The Recent Q/A PvP Interview for New World MMO seem to confirm my theory.

MMOExposed · January 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiYd3lNFEM
For those that didnt see it.

Whats interesting is the fact that New World's MMO developers didnt know or at least expect ganking and low level griefing in a game designed around Open World PvP Full Loot From Start sort of gameplay.

I mean come on, Do these developers live under a rock?

This once again adds strength to my theory that honesty, many MMO developers do in fact know how to make MMOs and Program them well( wont take that away from them) ,

but most Lead MMO developers DO NOT
Know or understand why certain things/features/design concepts either Succeed or Fail.

This same theory also applies to well successful MMOs like Blizzard's World of Warcraft.

The Developers make design decisions, and sometimes they catch on well, and sometimes those ideas flop.

The problem is, these lead designers dont understand "THE WHY" certain things are successful and why certain things are Not Successful.

This why you will see a string of new release "Sandbox" MMO FFA Full Loot MMOs released over the last decade or so with one after another flopping while pretty much building around the same skeleton.

Same thing with the string of MMOs emulating the WoW/EQ style and also flopping one after another using the same skeleton.

You would think these Developers are very smart and would put 1 and 1 together to figure out 2. No. Many of these MMO Developers Dont understand the WHY things work out the way that they do.

And I would go as far as to say the Developers in many cases dont want to hear from the Consumers the explanation of the "WHY". The MMO developers always "KNOW BEST" in their mindset. Just look at the past controversy at Arena Net's Guild Wars 2 when one of the writers got into a heated conflict with a Content Creators when the Content Creator gave some respectful feedback and criticism.

Thats when the development staff come out with the aged old argument "Iam a Developer and you are not. You dont know anything about making a MMO"

Iam sure Mythic's developers were like this before Warhammer came out as well. Same for Wildstar's developers, Darkfall's developers, the list goes on. We see this time and time again.

AAAMEOW · January 2020

It's just PR talk. The studio have to act stupid because of angry mobs mad at them for removing unrestricted pvp/ganking.

There really is no right or wrong answer. The population is split weather or not to restrict pvp.

Amathe · January 2020

MMOExposed said:

I mean come on, Do these developers live under a rock?

No. Because in an open world PvP game, someone would have taken that rock and beaten them with it.

Hawkaya399 · January 2020

Some people genuinely like unrestricted open world PvP in an MMORPG, but not very many. I'm one of them. Not all devs or lead devs have the same opinions. Being that I've played in FFA PvP MMORPGs over the course of 20 years (since 1999), I can it isn't popular. Outspoken complaints are run of the mill. Even the people who like it complain, so separating the two is tricky. Anybody creating a new game or MMORPG has to keep these things in consideration. AS a dev, you have to like FFA PvP in open world MMORPG to carry this risk because it's not a small burden.

My list of recommendations is going to cryptic and even ambiguous. First would be to ensure there're safe zones like in Eve Online, especially in the early levels. In fact, I'd look at Eve Online closely. I'm' not against safe zones until end game. During end game all zones should be PvP-enabled. There can be some PvP zones in the early to mid levels--like for a few unique spells/rings/etc (they shouldn't be powerful upgrades, and they should be few--and maybe there can be crafting alternatives although more expensive). Crafters should be able to do most of their profession in safe zones, relying on bartering or the market, except at very late game. There can also be a point system (for purchasing buffs) and leaderboard to encourage PvP. Full loot or partial loot should be avoided. Everything needs to be created so it discourages players from attacking much lower skilled or lower leveled players. It could go so far as to disallow players from attacking anybody outside their skill level. It should try to encourage, but not enforce fair play. It should be hands off, requiring little to no GM intervention, and directly in the code. It should NOT go out out of its way to protect players from open world pvp interaction, like when players attack someone else who's low hp. Open world PvP will ALWAYS involve some form of manipulative or deceptive or exploitive tactics--that's its nature and it'd be closed-world otherwise. It should probably also restrict the size of guilds or allliances so that no group of players becomes too powerful. It's a very common problem especially in sandbox MMORPGs for powerful guilds to abuse the weaker ones. Strictly speaking, it's the same sort of problem with levels/skills. When power becomes concentrated in a Pvp open world, a dev should consider restrict it in the code to ensure there'll be more fairness overall--unless the dev chooses to do seasonal wipes, but I personally don't like wipes. Fairness should always be top concern, but not extremes.

And rememember I'm writing this in the context of a traditional MMORPG with strong PvE world. It's not merely a PvP MMO. It's still an RPG. It has to be understood PvE will be a big part of the gameplay. This isn't Fortnite. This isn't Quake or Doom or Unreal Tournament or PUBG or any of the many PvP arena/battlefield/deathmatch. In fact MOST of the gameplay is going to be PvE. It requires very special development and budgeting has to be right on target since the risks are so high.

I do favor the idea of realm-based worlds, or faction-based conflicts. So safezones might be the area where you start the game and where the factions are allied. This is like DAOC. Just fighting for yoruself or your clan might not have the same impact as knowing you fight for your realm or faction alliance. It adds to the roleplaying and to the feel of the world I think. This is a good thing for RPG.

Shelvinarr · January 2020

To be honest, Warhammer Online did PvP/RvR exceptionally well on the "PvE" servers. Four tiers of paired leveling zones with an RvR/PvP lake that held a mix of PvE quests and PvP/RvR quests, inside each lake you were flagged for PvP/RvR. However, there was enough to do that you didn't HAVE to participate in PvP/RvR but it became increasingly harder to avoid as each tier made the RvR lake bigger, then they released the desert place that I can't remember the name and the entire zone afaik was RvR/PvP flagged upon arrival. However, I should also caveat that Warhammer was marketed as a PvP/RvR game first, and PvE/RvE game second.

Also, when looking at Warhammer's failure, there's too many people to point the blame towards, but a good majority of it should be directed at EA for pushing for the game to launch prior to it being finished with less bugs. But, Warhammer did make some great innovations to the WoW clone formula that I have only seen one such feature in a current/alive MMO to this day.

Public quests, which exist in some form or fashion in FFXIV, an event happens that requires players to do X with a timer, the more you do the quest objective within the time frame/area of the event, the higher your contribution the higher your reward.

Aside from Public Quests, Warhammer also had the Tome of Knowledge, which was a fantastic creation that allowed players to read up on lore for each area, for key characters in the Warhammer world, and to keep track of their creature kills, as well as hidden bits that unlocked new titles, cloaks, and other trinkets as well as providing a small bit of XP for each thing you unlocked.

Sad that Warhammer died, even sadder that the only way to play now is on a game that only has the skin of Warhammer but none of the things that made it a fun game.

Sovrath · January 2020

"but most Lead MMO developers DO NOT
Know or understand why certain things/features/design concepts either Succeed or Fail. "

years ago I was talking with Someone (executive at a game company) at PAX and the topic moved on to Warhammer Online (or whatever the mmorpg was called).

We were talking about pvp and pve in mmorpg's and I mentioned that Warhammer had mishandled some of the pve elements. One example was that if I was to attack one of two npc's (both standing right next to each other and guarding an area) that one would run to attack me but the other would just stand there.

His response was "well, it's understandable because they are pvp developers."

My response was "Shouldn't that just be common sense?"

I strongly suspect developers are very much like other creatives with considerable training and they reside in an ivory tower without a lot of knowledge of what goes on in the outside world.

I think they are so excited about their projects that they miss a lot.

k61977 · January 2020

Hawkaya399 said:

During end game all zones should be PvP-enabled.

I agree with a lot of what you said but this is one of my biggest pet peeves in any game. If you are not going to make it full PVP from the start don't try an do the old well now that you are at end game you have to do PVP. Those are the worst type of games. They try to suck people that really don't want PVP in for the first however long to then basically say sorry you wasted your time go find something else to play because now you don't have a choice. Either make it PVP from the start or don't do it at all. They either have to realize that full loot free for all PVP is a very small niche an be OK with having a faithful smaller player number game or don't do it at all.

Mendel · January 2020

Fundamentally, I think developers don't really understand their customers. They tend to delude themselves about how many people will want their game. They tend to bias their outlook by building a game they want to play. The want to put elements that appeal to all sorts of play styles into their games, without always recognizing exactly how few people want that combination or if those various elements really mix well. Developers fail to understand their audience by not understanding their customers' psychology.

A good programmer understands graphics code and network operations. Accountants understand the money. Marketing and advertising people understand their respective disciplines. Where developers fail is that no one understands what their customer wants.

An MMORPG is an entertainment tool-box. Too few developers seem to want to know how the gamer will use the tools provided.

So, they make games based on other successful games and games they want to play. At some level, almost every game is someone's passion project. Being creative is difficult. Being unbiased is equally so.

Hawkaya399 · January 2020

k61977 said:

Hawkaya399 said:

During end game all zones should be PvP-enabled.
I agree with a lot of what you said but this is one of my biggest pet peeves in any game. If you are not going to make it full PVP from the start don't try an do the old well now that you are at end game you have to do PVP. Those are the worst type of games. They try to suck people that really don't want PVP in for the first however long to then basically say sorry you wasted your time go find something else to play because now you don't have a choice. Either make it PVP from the start or don't do it at all. They either have to realize that full loot free for all PVP is a very small niche an be OK with having a faithful smaller player number game or don't do it at all.

What you miss is a lot of people fall inbetween. Some people jump around too--they don't stay with one playstyle always. Sometimes I come home and I'm tired and just wnat to grind some quests in a dungeon quietly. Having a safezone alternative gives players options. Allowing players to get something a different way, evne if that way is slower, is good. Remember I said there can be PvP zones inbetween, not just at end game. I left a lot of ambiguity, intentionally. You don't need to think in black and white. I've seen ltos of differnet players in my years. Undeniably, what I wrote was mostly PvE, but that's what I've always preferred. However, I've always liked PvE paired with PvP open world. I think the nature of PvE-progression requires more safezones and some protective mechanisms built-in. Evenso, the open world PvP can exist alongside it.

But I do believe there's room for some full loot exclusively open world PvP MMORPG. I'm not pretending what I offered is the only possibiilty. There're many possibilities. We have many choices, and should have many choices.

And remember the reality is most players will never make it to end game. This means having lots of safezones until end game will make this MMORPG more friendly to the mainstream. And there can be optional PvP open world zones to get unique spells/items--but each should have a crafting alternative. What do you do? Purchase the expensive crafting item, craft it yourself, or brave the PvP open world zone for a few hours to get what it's you're trying to get? Notice how you're making choices you'd not otherwise make if it were purely PvE? The PvP matters.

So who's going to complain when end game is mostly pvp-enabled? Not hte mainstream, since most of them will never make it to end game. The players who like open world PvP will go to the optional zones until end game and be more persistent. The MMORPG is still mostly PvE. All the PvP players are lightweights. They're hybrids. Like any MMORPG, it'll rely on strong content deveopment. PvP second in priority.

k61977 · January 2020

Hawkaya399 said:

k61977 said:

Hawkaya399 said:

During end game all zones should be PvP-enabled.
I agree with a lot of what you said but this is one of my biggest pet peeves in any game. If you are not going to make it full PVP from the start don't try an do the old well now that you are at end game you have to do PVP. Those are the worst type of games. They try to suck people that really don't want PVP in for the first however long to then basically say sorry you wasted your time go find something else to play because now you don't have a choice. Either make it PVP from the start or don't do it at all. They either have to realize that full loot free for all PVP is a very small niche an be OK with having a faithful smaller player number game or don't do it at all.

What you miss is a lot of people fall inbetween. Some people jump around too--they don't stay with one playstyle always. Sometimes I come home and I'm tired and just wnat to grind some quests in a dungeon quietly. Having a safezone alternative gives players options. Allowing players to get something a different way, evne if that way is slower, is good. Remember I said there can be PvP zones inbetween, not just at end game. I left a lot of ambiguity, intentionally. You don't need to think in black and white. I've seen ltos of differnet players in my years. Undeniably, what I wrote was mostly PvE, but that's what I've always preferred. However, I've always liked PvE paired with PvP open world. I think the nature of PvE-progression requires more safezones and some protective mechanisms built-in. Evenso, the open world PvP can exist alongside it.

But I do believe there's room for some full loot exclusively open world PvP MMORPG. I'm not pretending what I offered is the only possibiilty. There're many possibilities. We have many choices, and should have many choices.

And remember the reality is most players will never make it to end game. This means having lots of safezones until end game will make this MMORPG more friendly to the mainstream. And there can be optional PvP open world zones to get unique spells/items--but each should have a crafting alternative. What do you do? Purchase the expensive crafting item, craft it yourself, or brave the PvP open world zone for a few hours to get what it's you're trying to get? Notice how you're making choices you'd not otherwise make if it were purely PvE? The PvP matters.

So who's going to complain when end game is mostly pvp-enabled? Not hte mainstream, since most of them will never make it to end game. The players who like open world PvP will go to the optional zones until end game and be more persistent. The MMORPG is still mostly PvE. All the PvP players are lightweights. They're hybrids. Like any MMORPG, it'll rely on strong content deveopment. PvP second in priority.

Think you missed my point. I play both pve an pvp myself. Most people don't just play one. Forcing something on players at the end that you didn't do the entire time is a bad design. It is usually a lazy design because the developers are hoping that the pvp will take place of them having to design more stuff to keep players engaged.

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

AAAMEOW · January 2020

k61977 said:

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

Why do people even call them pvp mmorpg when you need to grind hundreds of hours in PvE just so you are strong enough that you can PvP.

ChildoftheShadows · January 2020

AAAMEOW said:

k61977 said:

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

Why do people even call them pvp mmorpg when you need to grind hundreds of hours in PvE just so you are strong enough that you can PvP.

Character progression in an mmorpg, what a concept.

Iselin · January 2020

AAAMEOW said:

k61977 said:

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

Why do people even call them pvp mmorpg when you need to grind hundreds of hours in PvE just so you are strong enough that you can PvP.

MMORPGs are all about hundreds of hours. PvE or PvP hours has nothing to do with it. If you want to PvP at full power right from the start MMORPG PvP is not for you. Play shooters and BRs. They're there for people like you who don't actually like MMORPGs.

MMOExposed · January 2020

AAAMEOW said:

k61977 said:

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

Why do people even call them pvp mmorpg when you need to grind hundreds of hours in PvE just so you are strong enough that you can PvP.

I dont understand that about Archeage Unchained honestly. People call it a Pvp MMO, but it has large boring PvE level gring with a huge unbalance of high levels killing low levels who can't defend themselves.

Instances PvP has a Gear requirement so I can't play it unless I grind for my gear. But it's said to be a Pvp MMO

MMOExposed · January 2020

Iselin said:

AAAMEOW said:

k61977 said:

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

Why do people even call them pvp mmorpg when you need to grind hundreds of hours in PvE just so you are strong enough that you can PvP.

MMORPGs are all about hundreds of hours. PvE or PvP hours has nothing to do with it. If you want to PvP at full power right from the start MMORPG PvP is not for you. Play shooters and BRs. They're there for people like you who don't actually like MMORPGs.

Planetside 2 is a Pvp MMO. I can fight and compete from the start. I don't see why that can't translate into other styles of MMO that claim to be Pvp MMOs.

Vermillion_Raventhal · January 2020

Power gaps, no accountability and thinking like themepark are the biggest killers of PvP MMORPG IMO.

If you can be vastly more power and/or get nearly unlimited power gains and etc. It's bad. Nobody likes to be automatically stomped.

Might makes right does not work for MMORPG players. In general without permanent death or long term imprisonment. You have to guide the type of PvP. If you want Lord of the Flies then your game won't likely be popular.

Don't shape the world, goals and PvE in FFA PvP like a themepark. It's a waste of time and doesn't usually fit the theme of the game.

Theocritus · January 2020

In any company you have to target and understand your customer base.....By making it FFA PVP you are targetting a very small niche of potential players.

Theocritus · January 2020

MMOExposed said:

Iselin said:

AAAMEOW said:

k61977 said:

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

Why do people even call them pvp mmorpg when you need to grind hundreds of hours in PvE just so you are strong enough that you can PvP.

MMORPGs are all about hundreds of hours. PvE or PvP hours has nothing to do with it. If you want to PvP at full power right from the start MMORPG PvP is not for you. Play shooters and BRs. They're there for people like you who don't actually like MMORPGs.

Planetside 2 is a Pvp MMO. I can fight and compete from the start. I don't see why that can't translate into other styles of MMO that claim to be Pvp MMOs.

Well I wouldnt say I competed in Planetside 2...it was more like I died in 2 seconds very often.......

bcbully · January 2020

Dead game because of poor design. No content for anyone.

Is there anything more to say?

BruceYee · January 2020

The problem with this game and the studio as a whole is the hires.

Amazon did a great job producing shows because they hired the right people.

Ungood · January 2020

I am not sure if people know this, or remember this, but one of things that made WoW such a massive success was that the Developers were Gamers. Some of the developers of WoW, where very hardcore players of EQ, and they lived and breathed building the game they wanted to play.

And that I believe is what made WoW the juggernaut it became, it was made by gamers for gamers.

I know things went a little wonky when Smeldy said "Gamers don't know what they want" and I think more modern MMO developers have come to take this route directly, where they hire people to make a game that do not in fact play games, because they, like some of the players, have begin to break game design down to a science as opposed to an art, and why little things that would seem painfully obvious to any gamer, seem to delude them.

Such I guess is the nature of the game.

Iselin · January 2020

MMOExposed said:

Iselin said:

AAAMEOW said:

k61977 said:

There is a market for a pvp based game. The issue is that market is very small compared to the people that want pve. So what do developers do, they try an make a game that will make both groups want to play, but in the end what they make is a game that does neither good an end up only lasting few months most of the time. It all goes to the idea that if you are going to do something do it great, don't do a little of this an a little of that. So either design the entire system around something or don't do it.

Trying to force something at endgame that you didn't enforce for the first whoever long is a really, really bad design choice an is one of the main reasons a lot of MMO's end up losing players. Look at it like this. Say I wanted to be a crafter the entire game, that was all I really wanted to do. I have been able to go gather my own mats the entire game. Now I am ready to go into the endgame areas but all the sudden I can no longer collect my own mats because every time I go out I am getting jumped by a group because they don't want me crafting or collecting mats. Now I can no longer play the game the way I have played it from the start. Now you could say well this is why you need guilds or others to play with, which is a valid point. The issue is I didn't need them for the entire first 3/4 of the game. I would most likely stop playing an wouldn't suggest the game for anyone else that wanted to play that same way. That design system is basically a bait an switch system.

Why do people even call them pvp mmorpg when you need to grind hundreds of hours in PvE just so you are strong enough that you can PvP.

MMORPGs are all about hundreds of hours. PvE or PvP hours has nothing to do with it. If you want to PvP at full power right from the start MMORPG PvP is not for you. Play shooters and BRs. They're there for people like you who don't actually like MMORPGs.

Planetside 2 is a Pvp MMO. I can fight and compete from the start. I don't see why that can't translate into other styles of MMO that claim to be Pvp MMOs.

PS and PS2 are odd ducks in the MMO space. For one thing their RPG part is minimal and most people refer to them as MMOFPS not MMORPGs. They have much more in common with shooters than with RPGs.

Having said that, you must have a different idea of "compete" than me because even in PS2 there is character development that takes time and you're nowhere near good enough when you start versus others who have upgraded themselves a lot.

ESO is not quite "from the start" but you can go PvP in Cyrodiil at level 10 getting bolstered and you're not limited to the 10-49 campaign - you can join any of them including the ones with full Champion Point use. You can do it but you're only competitive if you're in a large group for protection and stick to using siege equipment because for those level doesn't matter at all. Otherwise you're just dead meat in 2 seconds against a fully leveled and geared player.

And they're not the only one that has tried to even the playing field. GW1 did the same but all they were really doing was importing shooter style PvP into an MMO or rather, near MMO since GW1 was also its own kind of weird duck. But tacking on some other genre's type of PvP into an MMO doesn't really count as MMORPG style PvP.

So I'll stick with what I said. MMORPG style PvP is just plain different from shooter style because of the RPG character development that you actually do want to take a while (If you actually do like MMORPGs that is) as well as a variety of classes with their own strengths and weaknesses. If you have that PvP will have imbalances... period.

Vermillion_Raventhal · January 2020

Ungood said:

I am not sure if people know this, or remember this, but one of things that made WoW such a massive success was that the Developers were Gamers. Some of the developers of WoW, where very hardcore players of EQ, and they lived and breathed building the game they wanted to play.

And that I believe is what made WoW the juggernaut it became, it was made by gamers for gamers.

I know things went a little wonky when Smeldy said "Gamers don't know what they want" and I think more modern MMO developers have come to take this route directly, where they hire people to make a game that do not in fact play games, because they, like some of the players, have begin to break game design down to a science as opposed to an art, and why little things that would seem painfully obvious to any gamer, seem to delude them.

Such I guess is the nature of the game.

I always wondered if developer talent has been diluted by the size of gaming industry. It's like expansion teams do to pro leagues. If you have 15 teams you usually have a top 15-20 players starting at any position. If you have 30 teams now the top 30 to 40 are starters making the competition worst.

That's not even counting talent restricted by the big companies.

Ungood · January 2020

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Ungood said:

I am not sure if people know this, or remember this, but one of things that made WoW such a massive success was that the Developers were Gamers. Some of the developers of WoW, where very hardcore players of EQ, and they lived and breathed building the game they wanted to play.

And that I believe is what made WoW the juggernaut it became, it was made by gamers for gamers.

I know things went a little wonky when Smeldy said "Gamers don't know what they want" and I think more modern MMO developers have come to take this route directly, where they hire people to make a game that do not in fact play games, because they, like some of the players, have begin to break game design down to a science as opposed to an art, and why little things that would seem painfully obvious to any gamer, seem to delude them.

Such I guess is the nature of the game.

I always wondered if developer talent has been diluted by the size of gaming industry. It's like expansion teams do to pro leagues. If you have 15 teams you usually have a top 15-20 players starting at any position. If you have 30 teams now the top 30 to 40 are starters making the competition worst.

That's not even counting talent restricted by the big companies.

I'll be honest, I do not know.

I will say, that I used to read Tales from the Trenches, and, it was very informative, there was a bit of an ongoing theme of people that took QA job (Game Tester) but had their degree in game design and/or programming, and they thought that working in the business in any means, would give them a leg up.

The theme as it went was that people who play games are looked down upon in the industry. You have a better chance to get into the gaming industry if make an App game, then anything else, in fact, going into QA is a downgrade, and can hurt your chances to get into developer positions.

So game companies are not looking for people who play games to help them design their games. Which might speak volumes about the current trend of games coming out feeling lacking, or missing the marks by a long shot, and it having nothing to do with payment model, but from where companies are pulling their talent to make the game from.

But this is just my feels on the matter.

Kyleran · January 2020

Amathe said:

MMOExposed said:

I mean come on, Do these developers live under a rock?

No. Because in an open world PvP game, someone would have taken that rock and beaten them with it.

And kept the rock afterwards.

Wizardry · January 2020

Gaming in 2020 will not be about devs abilities,their team abilities or weather they know best or not.It is as it has pretty much been from day 1,all about money and cutting corners on cost and time to market.

Smedley is now a days a complete chump when comes to being a fair person or a dev employee,he is imo completely useless to us as gamer's.

I still feel this game will release as a very sub par game but i am also certain Smedley wanted it to be out already.Amazon luckily or maybe not,will hold off for a bit,they would have been bombarded with criticism.

To this day the EQ series is/was perhaps the worst polished games i have EVER played,i am not saying bad games but no effort put into optimization or fixing bugs/glitches,this is the true face of Smedley,he DOES NOT care at all.

Just look at the total rubbish he tried to pan off on us after getting fired from DBG,it was like a $150 dollar game engine and actually no game but still he has balls,he would try and sell dirt to a camel.

IMO Amazon is making a huge mistake,this game is going to be the face of the new business venture into gaming,they blow this and they lose stock as a legit business.

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The Recent Q/A PvP Interview for New World MMO seem to confirm my theory.

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The Recent Q/A PvP Interview for New World MMO seem to confirm my theory.

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV