Actually both polls are rather crap as they are both made form a very WoW-restricted viewpoint.
Forced raiding for items ? wtf ?
I mean, there's a shost of toehr ways out there in other games to have a better working economy and reward system for taking risk. Neither poll does justice to the possibilities of combining solo with group content more intricately and effectively.
Originally posted by M1sf1t Originally posted by zethcarn Originally posted by nomadian My preferred mmo is a mmo that encourages grouping but also has solo content for when you can't find a group or when you don't want to group one day. A game that has too much solo content or makes it very easy to solo- aka WoW I think disencourages people to group.
I feel the same way. The example of WoW is a good one and the ease of soloing greatly outwieghs the benefits of grouping. If you only solo in WoW you won't have any shot at blue items. Sure you might get lucky and get a blue or purple world drop but the odds are freaking slim to the point of making it easier to just LFG in a city and do a instance.
I'm talking about soloing for grinding... group XP should be at least 2 to 3 times better so people actually group in a *gasp* multiplayer game.
Originally posted by Rattrap I think City of Villains have the best system so far
Every mission is fitting itself to the size of the party , plus you can chose how though you want mission to be.
So if you solo you can adjust the mission to be doable - And the larger and thougher the group - thougher mission, and more reward. And than you have world areas with mob , there you can just grind if you wish to grind and solo
This works perfect, because it works for people with no time, that want to solo and go. But grouping is only way to acomplish some real progress
I have CoV/CoH but I actually dislike how I can't really complete any of the missions on my own, despite the fact that technically, you are supposed to be able to. But I find if you enter a mission on your own in CoV/CoH, all your enemies are generally going to be at least 2-3 lvls above you and I find it nearly impossible (to finish a level by myself). So, I end up spending up to 30m putting a group together (some people leave while I am putting my group together, then I can't find a healer etc). Once I get my group together, I feel obliged to play for at least an hour, cause it took so much work to get it all together, so often, I have spent 1.5 hours playing when I didn't want to play so long.
Basically, what I am arguing is that I like games like wow or Eq2 that let me jump in, solo, and jump out. I can have a very satisfying 20m play session in these games. this is not possible in games like Cov or GW, where you are essentially forced to group to do anything.
I like MMOs that make it easy for me to group if I want, but don't force me to to progress and lvl.
And to address some of the people who say why both playing an MMO if you aren't going to group, I just like knowing there are real people all around me, and that alone can make it feel social. Knowing there are real people all around is a much different feeling then NPCs everywhere.
I don't mind MMOs rewarding teams more then soloers but if I can't take part in game content by myself makes the game a hassel and I won't play a game that is a hassel.
Originally posted by napalmsweb Originally posted by Rattrap I think City of Villains have the best system so far
Every mission is fitting itself to the size of the party , plus you can chose how though you want mission to be.
So if you solo you can adjust the mission to be doable - And the larger and thougher the group - thougher mission, and more reward. And than you have world areas with mob , there you can just grind if you wish to grind and solo
This works perfect, because it works for people with no time, that want to solo and go. But grouping is only way to acomplish some real progress
I have CoV/CoH but I actually dislike how I can't really complete any of the missions on my own, despite the fact that technically, you are supposed to be able to. But I find if you enter a mission on your own in CoV/CoH, all your enemies are generally going to be at least 2-3 lvls above you and I find it nearly impossible (to finish a level by myself). So, I end up spending up to 30m putting a group together (some people leave while I am putting my group together, then I can't find a healer etc). Once I get my group together, I feel obliged to play for at least an hour, cause it took so much work to get it all together, so often, I have spent 1.5 hours playing when I didn't want to play so long.
Basically, what I am arguing is that I like games like wow or Eq2 that let me jump in, solo, and jump out. I can have a very satisfying 20m play session in these games. this is not possible in games like Cov or GW, where you are essentially forced to group to do anything.
I like MMOs that make it easy for me to group if I want, but don't force me to to progress and lvl.
And to address some of the people who say why both playing an MMO if you aren't going to group, I just like knowing there are real people all around me, and that alone can make it feel social. Knowing there are real people all around is a much different feeling then NPCs everywhere.
While in mather of being SOLO able , i can not agree more.
I really find it strange you feel missions are not soloable in COH/COV. You are maybe forgetting to set your reputation to a lowest level, than all the enemies are roughly a level or two below you.... Again maybe your play experience there is predating most recent gameplay changes ... i dont know...
Anyway , i agree completely.
Real satisfacion in MMO is in getting a good group to tackle missions together, working as a team.
But soloing is as important.
When you solo , you are free to explore , experiment and basically do what pleases you in the moment.. stop to admire the area graphic, talk with NPC ... or rearange your inventory.
In group you are mostly forced into action all the time , and sometime you dont feel like it
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
If you want to never have to group with another person, to never have to talk to a person to trade with them, and to never have to roleplay (communicate or interact with them in-character) with another player in a MMORPG, I personally have a hard time understanding why you want to play a MMORPG. And an even harder time why you think MMORPG developers should cater to you.
Let me be clear - I don't want to have to be FORCED to do anything, whether it be to interact with someone or do something solo. But I do want the game to figure out how to make a community in the game a valued-added asset, and not just a "it's cool to be surrounded by real people who I can treat or kill just like I would an NPC if I wanted to" thing.
There are really two different genres here:
Massively Multiplayer Online Games with some RPG mechanics such leveling up, some PvP, and some raids and dungeon crawls for high levels with actual roleplaying and grouping being the exception and the not norm.
Massively Multiplayer Online Games with RPG mechanics, deep story lines and arcs, some solo content but more group/collaborative content and benefits, and an environment and community that is actually condusive to roleplaying with other players.
Unfortunately, games like #1 continue to pose as MMORPGs when they are really just MMOGs, and there aren't enough of #2 out there anymore. I wish these companies would start making the distinction more clearly, so we wouldn't have to have debates like this one in the first place - we'd have separate games.
The problem really seems to be on one's definition of what "soloing" means.
For me, soloing means the ability to do "effective solo combat" against a wide variety and levels of mobs so that one can gain XP and money/loot to advance to the highest character levels.
That does NOT mean that ALL quests, all dungeons, all boss mobs, etc., would be able to be done by "a single player."
Example: AC1 was and still is one of the most solo-combat-friendly games created. There are many things you can accomplish through your own individual efforts; however, by NO means can all things be accomplished by the solo player. Many of the high-level quests and dungeons are so difficult as to need well-rounded groups of players to complete them. And THAT, as far as I am concerned, is precisely how a game should be designed. This allows you to make maximum effective use of your time, but also allows for periods of group play where others are needed to accomplish very difficult tasks.
The part that makes any game "massively multiplayer" is the need to group for the big quests and the need of other players to offer "services" which the individual player cannot or does not want to do alone. Crafting specialties are done by some people, gathering rare items by others, selling components and ingredients by others, etc. THIS is what makes a community and actually makes the game feel like a living world.
Here is this age old debate again. I think that the people who don't agree with solo content think that the solo players want the same loot and experience as groups and raiders. That isn't the case. What solo players want is simply to have a rewarding time playing the game. Currently for the most part that isn't what is going on. For the most part I think solo players want to experience the game world. They want to absorb the lore. They want to enjoy the stories and make a mark on the world. You really can't do this in a raid or even a group.
You see when your in a group, you can't read the missions. You can't stop and look at the mobs or arctitecture. You just run in, kill, kill, kill to get xp really quick and get nice loot. Sure you can say you slayed the dragon, but how many people in the group know why your killing it? Or know why it is where it is?
So why not just play a single player game? Simple with the exception of Oblivion there are no single player games with the size and scope of MMO's. You don't have the freedom, you don't have different factions, you don't have new areas added on a regular basis. A single player game is a static game. MMO's are not.
I wish players and developers would move away from this idea that a MMO is simply a place where people group together and kill things. That's not what they are. While MMO does stand for Massivly Multiplayer Online, that simply means that there are lots of players in the game. What they should be viewed as is a virtual world. Content should be created not simply to give playes something to kill, but should be created to make that world come alive.
Well I play Eve so theres no levels, and no max level, and you don't gain skills by killing stuff.
You basically make cash to advance your profession, you can make a ton of cash solo, but its meaningless without a team to be part of, very lonely if you're not in a corp.
You see when your in a group, you can't read the missions. You can't stop and look at the mobs or arctitecture. You just run in, kill, kill, kill to get xp really quick and get nice loot. Sure you can say you slayed the dragon, but how many people in the group know why your killing it? Or know why it is where it is?
Even when soloing, I typically don't read much but simply accept the quest and check my map to see where I have to go. My goal in MMO's is to lvl, get cash/xp, and buy stuff that makes my char better. ideally, I could do these things both in a group and by myself, depending on my mood.
$OE lies list http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0 " And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
My biggest problem with grouping is the amount of time required to complete a quest or instance. It is hard for me to focus and concentrate on a quest for more than 2 hours without having to take a break. People like to rush through an instance (taking WoW as an example). I like taking my time and weigh strategies. End games that take 4-5 or more dedicated hours are out of the question.When I solo I can leave a game any time I like. If grouping consisted of short quests, I'd commit to grouping far more often. Or if you are are capable of taking a short break once in a while would help.
Another thing I don't like about grouping is that in the games I've played there are loot drops where more than 1 person in the group can use. So you can spend hours grouping and not acquire anything of value and have to run the same quest again and again.
Personally I'd rather have an open-ended game where I choose what I want to use or do or be a part of a guild that is working for a common goal. Most importantly the game has to be fun.
Originally posted by Bloodgaze i am a very solo person. there are alot of ppl out there who only want what they want so bleep off half way thru something you need them for, so if you only rely on yourself, you dont have to worry about getting bleeped over.
lol , i would have worded it differently but thats pretty much how i feel
Soloing sucks and is such a lame experience mostly. When you group you just have more fun all around. So frustrating that so many people want to solo in an online game. Why bother playing online? Just so you can stand around the auction house and crack Chuck Norris jokes? So lame.
Why anyone would want to group with them, I don't know.
Far better to solo until someone you actually like logs in.
My feeling is that if you can't find a group in a game with 2,000 people on the server, or everyone you ask appears to be soloing, you might be missing something.
I like MMOs because there is a sense of being in an interactive world. That does not mean I want to group with people to accomplish tasks. Right now I play GW and while I use the henchmen system for about 75% of play - The chat with friends, guild mates people in towns still brings the world to life and give the community feel. WoW did this to an extent as well. Playing online doesn't meean I always want to quest with other people. Also, we have lives - sometimes we don't play long or need to leave quickly without impacting others. The game should be flexablie to accomodate this - which often means ability to do most tasks solo.
I tried DDO and (among many other issues) the forced grouping was a nightmare. You can't solo anything there - and dispite the hardcore D&D geek crowds insistance that this was in the spirit of D&D it make an inaccessable game to many, because unless you have 4 hours to play, you might as well not turn the game on. There isn't time to do anything
Originally posted by anarchyart Soloing sucks and is such a lame experience mostly. When you group you just have more fun all around. So frustrating that so many people want to solo in an online game. Why bother playing online? Just so you can stand around the auction house and crack Chuck Norris jokes? So lame. Soloing Sucks™
Your opinion - and the way you enjoy the game. Good for you. My take is the good games accomodate a variety of play styles and are flexable. your experience doesn't equate to everyones. Many may find grouping sucks.
I couldn't answer your poll because none of the choices reflect my opinion. I am a solo player. That does not mean, however, that I am anti-social. I would choose to group for about 10% of my game play time. True, MMO's are social games. Game designers would do well, however, to create alternate options for social interaction. Examples are politics, city building, guild participation (chat, skill training, crafting, social events), trade zones, hired help, etc... There are mmo's that have build or are building many of these features.
That said, a solo player should not be able to take on the same boss + minions that a group or raid would take. However, that solo player, if good, might be able sneak into a compound, kill one or two guards, and help himself to the treasure they were guarding. In this way, there should be some way in which a solo player can esperience that vast majority of a game's content without being able to do the damage or get the same experience reward as the player who is grouped.
Originally posted by anarchyart Soloing sucks and is such a lame experience mostly. When you group you just have more fun all around. So frustrating that so many people want to solo in an online game. Why bother playing online? Just so you can stand around the auction house and crack Chuck Norris jokes? So lame. Soloing Sucks™
Play games like Vanguard if you believe in forced grouping. You won't see many soloers there.
Personally I think raiding and forced grouping is a lame experience, relying on others to accomplish a goal instead of challenging yourself and testing your skills to the fullest of their abilities. I've seen it all before, the raiders and guildies who boast of their accomplishments by riding on the coattails of others.
Though raiding and forced grouping don't appeal to me, I am not so intolerant as to condemn other playstyle choices as you are, I simply won't play games that are not solo friendly.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by zethcarn Originally posted by nomadian My preferred mmo is a mmo that encourages grouping but also has solo content for when you can't find a group or when you don't want to group one day. A game that has too much solo content or makes it very easy to solo- aka WoW I think disencourages people to group.
I feel the same way. The example of WoW is a good one and the ease of soloing greatly outwieghs the benefits of grouping. Original EQ1 was a solo friendly game yet challenging unlike WoW, mainly because of a significant battle loss penalty and a harder leveling process. Many players including myself still chose to solo almost exclusively in EQ1, not because it was easier than grouping, but because we enjoy accomplishing goals alone and being self sufficient.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
I like to have the choice to do all of the above. I don't understand people who try to "force" their play style on to others. Play the way you like to and worry less about how some of the other players like to play the game. Diversity is good!
Soloing should always be a viable method of productivity, however grouping should also benefit your progress depending on what you're focussing on achieving. For example, in PvP, you would be able to solo and rack up kills provided you possess the skill, but the process would be much easier if you were in a party, due to overwhelming numbers.
First of all, nobody is ever forced to play a game and nobody is ever forced to do anything within a game. It may be beneficial to do different types of activities or be involved in certain types of play, but you are never forced. The poll is biased.
Secondly, Massively Multiplayer games should mainly focus on the massively multiplayer aspect or community. This is the main advantage that they have over other games and therefore they should take advantage of it, offering activities that encourage players to play and compete together.
In any game you are always free to do what you want, even if that means sittting there and doing nothing or walking away from the game. You may not be very competitive if you do so, but that is your choice. "Force" never belongs in any discussion about games, the only time people use it is in feeble attempts at making a point.
Comments
Actually both polls are rather crap as they are both made form a very WoW-restricted viewpoint.
Forced raiding for items ? wtf ?
I mean, there's a shost of toehr ways out there in other games to have a better working economy and reward system for taking risk. Neither poll does justice to the possibilities of combining solo with group content more intricately and effectively.
If you only solo in WoW you won't have any shot at blue items. Sure you might get lucky and get a blue or purple world drop but the odds are freaking slim to the point of making it easier to just LFG in a city and do a instance.
I'm talking about soloing for grinding... group XP should be at least 2 to 3 times better so people actually group in a *gasp* multiplayer game.
Basically, what I am arguing is that I like games like wow or Eq2 that let me jump in, solo, and jump out. I can have a very satisfying 20m play session in these games. this is not possible in games like Cov or GW, where you are essentially forced to group to do anything.
I like MMOs that make it easy for me to group if I want, but don't force me to to progress and lvl.
And to address some of the people who say why both playing an MMO if you aren't going to group, I just like knowing there are real people all around me, and that alone can make it feel social. Knowing there are real people all around is a much different feeling then NPCs everywhere.
Basically, what I am arguing is that I like games like wow or Eq2 that let me jump in, solo, and jump out. I can have a very satisfying 20m play session in these games. this is not possible in games like Cov or GW, where you are essentially forced to group to do anything.
I like MMOs that make it easy for me to group if I want, but don't force me to to progress and lvl.
And to address some of the people who say why both playing an MMO if you aren't going to group, I just like knowing there are real people all around me, and that alone can make it feel social. Knowing there are real people all around is a much different feeling then NPCs everywhere.
While in mather of being SOLO able , i can not agree more.
I really find it strange you feel missions are not soloable in COH/COV.
You are maybe forgetting to set your reputation to a lowest level, than all the enemies are roughly a level or two below you.... Again maybe your play experience there is predating most recent gameplay changes ... i dont know...
Anyway , i agree completely.
Real satisfacion in MMO is in getting a good group to tackle missions together, working as a team.
But soloing is as important.
When you solo , you are free to explore , experiment and basically do what pleases you in the moment.. stop to admire the area graphic, talk with NPC ... or rearange your inventory.
In group you are mostly forced into action all the time , and sometime you dont feel like it
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
I didn't know I could lower my reputation and thus lower the lvl of the enemies. I will have to give that a try! Thanks.
edit: turns out I had my hero at invincible, which is the hardest level! thanks again for advice.
Let me be clear - I don't want to have to be FORCED to do anything, whether it be to interact with someone or do something solo. But I do want the game to figure out how to make a community in the game a valued-added asset, and not just a "it's cool to be surrounded by real people who I can treat or kill just like I would an NPC if I wanted to" thing.
There are really two different genres here:
- Massively Multiplayer Online Games with some RPG mechanics such leveling up, some PvP, and some raids and dungeon crawls for high levels with actual roleplaying and grouping being the exception and the not norm.
- Massively Multiplayer Online Games with RPG mechanics, deep story lines and arcs, some solo content but more group/collaborative content and benefits, and an environment and community that is actually condusive to roleplaying with other players.
Unfortunately, games like #1 continue to pose as MMORPGs when they are really just MMOGs, and there aren't enough of #2 out there anymore. I wish these companies would start making the distinction more clearly, so we wouldn't have to have debates like this one in the first place - we'd have separate games.But we don't want seperate games, we want games with content for us all, so that we have a decent playerbase and a populated world.
The problem really seems to be on one's definition of what "soloing" means.
For me, soloing means the ability to do "effective solo combat" against a wide variety and levels of mobs so that one can gain XP and money/loot to advance to the highest character levels.
That does NOT mean that ALL quests, all dungeons, all boss mobs, etc., would be able to be done by "a single player."
Example: AC1 was and still is one of the most solo-combat-friendly games created. There are many things you can accomplish through your own individual efforts; however, by NO means can all things be accomplished by the solo player. Many of the high-level quests and dungeons are so difficult as to need well-rounded groups of players to complete them. And THAT, as far as I am concerned, is precisely how a game should be designed. This allows you to make maximum effective use of your time, but also allows for periods of group play where others are needed to accomplish very difficult tasks.
The part that makes any game "massively multiplayer" is the need to group for the big quests and the need of other players to offer "services" which the individual player cannot or does not want to do alone. Crafting specialties are done by some people, gathering rare items by others, selling components and ingredients by others, etc. THIS is what makes a community and actually makes the game feel like a living world.
~ Ancient Membership ~
You see when your in a group, you can't read the missions. You can't stop and look at the mobs or arctitecture. You just run in, kill, kill, kill to get xp really quick and get nice loot. Sure you can say you slayed the dragon, but how many people in the group know why your killing it? Or know why it is where it is?
So why not just play a single player game? Simple with the exception of Oblivion there are no single player games with the size and scope of MMO's. You don't have the freedom, you don't have different factions, you don't have new areas added on a regular basis. A single player game is a static game. MMO's are not.
I wish players and developers would move away from this idea that a MMO is simply a place where people group together and kill things. That's not what they are. While MMO does stand for Massivly Multiplayer Online, that simply means that there are lots of players in the game. What they should be viewed as is a virtual world. Content should be created not simply to give playes something to kill, but should be created to make that world come alive.
Anyway enough rambling, those are my thoughts.
You basically make cash to advance your profession, you can make a ton of cash solo, but its meaningless without a team to be part of, very lonely if you're not in a corp.
Just handle over pre-CU to me
$OE lies list
http://www.rlmmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=424&start=0
"
And I don't want to hear anything about "I don't believe in vampires" because *I* don't believe in vampires, but I believe in my own two eyes, and what *I* saw is ******* vampires! "
My biggest problem with grouping is the amount of time required to complete a quest or instance. It is hard for me to focus and concentrate on a quest for more than 2 hours without having to take a break. People like to rush through an instance (taking WoW as an example). I like taking my time and weigh strategies. End games that take 4-5 or more dedicated hours are out of the question.When I solo I can leave a game any time I like. If grouping consisted of short quests, I'd commit to grouping far more often. Or if you are are capable of taking a short break once in a while would help.
Another thing I don't like about grouping is that in the games I've played there are loot drops where more than 1 person in the group can use. So you can spend hours grouping and not acquire anything of value and have to run the same quest again and again.
Personally I'd rather have an open-ended game where I choose what I want to use or do or be a part of a guild that is working for a common goal. Most importantly the game has to be fun.
Soloing sucks and is such a lame experience mostly. When you group you just have more fun all around. So frustrating that so many people want to solo in an online game. Why bother playing online? Just so you can stand around the auction house and crack Chuck Norris jokes? So lame.
Soloing Sucks™
There are too many teenagers in the world.
Why anyone would want to group with them, I don't know.
Far better to solo until someone you actually like logs in.
My feeling is that if you can't find a group in a game with 2,000 people on the server, or everyone you ask appears to be soloing, you might be missing something.
I tried DDO and (among many other issues) the forced grouping was a nightmare. You can't solo anything there - and dispite the hardcore D&D geek crowds insistance that this was in the spirit of D&D it make an inaccessable game to many, because unless you have 4 hours to play, you might as well not turn the game on. There isn't time to do anything
I couldn't answer your poll because none of the choices reflect my opinion. I am a solo player. That does not mean, however, that I am anti-social. I would choose to group for about 10% of my game play time. True, MMO's are social games. Game designers would do well, however, to create alternate options for social interaction. Examples are politics, city building, guild participation (chat, skill training, crafting, social events), trade zones, hired help, etc... There are mmo's that have build or are building many of these features.
That said, a solo player should not be able to take on the same boss + minions that a group or raid would take. However, that solo player, if good, might be able sneak into a compound, kill one or two guards, and help himself to the treasure they were guarding. In this way, there should be some way in which a solo player can esperience that vast majority of a game's content without being able to do the damage or get the same experience reward as the player who is grouped.
Play games like Vanguard if you believe in forced grouping. You won't see many soloers there.
Personally I think raiding and forced grouping is a lame experience, relying on others to accomplish a goal instead of challenging yourself and testing your skills to the fullest of their abilities. I've seen it all before, the raiders and guildies who boast of their accomplishments by riding on the coattails of others.
Though raiding and forced grouping don't appeal to me, I am not so intolerant as to condemn other playstyle choices as you are, I simply won't play games that are not solo friendly.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Original EQ1 was a solo friendly game yet challenging unlike WoW, mainly because of a significant battle loss penalty and a harder leveling process. Many players including myself still chose to solo almost exclusively in EQ1, not because it was easier than grouping, but because we enjoy accomplishing goals alone and being self sufficient.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I like to have the choice to do all of the above. I don't understand people who try to "force" their play style on to others. Play the way you like to and worry less about how some of the other players like to play the game. Diversity is good!
First of all, nobody is ever forced to play a game and nobody is ever forced to do anything within a game. It may be beneficial to do different types of activities or be involved in certain types of play, but you are never forced. The poll is biased.
Secondly, Massively Multiplayer games should mainly focus on the massively multiplayer aspect or community. This is the main advantage that they have over other games and therefore they should take advantage of it, offering activities that encourage players to play and compete together.
In any game you are always free to do what you want, even if that means sittting there and doing nothing or walking away from the game. You may not be very competitive if you do so, but that is your choice. "Force" never belongs in any discussion about games, the only time people use it is in feeble attempts at making a point.