I can guess from all the positive spin that DAoC is getting that few people here played a Cabalist. It was one of the most boring pet classes of any game. The horrific pet was nothing but a waste of effort in PvP. The game, even the PvP, was so unbalanced at the very first that it was laughable.
Obviously, some people's mileage differs... wildly.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I can guess from all the positive spin that DAoC is getting that few people here played a Cabalist. It was one of the most boring pet classes of any game. The horrific pet was nothing but a waste of effort in PvP. The game, even the PvP, was so unbalanced at the very first that it was laughable.
Obviously, some people's mileage differs... wildly.
Close. I played a Theurgist.
I'm not blind to the flaws beginning with their ridiculously OP'd CC system where you could perma-stun players or mez and root them for more than 60 seconds at a time.
But we're getting far away from what I understood the OP's post to be all about:
I always read from forum posters how hard it is to make pve and pvp work together. So was curious on what mmorpg you guys think combined both pve and pvp together the best to make it work and make both pvp and pve players happy?
It's not about which game had the highest technical quality PvP AND the highest technical quality PvE. It's about which game was best at having both elements together in one game with both types of players happy.
In that respect I'll still double down that no one has ever done it better than DAoC.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I can guess from all the positive spin that DAoC is getting that few people here played a Cabalist. It was one of the most boring pet classes of any game. The horrific pet was nothing but a waste of effort in PvP. The game, even the PvP, was so unbalanced at the very first that it was laughable.
Obviously, some people's mileage differs... wildly.
Close. I played a Theurgist.
I'm not blind to the flaws beginning with their ridiculously OP'd CC system where you could perma-stun players or mez and root them for more than 60 seconds at a time.
But we're getting far away from what I understood the OP's post to be all about:
I always read from forum posters how hard it is to make pve and pvp work together. So was curious on what mmorpg you guys think combined both pve and pvp together the best to make it work and make both pvp and pve players happy?
It's not about which game had the highest technical quality PvP AND the highest technical quality PvE. It's about which game was best at having both elements together in one game with both types of players happy.
In that respect I'll still double down that no one has ever done it better than DAoC.
But how was it better than Anarchy Online? In your opinion?
Never played AO enough to have an opinion. I did buy it at release but I found it an almost unplayable buggy mess and left it within two weeks. How did AO deal with the mix of PvP and PvE?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Most of the people in this thread need a mental checkup. The question has zero to do with the quality of the pve or pvp and instead ONLY questions which game handle having both in the game the best. Which game design best suited to each play style the best?
i never played daoc so I can’t speak from hands on experience but the concept does sound very solid.
Eve was pretty good, but I think the chance, as low as it may have been, to die in high sec pushes people away.
Someone mentioned darkfall and I have to say it did nothing to separate the two. In order to play that game as a pve player you have to like the danger. There were some that did, but it doesn't cater in any way to pve players that don't. Same with UO.
For me Guild Wars 1, things weren't perfect nut nothing is. I had more fun in this game doing both than any other. I rarely pvp, but I did so in this game and had a blast along with playing pve. Its one of four games I have ever done both.
I can guess from all the positive spin that DAoC is getting that few people here played a Cabalist. It was one of the most boring pet classes of any game. The horrific pet was nothing but a waste of effort in PvP. The game, even the PvP, was so unbalanced at the very first that it was laughable.
Obviously, some people's mileage differs... wildly.
Close. I played a Theurgist.
I'm not blind to the flaws beginning with their ridiculously OP'd CC system where you could perma-stun players or mez and root them for more than 60 seconds at a time.
But we're getting far away from what I understood the OP's post to be all about:
I always read from forum posters how hard it is to make pve and pvp work together. So was curious on what mmorpg you guys think combined both pve and pvp together the best to make it work and make both pvp and pve players happy?
It's not about which game had the highest technical quality PvP AND the highest technical quality PvE. It's about which game was best at having both elements together in one game with both types of players happy.
In that respect I'll still double down that no one has ever done it better than DAoC.
But how was it better than Anarchy Online? In your opinion?
I really like Ao and play it each year for 3 months or so , the classes/builds/implants is really well done ..
Notum Wars life was short , technical difficulties troubled it the entire time , if 50-75 players got in a zone it was unplayable for most and server would crash ...
The introduction of SL was the final nail in NW short life , when SL released NW was all but abandoned
In contrast , DAOC in its time at launch was widely regarded as a near flawless launch ..
The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.
The question was .. What game combined the 2 elements (best)..
It was not what game had best one or other or which was best ever at one or other,
So , now tell us the game that infused the 2 elements together better than DAOC ....
it seems that this community feels that DAOC did the best job of that ..
I did address your question with the line that "If DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be a sign we really ought to stop trying"
and IMHO this community also seems to suffer from Rose Colored Glasses Blindness.
Personally, I think some MMO developers have started to realize the major pitfalls of MMO PvP like gear/level grinds and OP-AF-FOTM Build problems, and went about trying to fix them in more viable ways, like for example, GW2 moved away from roles for their class design and tried to fix the level and gear imbalances in their WvW/sPvP, which were all steps in the right direction, making for a better overall PvP experience in an MMO, that could be enjoyed in small group style play, and even solo-roamer, as well as the traditional large scale combat. Couple that with GW2's PvE is leagues better than DOAC ever had, so I would have to say GW2 was a better overall MMO that provided both PvP & PvE available to play.
Therein lies the difference. The gear grind is DAoC wasn't necessary because a 100% crafted setup was completely viable. The dynamic gear system (templating) has yet been matched in any other game I've played. DAoC had no FOTM builds because each class had multiple, viable builds and gear options depending on your group makeup. And no single group makeup was better in all situations because each realm had different characters, so what might have worked well against Hibs, maybe didn't work well against Mids or Albs. It forced tactical combat over pure brute strength. I've seen mindless zergs get wiped out by a solid 8 man that used the terrain and tactics.
The biggest flaw in DAoC RvR was lag. I think if they remade DAoC to be identical to the original using a new engine to reduce lag and update graphics, it would do quite well.
No diss with this, and nothing personal, but if you thought OP-AF-FOTM builds did not exist in DAOC, you were simply not paying attention.
I get that this was back in the day when there was a huge amount of new-to-the-genre players, and people were still just learning, so everything was shiny and fresh and innocent.
But, I went to DAOC with my EQ raid guild, we min-maxed and exploited the fuck out of the build combs, we had people in our guild that broke the numbers down and we followed patterns to maximize to the point I was not playing my character I was running a recipe, and that flaw in MMO PvP has mainated to modern metas, and the same gaping power holes that exist today, existed back then.
Which is why the 8 of us could bust 20 man zergs, we were running meta builds while they were still doing the lazyfair "there are all kinds of viable choices"
Sadly, that also exists today in MMO PvP.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
GW2 PvP is instanced and has no bearing on the PVE world , unless you want to count those poor Trolls and frogs everyone rolls over ... That is Not PVE .. Not to mention that GW2 RvR is thought of as complete shit
Darkness fall altho an instanced Massive dungeon is PVPVE done right .. Frontiers is a Massive zone that contains both PVE content that is relative in a massive RvR zone ..
GW2 is a pretty bad MMOrpg imo that has set the genre back , and will be lucky if it can even out live a dinosaur like DAOC .. (I dont think it will )
I have no idea what trolls and fogs you are even talking about.. LOL.
But yah, making them mostly separate was an actual improvement to the dated ideas of the past, It removes the need for flags or severs or any of that junk that many other games struggle through, it's as simple as, if you want to PvP just go to the zones that have PvP and kill each other to your heart's content, if you don't want to PvP just go to the PvE Zones and PvE till your heart's content.
Just that simple. removes griefing, ganking, servers, flags, all those problems of the past.. Gone.
As for the quality of GW2 as an MMO, Personally, I think GW2 was too far ahead of its time, and people that think it was bad are just stuck in the past and lacked the ability to move forward into a new style of gameplay, like the people that were stuck on needing roles to tell them what do with themselves as opposed to learning how to work together in an game environment where everyone contributes.
Honestly, the self-sufficient build designs of GW2 lend themselves ideally to trying to balance the classes for both PvP and PvE, so that was truly a step into the future for MMO PVP class design as Interdependent or myopic class design kills any kind of dynamic ability to PvP in a game.
So while GW2 still is still rife with many of the problems that plague MMO PvP, IMO, it is by and large a massive improvement over what DAOC put out all those years ago, in both PvP and PvE.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Agreed. I can say that GW2 did it better than DAoC by a factor of 10 and I dont even like GW2. DaoC's PvE was mind numblingly boring. You can have all the right systems in place to make it work but if you can not bring them all together it is a lost cause. DAoC was a series of good ideas poorly executed in my personal opinion.
Play a pvp game or a pve game. No one will ever get it right. They are two separate types of games. The games that have had the most success with it have treated them as such.
I mean it is like there are people who like cars and people who like trucks. For people who want both you have the El Camino. We all saw how that turned out. Games that try and combine the two are the El Caminos of mmorpg genre
Not great at either being a car or a truck yet still drivable.
It has proven so hard to be good at just one or the other so stop trying to do both. No one has ever pulled it off in a fun and meaningful way to me personally.
Most MMOs that try to mix PvP and PvE are El Caminos... not great at either but hit a niche market of people that link whatever that is.
DAoC was a huge garage with a Ferrari (812 Superfast or 488 Pisa), Ford Superduty, a Prius and a vintage hot rod project. It had the best of everything. You didn't have to find one car to try and make it all happen because you had a big enough garage to have a separate car for each occasion, and separate is important.
Of course there are those people out there that are like "Ferrari's suck, Chevy not Ford, Prius is a hippy car and I don't like to get greasy"... but nothing really makes those people happy.
Elder Scroll Online. If you don't want to PvP, you don't have to. If you do, there is a challenging and fun world in Cyrodil. There is some gear that you can only get if you PvP, but honestly, it isn't that much better than what you can craft.
Some people never go into Cyrodil. Others never leave it. Most were like me and went into Cyrodil when they felt like it, although when I did go in I often stayed for hours and hours.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
Age of Wushu is probably the best example of an mmorpg that really tried to pull it off and came the closest.
Most people just think something is the best based on what they have played and not what is actually available. If they played it and like it then it was the best, regardless of there being many others that do the same things and some even better. It really just comes down to personal taste.
To be fair, I can't really gauge how well a game did something, if I never played it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
PVP was the best on DT, and the PVE was incredible and the freedom was unmatched. The depth of the gear system is still not matched today and its not even close
Vanilla WoW. I was at that perfect time where there weren't a bunch of high level griefers. Everyone was leveling up. So you'd just have these genuine skirmishes in the open world with random people around your level. Tons of fun. And all this while doing your pve content. You never knew when you'd run into someone while doing some random quest in a contested zone so you had to be vigilant. Perfect fusion of pvp and pve for me. Whether I played strong pvp classes back then like hunter and warlock, or weak ones like warrior (for solo at least), I still enjoyed it.
DAoC revolutionized the concept of pvp and integrated with pve like no other game since. The Darkness Falls dungeon is still the best dungeon concept ever created and the crafting system supplanted the mindless gear chase found in too many mmos.
ESO, which, like Warhammer, was also led by one of the DAoC guys, did a lot of things right. Cyrodiil was a blast most of the time.
The PvP in GW2 was not very good at the beginning, certainly not up to the standard of DAoC and ESO.
Warhammer was a total mess right from the get go. Too many bgs, crafting sucked, the superb world pvp areas were not used, and the game world was poorly designed.
Vanilla wow was a gear chase and pvp was abandoned early on, instanced, and ultimately put on the hamster wheel.
I am very disappointed how few Asheron's players are here
I was one, but the PvP/PvE mix was not one of AC's top selling points for me, indeed I do not rate it at all for that. The PvE, the lore, stuff like being able to write a book that others could discover in game and read, that's where AC shone.
Elder Scroll Online. If you don't want to PvP, you don't have to. If you do, there is a challenging and fun world in Cyrodil. There is some gear that you can only get if you PvP, but honestly, it isn't that much better than what you can craft.
Some people never go into Cyrodil. Others never leave it. Most were like me and went into Cyrodil when they felt like it, although when I did go in I often stayed for hours and hours.
Arena style where all PvP takes part in one zone is not bad, just a poor second to RvR.
Age of Wushu is probably the best example of an mmorpg that really tried to pull it off and came the closest.
Most people just think something is the best based on what they have played and not what is actually available. If they played it and like it then it was the best, regardless of there being many others that do the same things and some even better. It really just comes down to personal taste.
To be fair, I can't really gauge how well a game did something, if I never played it.
For give me, this should be a quick helpful read tho.
Crime and Punishment
Capturing Criminals
Players may choose to spend Tael at the Constabulary to issue a Bounty on their enemy. Once captured, the length of imprisonment varies depending on the amount of Tael spent.
1. Players must spend a minimum of 10 Liang Tael to issue a Bounty.
2. Players free of Novice Protection may spend 5 Liang Tael to become a Constable.
3. Constables can accept Bounties and receive rewards by capturing criminals.
4. Criminals will be sent to prison after they are killed.
Constable Playing Method
Each server has a maximum of 1000 constables. Constables can attack Criminals freely. Once the Criminal is captured, the Constable will receive a reward from the person who issued the Bounty. Constables lose their status if they kill too many people, they may not apply to be a constable again until they have returned to Normal Status.
Infamy and Prison Time
Each time a player kills others, they gain Infamy. When Infamy increases the color of a player’s name changes. When the player’s name turns red they will become a wanted Criminal for all Constables. Players must lower their Infamy to under 2000 to remove themselves from Bounties.
Character Infamy and Justifiable Defense
When a normal player kills a red named player (Wanted Criminal), their Infamy only increases a little. However, if players defend themselves from an attacking player, Infamy will not increase.
Infamy Scales:
Infamy ranges from 1 to 10000, character name colors change according to where the player is on the scale: Orange, Red, and Purple.
Infamy and Constables
When a player’s Infamy reaches 2000 a Bounty will be issued by the Government, and that player may be attacked by Constables (NPCs and Players) at any time.
Criminal Hunting NPCs
Patrol NPCs: The various Guards and Patrolling Disciples found in a city, town or school.
Assassin NPCs: Hidden within cities, towns, and schools these NPCs will not attack unless there is a Red Named Criminal around.
Hunter NPCs: These hidden NPCs will attack anyone whose Infamy is above 5000.
Red Name Criminal Punishment
Any Red Named player that has been killed by an NPC or other players will be put into Prison or on Death Row. Infamy between 2000-7999 will be imprisoned, +8000 will be put on Death Row.
Punishments
Prison: Located in the five major cities (Jinling, Yanjing, Suzhou, Luoyang, and Chengdu). You must stay in prison until your Infamy reaches zero.
Death Row: You will be put on Death Row in Yanjing and decapitated the next day. Once you are decapitated your Basic Attributes will be greatly affected.
Avoid Being Punished
Orange Name: You may make donations to a “Mysterious Old Man” in each city to lower your Infamy.
Red Name: You may bribe the Prison Guards to release you early.
Purple Name: Before being decapitated you may bribe the Prison Guards and hope they will find a replacement for you.
Comments
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I'm not blind to the flaws beginning with their ridiculously OP'd CC system where you could perma-stun players or mez and root them for more than 60 seconds at a time.
But we're getting far away from what I understood the OP's post to be all about:
It's not about which game had the highest technical quality PvP AND the highest technical quality PvE. It's about which game was best at having both elements together in one game with both types of players happy.
In that respect I'll still double down that no one has ever done it better than DAoC.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
i never played daoc so I can’t speak from hands on experience but the concept does sound very solid.
I get that this was back in the day when there was a huge amount of new-to-the-genre players, and people were still just learning, so everything was shiny and fresh and innocent.
But, I went to DAOC with my EQ raid guild, we min-maxed and exploited the fuck out of the build combs, we had people in our guild that broke the numbers down and we followed patterns to maximize to the point I was not playing my character I was running a recipe, and that flaw in MMO PvP has mainated to modern metas, and the same gaping power holes that exist today, existed back then.
Which is why the 8 of us could bust 20 man zergs, we were running meta builds while they were still doing the lazyfair "there are all kinds of viable choices"
Sadly, that also exists today in MMO PvP.
But yah, making them mostly separate was an actual improvement to the dated ideas of the past, It removes the need for flags or severs or any of that junk that many other games struggle through, it's as simple as, if you want to PvP just go to the zones that have PvP and kill each other to your heart's content, if you don't want to PvP just go to the PvE Zones and PvE till your heart's content.
Just that simple. removes griefing, ganking, servers, flags, all those problems of the past.. Gone.
As for the quality of GW2 as an MMO, Personally, I think GW2 was too far ahead of its time, and people that think it was bad are just stuck in the past and lacked the ability to move forward into a new style of gameplay, like the people that were stuck on needing roles to tell them what do with themselves as opposed to learning how to work together in an game environment where everyone contributes.
Honestly, the self-sufficient build designs of GW2 lend themselves ideally to trying to balance the classes for both PvP and PvE, so that was truly a step into the future for MMO PVP class design as Interdependent or myopic class design kills any kind of dynamic ability to PvP in a game.
So while GW2 still is still rife with many of the problems that plague MMO PvP, IMO, it is by and large a massive improvement over what DAOC put out all those years ago, in both PvP and PvE.
Most MMOs that try to mix PvP and PvE are El Caminos... not great at either but hit a niche market of people that link whatever that is.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Some people never go into Cyrodil. Others never leave it. Most were like me and went into Cyrodil when they felt like it, although when I did go in I often stayed for hours and hours.
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
PVP was the best on DT, and the PVE was incredible and the freedom was unmatched. The depth of the gear system is still not matched today and its not even close
Mend and Defend
ESO, which, like Warhammer, was also led by one of the DAoC guys, did a lot of things right. Cyrodiil was a blast most of the time.
The PvP in GW2 was not very good at the beginning, certainly not up to the standard of DAoC and ESO.
Warhammer was a total mess right from the get go. Too many bgs, crafting sucked, the superb world pvp areas were not used, and the game world was poorly designed.
Vanilla wow was a gear chase and pvp was abandoned early on, instanced, and ultimately put on the hamster wheel.
Arena style where all PvP takes part in one zone is not bad, just a poor second to RvR.
Capturing Criminals
Players may choose to spend Tael at the Constabulary to issue a Bounty on their enemy. Once captured, the length of imprisonment varies depending on the amount of Tael spent.
Constable Playing Method
Each server has a maximum of 1000 constables. Constables can attack Criminals freely. Once the Criminal is captured, the Constable will receive a reward from the person who issued the Bounty. Constables lose their status if they kill too many people, they may not apply to be a constable again until they have returned to Normal Status.
Infamy and Prison Time
Each time a player kills others, they gain Infamy. When Infamy increases the color of a player’s name changes. When the player’s name turns red they will become a wanted Criminal for all Constables. Players must lower their Infamy to under 2000 to remove themselves from Bounties.
Character Infamy and Justifiable Defense
When a normal player kills a red named player (Wanted Criminal), their Infamy only increases a little. However, if players defend themselves from an attacking player, Infamy will not increase.
Infamy Scales:
Infamy ranges from 1 to 10000, character name colors change according to where the player is on the scale: Orange, Red, and Purple.
Infamy and Constables
When a player’s Infamy reaches 2000 a Bounty will be issued by the Government, and that player may be attacked by Constables (NPCs and Players) at any time.
Criminal Hunting NPCs
Patrol NPCs: The various Guards and Patrolling Disciples found in a city, town or school.
Assassin NPCs: Hidden within cities, towns, and schools these NPCs will not attack unless there is a Red Named Criminal around.
Hunter NPCs: These hidden NPCs will attack anyone whose Infamy is above 5000.
Red Name Criminal Punishment
Any Red Named player that has been killed by an NPC or other players will be put into Prison or on Death Row. Infamy between 2000-7999 will be imprisoned, +8000 will be put on Death Row.
Punishments
Prison: Located in the five major cities (Jinling, Yanjing, Suzhou, Luoyang, and Chengdu). You must stay in prison until your Infamy reaches zero.
Death Row: You will be put on Death Row in Yanjing and decapitated the next day. Once you are decapitated your Basic Attributes will be greatly affected.
Avoid Being Punished
Orange Name: You may make donations to a “Mysterious Old Man” in each city to lower your Infamy.
Red Name: You may bribe the Prison Guards to release you early.
Purple Name: Before being decapitated you may bribe the Prison Guards and hope they will find a replacement for you.