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OPINION: New World & The Age-Old Clash Between PvE & PvP - MMORPG.com

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  • Rastan1Rastan1 Member UncommonPosts: 74
    It's possible to walk this line with a pve and pvp game. You just have to accept that there will always be some sad sack of life that will find you because you're lower level and kill you because it tones down his fat aggression for a while. IF a means to escape the situation and move to another instance or server is possible it becomes much more doable.

    WoW classic was a good example of pvp and pve with severe ganking that was just dealt with. Warhammer online probably did things the best tho. There was plenty of pvp so there was not much need for ganking. IF they can learn from that model and also give more than the pathetic amount of PVE content Warhammer had and avoid the other 1st expansion pitfalls that ultimately killed the playerbase then I think there would be a fighting chance for a good game.

    It's asking a lot. There's been dozens of tragic attempts to make a better MMO than 2000-2008 brought but not one good innovative MMO has emerged. Just shells of MMOS that are being dealt with.
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Been thinking about this, the split between a PvP player and an MMO PvP player, is like the division between someone that is playing Mortal Kombat, and someone that is playing Pokemon. 

    For the PvP player, they want their skill, abilities and tactics as a player to determine the outcome, this keeps all the fights thrilling on any level, be it 1 vs 1, 10 vs 10, 100 vs 100. It comes down to skill and teamwork.

    For the MMO PvP player, it is mainly about the power of their toon, like the little digital pet in Pokemon, where the controller spends time building up their little pet through various activities (PvE), and then uses this pet it fight for them, and being the best is not about the players ability to win, but the pets ability to win, where encounters become a game of gauging the power disparity of the toons vs each other as oppose to player skill.

    Which, Ironically, makes these MMO PvP games akin to playing a PvE game against another player, as opposed to playing a game that pits a player vs player.

    Just some thoughts on this subject.
    bcbullyelveonePalebane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,903
    Ungood said:
    Been thinking about this, the split between a PvP player and an MMO PvP player, is like the division between someone that is playing Mortal Kombat, and someone that is playing Pokemon. 

    For the PvP player, they want their skill, abilities and tactics as a player to determine the outcome, this keeps all the fights thrilling on any level, be it 1 vs 1, 10 vs 10, 100 vs 100. It comes down to skill and teamwork.

    For the MMO PvP player, it is mainly about the power of their toon, like the little digital pet in Pokemon, where the controller spends time building up their little pet through various activities (PvE), and then uses this pet it fight for them, and being the best is not about the players ability to win, but the pets ability to win, where encounters become a game of gauging the power disparity of the toons vs each other as oppose to player skill.

    Which, Ironically, makes these MMO PvP games akin to playing a PvE game against another player, as opposed to playing a game that pits a player vs player.

    Just some thoughts on this subject.
    It's a lot simpler than that. Do you want to play casual, 10 minute PvP matches with 100% guaranteed parity and no progression except during those 10 minutes or do you actually want to PvP as part of a much longer progression system measured in 100s of hours in an MMORPG with all kinds of imbalances due to level, gear and classes... i.e all the things that mmorpg players like and why they play those games?

    It's perfectly OK to not actually like mmorpg PvP if you can''t handle the imbalances inherent in the genre. Just don't go around pretending you do.


    bcbullyelveone
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Iselin said:
    Ungood said:
    Been thinking about this, the split between a PvP player and an MMO PvP player, is like the division between someone that is playing Mortal Kombat, and someone that is playing Pokemon. 

    For the PvP player, they want their skill, abilities and tactics as a player to determine the outcome, this keeps all the fights thrilling on any level, be it 1 vs 1, 10 vs 10, 100 vs 100. It comes down to skill and teamwork.

    For the MMO PvP player, it is mainly about the power of their toon, like the little digital pet in Pokemon, where the controller spends time building up their little pet through various activities (PvE), and then uses this pet it fight for them, and being the best is not about the players ability to win, but the pets ability to win, where encounters become a game of gauging the power disparity of the toons vs each other as oppose to player skill.

    Which, Ironically, makes these MMO PvP games akin to playing a PvE game against another player, as opposed to playing a game that pits a player vs player.

    Just some thoughts on this subject.
    It's a lot simpler than that. Do you want to play casual, 10 minute PvP matches with 100% guaranteed parity and no progression except during those 10 minutes or do you actually want to PvP as part of a much longer progression system measured in 100s of hours in an MMORPG with all kinds of imbalances due to level, gear and classes... i.e all the things that mmorpg players like and why they play those games?

    It's perfectly OK to not actually like mmorpg PvP if you can''t handle the imbalances inherent in the genre. Just don't go around pretending you do.


    So what you are asking me is, Do I want to play some rounds of Mortal Kombat, or do I want to be a Pokemon Trainer ;)
    bcbullyelveonePalebane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    Also.. I have no idea what you are even talking about.

    I have never even remotely pretended to like the imbalances of levels/gear/build, that plague MMO PvP and make them sorry sacks of Toon vs Toon as opposed to Player Vs Player, and have said openly and repetitively that the best MMO PvP games are the ones that do all they can to remove those stupid kinds of imbalances.

    I get it, you want to play Toon vs Toon, it's cool, but don't pretend that it's PvP.
    bcbullyIselinelveone
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 19,901
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    UngoodPutrefee
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    edited January 2020
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen up is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Post edited by bcbully on
    PutrefeeUngoodNorseGodelveone
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...

    The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
    ScotUngoodArglebargleelveoneVynt

  • PutrefeePutrefee Member UncommonPosts: 46
    edited January 2020
    Bloodaxes said:
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...

    The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
    What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?

    Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...

    Is that acceptable? 
    elveone
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    Putrefee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...

    The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
    What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?

    Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...

    Is that acceptable? 
    Just like there's elites in WoW and other mmos, they have a set path and can be easily avoided until you feel comfortable fighting them. I don't know of any mmo that had a very high level mob amongst small level mobs in an area your level should be equivalent to the smaller level mobs. Unless I'm assuming it's for endgame then sure why not.

    So yea, that wouldn't be the best choice and it's why I don't recall any mmo I played doing it.
    UngoodelveoneVynt

  • PutrefeePutrefee Member UncommonPosts: 46
    Bloodaxes said:
    Putrefee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...

    The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
    What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?

    Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...

    Is that acceptable? 
    Just like there's elites in WoW and other mmos, they have a set path and can be easily avoided until you feel comfortable fighting them. I don't know of any mmo that had a very high level mob amongst small level mobs in an area your level should be equivalent to the smaller level mobs. Unless I'm assuming it's for endgame then sure why not.

    So yea, that wouldn't be the best choice and it's why I don't recall any mmo I played doing it.
    I understand what you mean. Everquest made pve pretty exciting in that way. Things could be going great then all of a sudden your sprinting with your group toward a zone wall yelling "Train".

    I would say that pks have patterns and can be as predictable as any scripted mob. I think a lot of human behavior can be somewhat predictable. 

    Not all PvP rulesets work either. I never liked games that let you kill people right as they respawn. Even in WoW battlegrounds, I would never participate in that practice. Farming "honor" , what a joke, in that way isn't fun to me.
    bcbullyelveonePalebane
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    edited January 2020
    Putrefee said:
    Bloodaxes said:
    bcbully said:
    Scot said:
    The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
    Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...

    Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
    Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...

    The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
    What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?

    Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...

    Is that acceptable? 
    EQ did things like that, where they mixed high and low level mobs in a zone, the example I remember vividly of this was Foon and Choon right in wolf area. Most of the time, especially with new players, it was not well received.

    I notice a lot of MMO's going forward did not adopt that kind of diversity, I wager because, overall, players didn't like it.
    Palebane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,491
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amazon has already stated that they found an immense amount of people ganking lowbies over and over. Of course the PvP crowd will ignore this fact and keep claiming PvP games fail because of PvE drama. Quite the opposite really as PvE crowds have little to no affect on how PvP works. If a game allows PvP, it allows PvP. The fact it doesn't allow you to gank lowbies all day just says something about the PvP crowd.

    DAoC has been discussed multiple times of how PvE and PvP can work well together in a RPG progression setting. At this point, the only ones still arguing are the sociopaths.
    Coming from a PvP player, I tend to agree with you. PvP players are their own worst enemy.

    The issue is, most cannot see beyond their next kill. From my experience, they never consider the longevity of the game they are playing. Players that continually make life miserable for others seem to think that the "others" will continue to submit to this abuse when in reality most will not. So, as others have pointed out, the game slowly withers and dies, then the idiot moves on to the next game, all the while bitching at the devs for "killing" the game. Rinse and repeat.

    I do enjoy PvP for the sake of competition I do not enjoy being repeatedly ganked because I started a few days behind a sociopath nor do I find joy in doing that to others. Friendly competition is one thing, just being a bell tip because you can, is another.

    I prefer the flag system, it lets people that want to PvP do so, and doesn't force the death of the game. 

    DAoC is a good example imo. 
    OzmodanArglebarglebcbullyRexKushmanelveone

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

    In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes Member EpicPosts: 4,662
    edited January 2020
    Hatefull said:
    Coming from a PvP player, I tend to agree with you. PvP players are their own worst enemy.

    The issue is, most cannot see beyond their next kill. From my experience, they never consider the longevity of the game they are playing. Players that continually make life miserable for others seem to think that the "others" will continue to submit to this abuse when in reality most will not. So, as others have pointed out, the game slowly withers and dies, then the idiot moves on to the next game, all the while bitching at the devs for "killing" the game. Rinse and repeat.

    I do enjoy PvP for the sake of competition I do not enjoy being repeatedly ganked because I started a few days behind a sociopath nor do I find joy in doing that to others. Friendly competition is one thing, just being a bell tip because you can, is another.

    I prefer the flag system, it lets people that want to PvP do so, and doesn't force the death of the game. 

    DAoC is a good example imo. 
    I remember two guys when I played conan exiles on a pve-conflict server that had different playstyles. Incase you're unfamiliar, pve-conflict had no pvp allowed until a certain timeframe. Anyway, there was this one guy who some people hated. This guy liked to pvp, but he rarely camped people just when he stumbled upon someone he wanted to fight. When confronted he would always response, he just enjoyed fighting people. I even spoke with this guy, we met and did a dungeon together. He was a nice fellow.

    Then, there was the other guy. He would log ONLY when pvp was on, camped any area that had any players (especially new players) and left when pvp was off. When someone attempted to communicate with him, never a response. I sometimes caught him running after people and he also tried to attack me many times. Every time he'd be almost dead he'd run away to heal and would come back over and over. Finally, after many days I managed to make a tiny bit of conversation with him. 

    Me: "If you like pvping so much, why aren't you playing on a pvp server?"
    Him: "I don't want to lose my building/stuff"

    See, I have a problem with people like that. They only want to please themselves, but the moment there could be a challenge he'd run away.
    PutrefeeOzmodanelveoneHatefull

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    I played 7 years in UO Felucca, but until they added the pve mirror world the game was dying.  Straight pvp MMO's don't exist for a reason, such games will not support the development staff.

    You can argue all you want, but that won't change the facts.
    UngoodArglebargle[Deleted User]elveoneSpiiderSlyLoK
  • PyukPyuk Member UncommonPosts: 762
    Save your money and wait a year after release. This thing will be garbage on launch, but maybe they can pull out something good over time like what was done for ESO.

    BTW, has Amazon games shipped ANY games, yet?

    I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  • KeushpuppyKeushpuppy Member UncommonPosts: 171
    I still think the way Asherons Call did pvp was best.....
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member EpicPosts: 3,198
    Pyuk said:
    Save your money and wait a year after release. This thing will be garbage on launch, but maybe they can pull out something good over time like what was done for ESO.

    BTW, has Amazon games shipped ANY games, yet?
    Though what ESO had to fix was their developer's intent to make ESO a skinned version of DAoC.  It was a tragic misreading of their established fanbase.  And they heard about this all through beta.
    Ozmodan

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    Hatefull said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    Amazon has already stated that they found an immense amount of people ganking lowbies over and over. Of course the PvP crowd will ignore this fact and keep claiming PvP games fail because of PvE drama. Quite the opposite really as PvE crowds have little to no affect on how PvP works. If a game allows PvP, it allows PvP. The fact it doesn't allow you to gank lowbies all day just says something about the PvP crowd.

    DAoC has been discussed multiple times of how PvE and PvP can work well together in a RPG progression setting. At this point, the only ones still arguing are the sociopaths.
    Coming from a PvP player, I tend to agree with you. PvP players are their own worst enemy.

    The issue is, most cannot see beyond their next kill. From my experience, they never consider the longevity of the game they are playing. Players that continually make life miserable for others seem to think that the "others" will continue to submit to this abuse when in reality most will not. So, as others have pointed out, the game slowly withers and dies, then the idiot moves on to the next game, all the while bitching at the devs for "killing" the game. Rinse and repeat.

    I do enjoy PvP for the sake of competition I do not enjoy being repeatedly ganked because I started a few days behind a sociopath nor do I find joy in doing that to others. Friendly competition is one thing, just being a bell tip because you can, is another.

    I prefer the flag system, it lets people that want to PvP do so, and doesn't force the death of the game. 

    DAoC is a good example imo. 
    You’re a pvpr too now huh? 

    This is getting rich lmao
    Ungoodelveone
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    edited January 2020
    bcbully said: 
    You’re a pvpr too now huh? 

    This is getting rich lmao
    Gonna burst your bubble here, but PvP is HUGE, it's Fucking Massive in the gaming world, it dwarfs the population of players that play MMO's across the world, that is why games like Fortnight is a billion dollar business, and people have become millionaires on playing those kinds of games.

    So, Just a heads up, when Companies make a PvP MMO, they are not looking to make bank off that microscopic subset of players that adore the totally flawed and unbalanced systems of yesteryears MMO PvP, they are looking to pull from that huge well of PvP players. 

    Reality Check: Real PvP players don't want an unbalanced rubbish of a game, neither do PvE players, and neither do the people that watch Streams.
    bcbullyIselinelveoneOzmodanSlyLoK
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,287
    and in the spirit of this discussion, given what I said above, it seems that the Amazon Team working on New World, also, somehow recently got that Reality Check, and are doing what they can to save their Train Wreck before it goes live, so that it can appeal to the PvP, PvE, and Streamers.
    elveone
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    It won't need to appeal to streamers,they will be paying streamer houses to play their game.
    I wouldn't even doubt we end up seeing Dr,Disrespect and his sidekick Summit1G,they seem to move from game to game,whoever pays them more.
    Personally i can't stand about 99% of the streamers,most of the females are tramps dancing or showing cleavage for money and the guys all think they are RPO gamer's ..lol,look at me i am a real pro.
    So i will tend to watch the more relaxed self driven streamers than the simple business deal ones.Angry Joe might make some good video content on games but his stream is a horrible sellout to business deals.
    So yeah we can expect to see a LOT of streamers and their houses contacted to stream this,likely even a day before the rest of us get it.Actually unless i see something good,i won't be playing it.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    Look dude this just the forums. No need for role play here lol. “Imma play the spy and infiltrate the ranks of pvprs then destroy them! Muhahaha” A damn sheep in wolfs clothing.
    Putrefeeelveone
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • evilizedevilized Member UncommonPosts: 576
    edited January 2020
    There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.

    Why can't you guys go have fun in literally any of the hundreds of MMO's out there that cater specifically to you? Why do you have to cry about PvP in any new MMO that comes out with a focus on PvP? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the game isn't meant for you to enjoy? Just like pure PvE games aren't meant for PvP focused players to enjoy?

    Probably not, because you are selfish and entitled. This is the frustration we have with Amazon's decision to neuter the PvP in New World. The last AAA MMO that released with any sort of focus on PvP was Guild Wars 2, back in 2012. When was the last MMO released with a focus on PvE? Yesterday? Last week? Last month? Last year? All of the above?

    This is coming from a person who started playing MMO's back in 1999 with Ultima Online. I have gone through just about everything that has released since then. Nothing except for Shadowbane, Darkfall, AC and SWG have come anywhere close to the openness of Ultima Online back in the early days/T2A era - New World looked like it was stepping in that direction. Not now, it would seem.

    ***I will add, an easy fix would be to enable guild war declarations and/or a faction system that is opt-in, but gives rewards for taking part, even if they are only cosmetic. If guilds can war dec each other at least they can fight over resources/land/etc in the open world like that rather than being relegated to some instanced zone that resets every 15 minutes ad infinitum. Both guilds declare on each other, or one guild declares and pays a hefty tax to go to war against a non-willing guild. This is crucial for the resource aspect of the game to function correctly.
    bcbullyPutrefeeelveoneSlyLoK
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,654
    Why do PvEers feel so entitled to invite themselves where they are not wanted?

    Look, if you don't like PvP, don't buy the game. There's plenty of PvE games for you out there that you ruined.

    Also, the idea of "forced" PvP is just lulz. Nobody invited you in the first place and certainly didn't "force" you to buy a PvP game.
    bcbullyPutrefeeelveone
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
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