7 years in UO Felucca, but until they added the pve mirror world the game was dying.  Straight pvp MMO's don't exist for a reason, such games will not support the development staff.

    You can argue all you want, but that won't change the facts.
    UngoodArglebargleRhoklawelveoneSpiiderSlyLoK
  • PyukPyuk Member UncommonPosts: 762
    Save your money and wait a year after release. This thing will be garbage on launch, but maybe they can pull out something good over time like what was done for ESO.

    BTW, has Amazon games shipped ANY games, yet?

    I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  • KeushpuppyKeushpuppy Member UncommonPosts: 160
    I still think the way Asherons Call did pvp was best.....
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,777
    Pyuk said:
    Save your money and wait a year after release. This thing will be garbage on launch, but maybe they can pull out something good over time like what was done for ESO.

    BTW, has Amazon games shipped ANY games, yet?
    Though what ESO had to fix was their developer's intent to make ESO a skinned version of DAoC.  It was a tragic misreading of their established fanbase.  And they heard about this all through beta.
    Ozmodan

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,117
    Hatefull said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amazon has already stated that they found an immense amount of people ganking lowbies over and over. Of course the PvP crowd will ignore this fact and keep claiming PvP games fail because of PvE drama. Quite the opposite really as PvE crowds have little to no affect on how PvP works. If a game allows PvP, it allows PvP. The fact it doesn't allow you to gank lowbies all day just says something about the PvP crowd.

    DAoC has been discussed multiple times of how PvE and PvP can work well together in a RPG progression setting. At this point, the only ones still arguing are the sociopaths.
    Coming from a PvP player, I tend to agree with you. PvP players are their own worst enemy.

    The issue is, most cannot see beyond their next kill. From my experience, they never consider the longevity of the game they are playing. Players that continually make life miserable for others seem to think that the "others" will continue to submit to this abuse when in reality most will not. So, as others have pointed out, the game slowly withers and dies, then the idiot moves on to the next game, all the while bitching at the devs for "killing" the game. Rinse and repeat.

    I do enjoy PvP for the sake of competition I do not enjoy being repeatedly ganked because I started a few days behind a sociopath nor do I find joy in doing that to others. Friendly competition is one thing, just being a bell tip because you can, is another.

    I prefer the flag system, it lets people that want to PvP do so, and doesn't force the death of the game. 

    DAoC is a good example imo. 
    You’re a pvpr too now huh? 

    This is getting rich lmao
    Ungoodelveone
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,023
    edited January 25
    bcbully said: 
    You’re a pvpr too now huh? 

    This is getting rich lmao
    Gonna burst your bubble here, but PvP is HUGE, it's Fucking Massive in the gaming world, it dwarfs the population of players that play MMO's across the world, that is why games like Fortnight is a billion dollar business, and people have become millionaires on playing those kinds of games.

    So, Just a heads up, when Companies make a PvP MMO, they are not looking to make bank off that microscopic subset of players that adore the totally flawed and unbalanced systems of yesteryears MMO PvP, they are looking to pull from that huge well of PvP players. 

    Reality Check: Real PvP players don't want an unbalanced rubbish of a game, neither do PvE players, and neither do the people that watch Streams.
    bcbullyIselinelveoneOzmodanSlyLoK
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,023
    and in the spirit of this discussion, given what I said above, it seems that the Amazon Team working on New World, also, somehow recently got that Reality Check, and are doing what they can to save their Train Wreck before it goes live, so that it can appeal to the PvP, PvE, and Streamers.
    elveone
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,513
    It won't need to appeal to streamers,they will be paying streamer houses to play their game.
    I wouldn't even doubt we end up seeing Dr,Disrespect and his sidekick Summit1G,they seem to move from game to game,whoever pays them more.
    Personally i can't stand about 99% of the streamers,most of the females are tramps dancing or showing cleavage for money and the guys all think they are RPO gamer's ..lol,look at me i am a real pro.
    So i will tend to watch the more relaxed self driven streamers than the simple business deal ones.Angry Joe might make some good video content on games but his stream is a horrible sellout to business deals.
    So yeah we can expect to see a LOT of streamers and their houses contacted to stream this,likely even a day before the rest of us get it.Actually unless i see something good,i won't be playing it.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,117
    Look dude this just the forums. No need for role play here lol. “Imma play the spy and infiltrate the ranks of pvprs then destroy them! Muhahaha” A damn sheep in wolfs clothing.
    Putrefeeelveone
  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 576
    edited January 25
    There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.

    Why can't you guys go have fun in literally any of the hundreds of MMO's out there that cater specifically to you? Why do you have to cry about PvP in any new MMO that comes out with a focus on PvP? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the game isn't meant for you to enjoy? Just like pure PvE games aren't meant for PvP focused players to enjoy?

    Probably not, because you are selfish and entitled. This is the frustration we have with Amazon's decision to neuter the PvP in New World. The last AAA MMO that released with any sort of focus on PvP was Guild Wars 2, back in 2012. When was the last MMO released with a focus on PvE? Yesterday? Last week? Last month? Last year? All of the above?

    This is coming from a person who started playing MMO's back in 1999 with Ultima Online. I have gone through just about everything that has released since then. Nothing except for Shadowbane, Darkfall, AC and SWG have come anywhere close to the openness of Ultima Online back in the early days/T2A era - New World looked like it was stepping in that direction. Not now, it would seem.

    ***I will add, an easy fix would be to enable guild war declarations and/or a faction system that is opt-in, but gives rewards for taking part, even if they are only cosmetic. If guilds can war dec each other at least they can fight over resources/land/etc in the open world like that rather than being relegated to some instanced zone that resets every 15 minutes ad infinitum. Both guilds declare on each other, or one guild declares and pays a hefty tax to go to war against a non-willing guild. This is crucial for the resource aspect of the game to function correctly.
    bcbullyPutrefeeelveoneSlyLoK
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    Why do PvEers feel so entitled to invite themselves where they are not wanted?

    Look, if you don't like PvP, don't buy the game. There's plenty of PvE games for you out there that you ruined.

    Also, the idea of "forced" PvP is just lulz. Nobody invited you in the first place and certainly didn't "force" you to buy a PvP game.
    bcbullyPutrefeeelveone
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,175
    Ungood said:
    bcbully said: 
    You’re a pvpr too now huh? 

    This is getting rich lmao
    Gonna burst your bubble here, but PvP is HUGE, it's Fucking Massive in the gaming world, it dwarfs the population of players that play MMO's across the world, that is why games like Fortnight is a billion dollar business, and people have become millionaires on playing those kinds of games.

    So, Just a heads up, when Companies make a PvP MMO, they are not looking to make bank off that microscopic subset of players that adore the totally flawed and unbalanced systems of yesteryears MMO PvP, they are looking to pull from that huge well of PvP players. 

    Reality Check: Real PvP players don't want an unbalanced rubbish of a game, neither do PvE players, and neither do the people that watch Streams.
    Here's another reality check: You don't try to sell fishing rods to bird watchers so you don't make MMORPGs for BR casuals.
    ScorchienbcbullyelveoneultimateduckSlyLoK
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,231
    evilized said:
    There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
    Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,023
    Wizardry said:
    It won't need to appeal to streamers,they will be paying streamer houses to play their game.
    I wouldn't even doubt we end up seeing Dr,Disrespect and his sidekick Summit1G,they seem to move from game to game,whoever pays them more.
    Personally i can't stand about 99% of the streamers,most of the females are tramps dancing or showing cleavage for money and the guys all think they are RPO gamer's ..lol,look at me i am a real pro.
    So i will tend to watch the more relaxed self driven streamers than the simple business deal ones.Angry Joe might make some good video content on games but his stream is a horrible sellout to business deals.
    So yeah we can expect to see a LOT of streamers and their houses contacted to stream this,likely even a day before the rest of us get it.Actually unless i see something good,i won't be playing it.
    You're right, the streamers will play whatever they are paid to play, you're right, I should have clarified that I was more referring to the people that watch the streams, my bad.
    elveone
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,023
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    bcbully said: 
    You’re a pvpr too now huh? 

    This is getting rich lmao
    Gonna burst your bubble here, but PvP is HUGE, it's Fucking Massive in the gaming world, it dwarfs the population of players that play MMO's across the world, that is why games like Fortnight is a billion dollar business, and people have become millionaires on playing those kinds of games.

    So, Just a heads up, when Companies make a PvP MMO, they are not looking to make bank off that microscopic subset of players that adore the totally flawed and unbalanced systems of yesteryears MMO PvP, they are looking to pull from that huge well of PvP players. 

    Reality Check: Real PvP players don't want an unbalanced rubbish of a game, neither do PvE players, and neither do the people that watch Streams.
    Here's another reality check: You don't try to sell fishing rods to bird watchers so you don't make MMORPGs for BR casuals.
    Well Apparent, Amazon thought they were selling Fishing Rods (A very popular and profitable sporting pastime that has many ways to enjoy it, from fly fishing to oceanic marlin hunting - IE: PvP &PvE players), and realized they were gonna get Bird Watchers (A much smaller and less profitable demographic - IE: TvT players), and are trying to fix that fuck up before they go bankrupt trying to sell something that does not sell. 

    But, to be fair,  that is not the fault any of the player groups.

    It's entirely the fault of the Amazon dev's not having a clue about what they are doing and had not been paying attention to any of the lessons that other game companies had to learn the hard way, and, it was going to be a train wreck anyway, because given their sudden changes, it's painfully obvious they had no idea who and what demographic they were actually building for at the start.

    Just my observations at this point.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 576
    Bloodaxes said:
    evilized said:
    There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
    Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.

    Catering to all playstyles is not pvp-centric, is it? You just proved my point with your statement, so thank you.
    elveone
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,023
    evilized said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    evilized said:
    There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
    Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.

    Catering to all playstyles is not pvp-centric, is it? You just proved my point with your statement, so thank you.
    So, the problem is not a lack of MMO's that provide PvP, (of which there are plenty), the problem is that the people that want a PvP MMO are unwilling to share.

    Yah.. that sounds like a problem.
    bcbullyOzmodan
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,231
    evilized said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    evilized said:
    There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
    Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.

    Catering to all playstyles is not pvp-centric, is it? You just proved my point with your statement, so thank you.
    Neither are they pve-centric as you claim, so try again. 
    Ungood

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,526
    edited January 25
    Actually what PvP needs is game AI good enough to be able to act like weak actual players.  If half the players on a server in a PvP game were actually AI players and they tended to lose battles but put up a decent fight, then Pvpers would win (on average) that 70%+ that people need to be happy as opposed to the 50% that you get on a pure pvp server where pveers are removed from the equation. 

    PvP servers suffer because 30% of the players(higher when pveers are included) win 30% or fewer of their engagements and tend to leave, making a new 30% of players who have no fun and leave...

    Adding more bad players where nobody knows the difference solves the problem.

    I know there have been miner bots made for games and monster killing bots.  You could program them to try to flee from pvp encounters.  Pause for a few seconds and fight badly or even competently with poor to bad equipment. 
  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member RarePosts: 1,020
    Imagine if devs and players put even 1/100th of the thought into rpg systems and mechanics as they do about pvp and pve.  Then the games may be fun to play either way.  
    bcbullyPutrefee
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 748
    edited January 25
    What's funny is there are literally hundreds of thousands of old PvP loving MMO players out there that could have easily given them the right formula for how to create a good MMO with good PvP. Even if they just asked old DAoC players and got info from that narrow opinion base, the end result would have been much better than what we re seeing here.

    Even better, most probably would have given their creative advice for the cost of the damn game, or even a free month.
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,922
    Ungood said:
    Putrefee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...

    The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
    What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?

    Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...

    Is that acceptable? 
    EQ did things like that, where they mixed high and low level mobs in a zone, the example I remember vividly of this was Foon and Choon right in wolf area. Most of the time, especially with new players, it was not well received.

    I notice a lot of MMO's going forward did not adopt that kind of diversity, I wager because, overall, players didn't like it.
    Kithicor Forest was always my favorite, I remember having to go through that place at night sometimes to get from my village to the main town and it was really scary with roaming high level undead. Looking back, I probably hated it at the time (when I got killed), but it was a neat mechanic that I do miss sometimes.
    UngoodPutrefee

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,023
    Palebane said:
    Ungood said:
    Putrefee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...

    The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
    What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?

    Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...

    Is that acceptable? 
    EQ did things like that, where they mixed high and low level mobs in a zone, the example I remember vividly of this was Foon and Choon right in wolf area. Most of the time, especially with new players, it was not well received.

    I notice a lot of MMO's going forward did not adopt that kind of diversity, I wager because, overall, players didn't like it.
    Kithicor Forest was always my favorite, I remember having to go through that place at night sometimes to get from my village to the main town and it was really scary with roaming high level undead. Looking back, I probably hated it at the time (when I got killed), but it was a neat mechanic that I do miss sometimes.
    I admit, it was a cool mechanic with the night and day mobs. EQ really did a lot of things that seemed to be ahead of the curve, I wager a lot of which was just really a bright eyed team seeing what they could pull off that seemed wild and fun from a players perspective, after all, Brad was an avid player of his own game, so there is that. A lot of it was pretty wild. Some of it was downright mean, like, Kithicor was right on the exit of Rivervale (Halfling Noob Town), and there was zero warning about what went down in that zone at night.

    And you're right, there was a real fear factor, because if you died out there, there was a good chance you were not going to get your body back in time.

    I can't say I miss that.
    Palebane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,696
    The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right.  That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers.  Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.  

    One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage.  That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.

    It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs.  So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best. 
    Putrefee
  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    Ozmodan said:
    The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right.  That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers.  Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.  

    One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage.  That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.

    It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs.  So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best. 
    There are non CP campaigns in ESO. 

    PvP sucks in ESO because PvP in an MMORPG sucks period. It is a lost cause that should remain lost. It should not be part of the core game.

    With an the changes to PvP in New World it remains to be seen. Optional PvP is always the better option if PvP must exist.
    Palebane
Sign In or Register to comment.