Satisfaction with farming NPC spawns or running hero journey quest/dungeons/raiding is baffling to me. Not to say those weren't or aren't ok things to do in MMORPG. I just don't think it should be the limit of what MMORPG.
I barely hear anyone talk about the idea. I know the tech isn't here for true AI but scripted procedurally content or some precursors to be used being pushed seems like a good idea.
This is why people like PvP and sandbox MMOs. Playing against computer generated in a predetermined scripted story can get old.
I want AI world government - replace the pathetic excuses we have for world leaders and governments.
Turn humans into pets - we'll make great pets!
I'm always pissing off my daughter these days by telling her I'm sick of democracy. I want a philosopher king or benevolent dictator instead. An AI would work
Why king or dictator when you can create deus machina ? we need no king or dictator but god
I want AI world government - replace the pathetic excuses we have for world leaders and governments.
Turn humans into pets - we'll make great pets!
I'm always pissing off my daughter these days by telling her I'm sick of democracy. I want a philosopher king or benevolent dictator instead. An AI would work
Why king or dictator when you can create deus machina ? we need no king or dictator but god
I've come across too many PvP'ers that don't want a challenge, thus they go after easy prey.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
AI, or rather the primitive first steps we call AI these days, is nowhere near the scifi AI needed for it to behave like a human dungeon master.
It can simulate and beat humans at things like chess because it is a very narrow and computationally heavy activity. But when you throw many diverse tasks at it with a lot of possibilities each it craps the bed.
That's not to say that games can't be improved with some AI routines used for some narrow tasks and there are games that do some of that already. Even games as simple as EA's NHL series have used adaptive routines to learn your patterns and adapt to counter... up to a point, because it's pretty easy for a human player to adapt to the game's adaptations and still beat the crap out of it.
In a Sci-Fi book series I read regularly (Acorna, the Unicorn Girl by Anne McCaffrey), there is a scientist that is working on a weather prediction routine. It is impossible because the number of input variables is endless and constantly changing as the routine tries predict. I see the same thing in a "game master" AI trying to act human. There are just too many variables that can't be foreseen.
I would like to see better AI, but definitely not "perfect AI." The computer never misses because it has exact information that players don't. I have to judge how high to to shoot to count for missile droppage over distance. AI knows exactly which pixels my character is occupying and how many pixels is between us, along with height differences in pixels. But having AI that doesn't get "stuck" on obstacles, can't jump (Skyrim NPCs), can't path is awful and should be fixed by now.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm pretty sure it's more than possible to have AI gamemaster created/controlled worlds to play on as an mmo.
Supervised procedural generated content would be a fair start, I guess.
Look at dwarf fortress for example. Every new game start creates a new world with thousands npcs populating a many hundreds of year old world with history, battles, kingdoms etc.
Of course, for an mmorpg there should be more distinct limits to not go too crazy. But possible? Yup. I'd like to play on a absolutely unique created world setting, every time I choose a different server.
Procedural generation is usually nothing more than a band-aid for bad game design. I'll take hand-crafted content any day.
I think they both have their pro's and con's. Hand-crafted is limited to story driven content which results in very limited replay value. SWTOR is an excellent example of very well designed or hand-crafted content. Problem is, after you play through a story, then what? Granted, SWTOR has several classes, so the replay value is then limited to the amount of classes you have to choose from. After that, you're left with doing the same story content all over again.
Procedural generated content provides ENDLESS content. It may not have the detail of hand-crafted, but it certainly offers something hand-crafted content does not, longevity.
Not to mention to make content bountiful a large amount of quest are generic. Not to mention you are solving the same shared quest with other players and even alts.
Most players also skip past quest dialog and just complete the action. Will it really hurt to have generic dialogue for filler quest?
Quest dialog can improve with time and more and more variables added over time. Not to mention possiblity for branching quest.
Depending on how procedural your design is you can have a procedural nemesis affect local quest. Like evil orc lord and his band of black orcs begin showing up in local quest all of a sudden. You realize there is an Orc problem somewhere that can actually be solved.
You can have flexibility with NPCs. Friendly wood elf village got wiped out due to nobody solving the orc problem. Maybe someone solves it and in time semi-hostile red dwarves move in. You can befriend them or not.
I think chalking up scripting and AI to just getting a bunch of generic quest is short sighted.
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Covert Action had procedural driven missions and was released in 1990. That was the first game I remember. Skyrim also had some very basic stuff.
I just think it's not used in MMORPG because of WoW become the standard for the genre. Same reason NPC grinding/camping and Sandbox MMORPG went the way of the dodo.
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Nearly every game implements some procedurally generated content. The devs just mix it up with hand-crafted stuff.
There are also a lot of games with completely procedural maps: Minecraft, Terraria, a lot of roguelike games, etc. Some games even have procedurally generated story events (eg. Rimworld). Procedural quest generation has also been used somewhat (eg. Skyrim's radiant quests).
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Covert Action had procedural driven missions and was released in 1990. That was the first game I remember. Skyrim also had some very basic stuff.
I just think it's not used in MMORPG because of WoW become the standard for the genre. Same reason NPC grinding/camping and Sandbox MMORPG went the way of the dodo.
I dont' realize skyrim have anything that sound like what you described. At least in terms of scale.
GW2 dynamic events, and Ryzom world probably also resemble a bit of what you describe. But your game sound like a game which is constantly changing in a much grander scale.
I dont' think the game would be easy to make. Try to make a MUD. Now try to make a MUD and implement what you described. It'll be very tedious to implement all the possible outcome.
Satisfaction with farming NPC spawns or running hero journey quest/dungeons/raiding is baffling to me. Not to say those weren't or aren't ok things to do in MMORPG. I just don't think it should be the limit of what MMORPG.
I barely hear anyone talk about the idea. I know the tech isn't here for true AI but scripted procedurally content or some precursors to be used being pushed seems like a good idea.
Hey Vermillion, just popping in to say I'm interested in this topic. Time is short, though, at present. I do remember we talked about your idea a year or two ago, and as I recall, I liked it a lot. I want to read this thread before I get involved. Just wanted to let you know.
I want AI world government - replace the pathetic excuses we have for world leaders and governments.
Turn humans into pets - we'll make great pets!
I'm always pissing off my daughter these days by telling her I'm sick of democracy. I want a philosopher king or benevolent dictator instead. An AI would work
Why king or dictator when you can create deus machina ? we need no king or dictator but god
We can't create deus machina.
We can create AI that can eventually create deus machina.
Once we create AI that is good enough to self create, improve and make itself smarter - our job as species is done and humanity can be sunset just like a dead MMO.
You say that like you don't have any skin in the game.
Generating content, NPC AI and 'dungeon master' type AI are different things.
You could make NPC's smarter: like they run and get help more and stab healers in the back etc but imagine the player response.
You could make a dungeon master AI that organises NPC activities like roaming hordes and compete well enough, like the EQ Next stuff shown off.
Generating content is another matter, I dont know if there is a successful existing example or analogy to this.
That's just it. To make matters more interesting, sometimes you'd have to mix those ingredients.
One thing you don't want is ONLY a world AI. What you want is a MOB group AI. And you want it to have random, but weighted, choices so as to allow "mistakes" that turn the battle at least briefly. As a very simple explanation, say you have a MOB group that has fighters and healers/spell casters.
Assuming this MOB group is evenly matched with the Player group, it doesn't matter if the MOB heals or casts spells, as it maintains the balance.
So, as MOBs take damage, the AI may choose to heal as a choice, and the more damage, the more likely to heal because of the weighted system. But since it's not definite, the MOB may "screw up" and not heal, causing a loss of numbers more quickly. The succeeding rounds have fewer attacks or heals on their side.
On the flip side, it may be the Player group that screws up. Then again, the players may concentrate on the healers and eventually take them out of the equation.
That's a very simple example. But that's just the NPC AI.
Now lets add in the dungeon master AI to this fight. For this, I think dungeons, as well as other locations, should have spots where tactics can apply. And these tactics offer new choices to the MOB group AI. Now, instead of just attacking and healing, the MOB AI may read and add the choice to take on a defensive strategy supplied by the "dungeon master" AI. They may back into an alcove with healers in the rear and a wall of fighters in the front. Now the players can't get to the healers without ranged attacks.
There are many things that can be done here as additional choices.
Note that none of this actually changes the outcome unless there are "screw ups." But it does do three things 1. It makes each battle different. 2. It allows randomness that allows for mistakes, or even tide turners to the benefit. 3. It gives players things to look for that they can prevent from happening, and affect the battle to their benefit.
Also, there are different kinds of MOBs. Animal types aren't going to use these tactics. Dragons have whole new tactics. So each dungeon room, depending on the tactics available and the MOB type, is a different experience each time players go there.
By the way, as far as MOB group AI, what this needs is a tiered AI. It starts with basic animal AI of fight or flight. Higher INT MOBs add more choices based on INT, as well as what exactly they are (Orcs vs. Dragons). But they all have the basic fight/flight beginner AI.
Satisfaction with farming NPC spawns or running hero journey quest/dungeons/raiding is baffling to me. Not to say those weren't or aren't ok things to do in MMORPG. I just don't think it should be the limit of what MMORPG.
I barely hear anyone talk about the idea. I know the tech isn't here for true AI but scripted procedurally content or some precursors to be used being pushed seems like a good idea.
Is it that the tech isn't there for "true ai" (I think it is if we we have programs that can beat a person at chess) or is it that the tech isn't there to stream that ai back and forth between client and player?
Or some other issue.
I recall reading articles where developers stated that it was easy enough to make ai to beat players but that isn't fun. What is fun is creating an ai that makes it seem like the player has a chance and even giving them a bit of a chance.
For an AI to be so difficult that players can't beat it isn't a serious concern unless it's difficult for players to deal any damage at all. If a smarter AI makes it hard for players to win, try cutting the mob health in half. Still too hard? Cut the mob damage in half, too. And keep doing that until it's no longer too difficult. Scaling health and damage far enough will make the mob too easy, unless the AI is so smart that players can't hit it at all.
You can't have smart AI together with players with a thousand HP fighting mobs with a million HP. But since when do you need to have players with a thousand HP fighting mobs with a million? Pairing that with mobs that are really dumb and focus exclusively on the heavily armored tank isn't "epic"; it's stupid.
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Covert Action had procedural driven missions and was released in 1990. That was the first game I remember. Skyrim also had some very basic stuff.
I just think it's not used in MMORPG because of WoW become the standard for the genre. Same reason NPC grinding/camping and Sandbox MMORPG went the way of the dodo.
I dont' realize skyrim have anything that sound like what you described. At least in terms of scale.
GW2 dynamic events, and Ryzom world probably also resemble a bit of what you describe. But your game sound like a game which is constantly changing in a much grander scale.
I dont' think the game would be easy to make. Try to make a MUD. Now try to make a MUD and implement what you described. It'll be very tedious to implement all the possible outcome.
Guild Wars 2's dynamic events are hand-crafted. Each event is hand-crafted, and then it just picks which one to run.
Anarchy Online is a much better example of procedurally generated content in an MMORPG.
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Covert Action had procedural driven missions and was released in 1990. That was the first game I remember. Skyrim also had some very basic stuff.
I just think it's not used in MMORPG because of WoW become the standard for the genre. Same reason NPC grinding/camping and Sandbox MMORPG went the way of the dodo.
I dont' realize skyrim have anything that sound like what you described. At least in terms of scale.
GW2 dynamic events, and Ryzom world probably also resemble a bit of what you describe. But your game sound like a game which is constantly changing in a much grander scale.
I dont' think the game would be easy to make. Try to make a MUD. Now try to make a MUD and implement what you described. It'll be very tedious to implement all the possible outcome.
Guild Wars 2's dynamic events are hand-crafted. Each event is hand-crafted, and then it just picks which one to run.
Anarchy Online is a much better example of procedurally generated content in an MMORPG.
I never got into Anarchy. Have tried over the years. How did those systems work? Random kill/collect quest? Thing with procedural questing is while basic to start systems can get better and deeper. But there has to be a start.
Satisfaction with farming NPC spawns or running hero journey quest/dungeons/raiding is baffling to me. Not to say those weren't or aren't ok things to do in MMORPG. I just don't think it should be the limit of what MMORPG.
I barely hear anyone talk about the idea. I know the tech isn't here for true AI but scripted procedurally content or some precursors to be used being pushed seems like a good idea.
Is it that the tech isn't there for "true ai" (I think it is if we we have programs that can beat a person at chess) or is it that the tech isn't there to stream that ai back and forth between client and player?
Or some other issue.
I recall reading articles where developers stated that it was easy enough to make ai to beat players but that isn't fun. What is fun is creating an ai that makes it seem like the player has a chance and even giving them a bit of a chance.
Yeah, players want to win. Players like predictable opponents. Raids are kind of like organized dance performances. Figure out the pattern and make your character do the correct dance moves in correspondence.
Then explain the popularity of PvP? Or maybe this is a completely different discussion. But there are a small fraction of players out there that want unpredictable, they want a challenge. Of course, we all want to win but in the PVP realm it's easy to learn a lesson and call that a win in lieu of an actual PvP victory.
I like the question you are asking and I think it is important for the next step in gaming to look at it. For the most part, I agree with your statement players want predictable, players want to overcome the challenge. In WoW it's gotten so bad that the "dance" is choreographed by a computer assistant that tells you where to stand, what spells to use, and when to move. I think this is a large part why PvE purists and PvP enthusiasts can't agree on what makes a good game and why we have carebears and greifers.
I think an unpredictable AI would be the death of a game unless you "tuned" it down to where there was a series of moves you could memorize (or be told) so the masses could achieve victory. Otherwise, PvP games would be the top games and not a small slice of the gaming genre.
I am not saying one play style is better than the other, nor do I care to have that particular discussion, I just think that the PvP players, in general, like that feeling of not knowing exactly what is going to happen when they jump into a situation.
I think it would be awesome to have an AI monster that would react to your party makeup. All physical Damage? The boss equips a shield, all ranged damage? The boss charges the highest damage dealer, etc. Just not walking into the same dungeon to fight the same boss the same way, imo, would be very cool.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
The problem with human beings is that they are capable of the most horrific cruelty or will inflict every type of nasty without rules. So AI is better for me as it is NOT ruled by ego or the feeling of wanting to grind people down as far as it can go. I don't trust humans not to be assholes.
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Covert Action had procedural driven missions and was released in 1990. That was the first game I remember. Skyrim also had some very basic stuff.
I just think it's not used in MMORPG because of WoW become the standard for the genre. Same reason NPC grinding/camping and Sandbox MMORPG went the way of the dodo.
I dont' realize skyrim have anything that sound like what you described. At least in terms of scale.
GW2 dynamic events, and Ryzom world probably also resemble a bit of what you describe. But your game sound like a game which is constantly changing in a much grander scale.
I dont' think the game would be easy to make. Try to make a MUD. Now try to make a MUD and implement what you described. It'll be very tedious to implement all the possible outcome.
Guild Wars 2's dynamic events are hand-crafted. Each event is hand-crafted, and then it just picks which one to run.
Anarchy Online is a much better example of procedurally generated content in an MMORPG.
I never got into Anarchy. Have tried over the years. How did those systems work? Random kill/collect quest? Thing with procedural questing is while basic to start systems can get better and deeper. But there has to be a start.
You get a quest that takes you to an instanced dungeon. There are many places in the game world that the instanced dungeon can be located, and it picks one randomly as the location of your quest. It randomly picks the theme of which type of mobs will spawn in the dungeon. There are several types of quests, from running through a dungeon to killing a boss or whatever, and it picks the type of quest randomly. It has a bunch of rooms that the dungeon could contain, and picks some of them randomly and then chains them together.
The problem with human beings is that they are capable of the most horrific cruelty or will inflict every type of nasty without rules. So AI is better for me as it is NOT ruled by ego or the feeling of wanting to grind people down as far as it can go. I don't trust humans not to be assholes.
You are wise to be wary, my friend. I enjoy a lot of different types of games, I do not enjoy ruining someone's day just because I can, however, I have learned to be like that, I enjoy PvP for a lot of the same reasons being expressed here I do not enjoy just walking in and getting an easy win. Sadly, I am a tiny minority inside a small fraction of gamers.
But, back to the point, this is why a dynamic AI would make the PvE so much more fun. Instead of: Ok, when his rage meter is full, Healer, throw your big HoTS, ranged make sure you take up the Dps, and all physical except Tank, fall Back.
It will be: Hey, we have no idea how this thing is going to react, just play your best, Good luck!
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Is there any example of "actually" game that implement procedural generated content? I can't even think of single player game that made it possible.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
Covert Action had procedural driven missions and was released in 1990. That was the first game I remember. Skyrim also had some very basic stuff.
I just think it's not used in MMORPG because of WoW become the standard for the genre. Same reason NPC grinding/camping and Sandbox MMORPG went the way of the dodo.
I dont' realize skyrim have anything that sound like what you described. At least in terms of scale.
GW2 dynamic events, and Ryzom world probably also resemble a bit of what you describe. But your game sound like a game which is constantly changing in a much grander scale.
I dont' think the game would be easy to make. Try to make a MUD. Now try to make a MUD and implement what you described. It'll be very tedious to implement all the possible outcome.
Guild Wars 2's dynamic events are hand-crafted. Each event is hand-crafted, and then it just picks which one to run.
Anarchy Online is a much better example of procedurally generated content in an MMORPG.
I never got into Anarchy. Have tried over the years. How did those systems work? Random kill/collect quest? Thing with procedural questing is while basic to start systems can get better and deeper. But there has to be a start.
You get a quest that takes you to an instanced dungeon. There are many places in the game world that the instanced dungeon can be located, and it picks one randomly as the location of your quest. It randomly picks the theme of which type of mobs will spawn in the dungeon. There are several types of quests, from running through a dungeon to killing a boss or whatever, and it picks the type of quest randomly. It has a bunch of rooms that the dungeon could contain, and picks some of them randomly and then chains them together.
Good description of AO's automated quests. However, I wouldn't consider these anything beyond a RNG and a "one from column A, one from column B" approach. Possibly a good first step towards true dynamic content generation, but all the elements (locations, quest text, reward types, etc.) are premade by the developers; the computer is just combining these elements randomly.
It may be a first step on the road to AI content creation, but it wasn't a panacea. I always felt it was more of a "RNG selected" than "AI driven" approach.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I would like to see better AI, but definitely not "perfect AI." The computer never misses because it has exact information that players don't. I have to judge how high to to shoot to count for missile droppage over distance. AI knows exactly which pixels my character is occupying and how many pixels is between us, along with height differences in pixels. But having AI that doesn't get "stuck" on obstacles, can't jump (Skyrim NPCs), can't path is awful and should be fixed by now.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Supervised procedural generated content would be a fair start, I guess.
Look at dwarf fortress for example.
Every new game start creates a new world with thousands npcs populating a many hundreds of year old world with history, battles, kingdoms etc.
Of course, for an mmorpg there should be more distinct limits to not go too crazy.
But possible? Yup.
I'd like to play on a absolutely unique created world setting, every time I choose a different server.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Most players also skip past quest dialog and just complete the action. Will it really hurt to have generic dialogue for filler quest?
Quest dialog can improve with time and more and more variables added over time. Not to mention possiblity for branching quest.
Depending on how procedural your design is you can have a procedural nemesis affect local quest. Like evil orc lord and his band of black orcs begin showing up in local quest all of a sudden. You realize there is an Orc problem somewhere that can actually be solved.
You can have flexibility with NPCs. Friendly wood elf village got wiped out due to nobody solving the orc problem. Maybe someone solves it and in time semi-hostile red dwarves move in. You can befriend them or not.
I think chalking up scripting and AI to just getting a bunch of generic quest is short sighted.
The only procedural generated content I can think of is random generated map in ARPG. Or random generated treasure map in some mmorpg.
I dont' think the problem is with the technology. It would just take lots of work to make such game possible. Not to mention even if possible, it might not work well.
Maybe one day someone would make a game engine powerful enough to make such game without too much work.
I just think it's not used in MMORPG because of WoW become the standard for the genre. Same reason NPC grinding/camping and Sandbox MMORPG went the way of the dodo.
There are also a lot of games with completely procedural maps: Minecraft, Terraria, a lot of roguelike games, etc. Some games even have procedurally generated story events (eg. Rimworld). Procedural quest generation has also been used somewhat (eg. Skyrim's radiant quests).
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
GW2 dynamic events, and Ryzom world probably also resemble a bit of what you describe. But your game sound like a game which is constantly changing in a much grander scale.
I dont' think the game would be easy to make. Try to make a MUD. Now try to make a MUD and implement what you described. It'll be very tedious to implement all the possible outcome.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I want to read this thread before I get involved. Just wanted to let you know.
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....
To make matters more interesting, sometimes you'd have to mix those ingredients.
As a very simple explanation, say you have a MOB group that has fighters and healers/spell casters.
Assuming this MOB group is evenly matched with the Player group, it doesn't matter if the MOB heals or casts spells, as it maintains the balance.
So, as MOBs take damage, the AI may choose to heal as a choice, and the more damage, the more likely to heal because of the weighted system. But since it's not definite, the MOB may "screw up" and not heal, causing a loss of numbers more quickly. The succeeding rounds have fewer attacks or heals on their side.
On the flip side, it may be the Player group that screws up.
Then again, the players may concentrate on the healers and eventually take them out of the equation.
1. It makes each battle different.
2. It allows randomness that allows for mistakes, or even tide turners to the benefit.
3. It gives players things to look for that they can prevent from happening, and affect the battle to their benefit.
So each dungeon room, depending on the tactics available and the MOB type, is a different experience each time players go there.
It starts with basic animal AI of fight or flight.
Higher INT MOBs add more choices based on INT, as well as what exactly they are (Orcs vs. Dragons). But they all have the basic fight/flight beginner AI.
Once upon a time....
You can't have smart AI together with players with a thousand HP fighting mobs with a million HP. But since when do you need to have players with a thousand HP fighting mobs with a million? Pairing that with mobs that are really dumb and focus exclusively on the heavily armored tank isn't "epic"; it's stupid.
Anarchy Online is a much better example of procedurally generated content in an MMORPG.
I like the question you are asking and I think it is important for the next step in gaming to look at it. For the most part, I agree with your statement players want predictable, players want to overcome the challenge. In WoW it's gotten so bad that the "dance" is choreographed by a computer assistant that tells you where to stand, what spells to use, and when to move. I think this is a large part why PvE purists and PvP enthusiasts can't agree on what makes a good game and why we have carebears and greifers.
I think an unpredictable AI would be the death of a game unless you "tuned" it down to where there was a series of moves you could memorize (or be told) so the masses could achieve victory. Otherwise, PvP games would be the top games and not a small slice of the gaming genre.
I am not saying one play style is better than the other, nor do I care to have that particular discussion, I just think that the PvP players, in general, like that feeling of not knowing exactly what is going to happen when they jump into a situation.
I think it would be awesome to have an AI monster that would react to your party makeup. All physical Damage? The boss equips a shield, all ranged damage? The boss charges the highest damage dealer, etc. Just not walking into the same dungeon to fight the same boss the same way, imo, would be very cool.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
But, back to the point, this is why a dynamic AI would make the PvE so much more fun. Instead of: Ok, when his rage meter is full, Healer, throw your big HoTS, ranged make sure you take up the Dps, and all physical except Tank, fall Back.
It will be: Hey, we have no idea how this thing is going to react, just play your best, Good luck!
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.