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Hardcore playstyle.

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  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,069
    Problem is that so far all I have read is neutering the hero route with drawbacks and not one thing that actually make the game style more enjoyable compared to what already exists. 
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,121
    Shaigh said:
    Problem is that so far all I have read is neutering the hero route with drawbacks and not one thing that actually make the game style more enjoyable compared to what already exists. 
    Probably because you view as being neutered.

    But one thing is push to interdependency through trade. 

    Hardcore playstyle isn't expected to be used any more than hardcore things are done in normal MMORPG.  

    I guess it's a psychological thing.  
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,242
    I would love to have a possibility of Perma-Death at the very top end of game play. 
    I don't want it to be "likely", just possible. 
    But that does mean that it has to happen once in a while. 

    That's a bitter pill to swallow though, if it happens to a player. There needs to be something cool as a result. Something significant. But NOT A REWARD. Or else players will be trying to die. A monument in an in-game cemetery/mausoleum to said Character might be part of the solution. And a special "Descendent" Character with half to 3/4 the Skill set, and inheritance to all properties owned, might help. A lot depends on the game's setup. 

    Another idea might be to allow the player to "play the tomb", sort of. To speak to other players in the vicinity, through their grave stone or vault, if they want to. Maybe even allow their Ghost to appear on nights of the full moon, or other special times. 
    Gdemami

    Once upon a time....

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member EpicPosts: 5,228
    edited January 2
    They also risk situational permanent death. So while you can be more powerful you risk losing it all. I would keep the elite heroes rarer as the best stuff has the most risk.
    The base idea is good, except the permadeath. You should come up with similar size of risks (be it skill/gear loss, xp penalty, etc.) but permadeath ain't a bright idea in an MMORPG. Not even generally, let alone as a motivator at the high end...

    Since Wizardry is gone now, you can check AoC's iteration, even if it's only a "cosmetic" permadeath, and you'll see how your's would turn out too: lots of anger and frustration, and those who survive until the level cap (without touching any dungeons or similar "more challenging" content, might I add) just quickly park their character and only log in to them in towns and safe spots.

    Sure, AoC has bugs and pvp (though nobody tries Unconquered on the pvp server), and runs on a potato with hamsters, even if your game is a perfectly ironed out flawless coding paradise, running on a dedicated server farm, you can't fully remove the technical issues (power outage, a local cable cut, ISP issues, etc.), and most players get pissed when they lose a character due to reasons they can't control.
    If it's the player's fault, it could serve as a learning experience. But if it's because of a PC crash, or a game bug, etc., and especially if they lose thousands of hours invested which will be the case with "harcore elite heroes", they most likely won't return and start over.

    (as Wizardry's quick fall presented, a lot of players are excited on the idea of permadeath, but when actually experience it first hand, they will soon leave behind an empty game...)
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,211
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 

    image

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,121
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,355
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,363
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    People say the same thing about a tiny percentage of people spend money on microtransaction.

    But when you make a reddit poll you saw half of the people spent money on microtransaction.  

    A good portion of the people probably don't go far enough in the game or are daily players.  But for the daily players who play everyday the number of people that do high end dungeon or spent money on micro transaction is much more than that.

    Here is a poll on reddit for GW2 raiding:
    https://www.strawpoll.me/11697421/r

    53% of the people say they raid and have a legendary.  9% of the people say they raid but don't have a legendary.
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,211
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    everyone does some M+ but everyone defines 'high end' differently. 
    AlBQuirky

    image

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,121
    Ungood said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    For most casual I don't think the playstyle would change.  You play to cap dable with raids, trade, dungeons or roll alt.  You don't have to be a craftsman but casuals would be the craftsman for hardcore.  



  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    less than 5% complete Mythics and get the Achievements

    Kyleran
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,355
    Ungood said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    For most casual I don't think the playstyle would change.  You play to cap dable with raids, trade, dungeons or roll alt.  You don't have to be a craftsman but casuals would be the craftsman for hardcore.  



    Why? No diss but really think about it, when I played Hard Core, I never went to some casual for a gear up, as I either did my own crafting (because, truth be told, I ended up with a lot of downtime between raids, when I played Hardcore) or went to other hardcore players, because I knew that they would be the best.

    That's the thing that people seem to miss, Hardcore players want to be best, it does not matter of that is making a sword or swinging it, Hardcore players strive to be best at that, they are the ones that will break down all the processes, maximize things, and be the best in the field.. with casuals.. just kinda sludging along in their footsteps, like they do in all other parts of the game.

    With crafting just being something they don't have to have twitch skill or deal with people screaming into a mic about "Welps, Left Side.. Even Side.. Handle it!"
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,363
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    For most casual I don't think the playstyle would change.  You play to cap dable with raids, trade, dungeons or roll alt.  You don't have to be a craftsman but casuals would be the craftsman for hardcore.  



    Why? No diss but really think about it, when I played Hard Core, I never went to some casual for a gear up, as I either did my own crafting (because, truth be told, I ended up with a lot of downtime between raids, when I played Hardcore) or went to other hardcore players, because I knew that they would be the best.

    That's the thing that people seem to miss, Hardcore players want to be best, it does not matter of that is making a sword or swinging it, Hardcore players strive to be best at that, they are the ones that will break down all the processes, maximize things, and be the best in the field.. with casuals.. just kinda sludging along in their footsteps, like they do in all other parts of the game.

    With crafting just being something they don't have to have twitch skill or deal with people screaming into a mic about "Welps, Left Side.. Even Side.. Handle it!"
    He's talking about a hypothetical game/or conceptual game where fighters aren't even allowed to have a trade skill.  Probably because to maximize fighting you need to sacrifice skill points for tradeskill.  
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,416
    AAAMEOW said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    For most casual I don't think the playstyle would change.  You play to cap dable with raids, trade, dungeons or roll alt.  You don't have to be a craftsman but casuals would be the craftsman for hardcore.  



    Why? No diss but really think about it, when I played Hard Core, I never went to some casual for a gear up, as I either did my own crafting (because, truth be told, I ended up with a lot of downtime between raids, when I played Hardcore) or went to other hardcore players, because I knew that they would be the best.

    That's the thing that people seem to miss, Hardcore players want to be best, it does not matter of that is making a sword or swinging it, Hardcore players strive to be best at that, they are the ones that will break down all the processes, maximize things, and be the best in the field.. with casuals.. just kinda sludging along in their footsteps, like they do in all other parts of the game.

    With crafting just being something they don't have to have twitch skill or deal with people screaming into a mic about "Welps, Left Side.. Even Side.. Handle it!"
    He's talking about a hypothetical game/or conceptual game where fighters aren't even allowed to have a trade skill.  Probably because to maximize fighting you need to sacrifice skill points for tradeskill.  

    Hardcore players will have alts and/or second acct for that , Hardcore players/guilds will not rely on the community to craft for them .... ever
    Ungood
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,121
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    For most casual I don't think the playstyle would change.  You play to cap dable with raids, trade, dungeons or roll alt.  You don't have to be a craftsman but casuals would be the craftsman for hardcore.  



    Why? No diss but really think about it, when I played Hard Core, I never went to some casual for a gear up, as I either did my own crafting (because, truth be told, I ended up with a lot of downtime between raids, when I played Hardcore) or went to other hardcore players, because I knew that they would be the best.

    That's the thing that people seem to miss, Hardcore players want to be best, it does not matter of that is making a sword or swinging it, Hardcore players strive to be best at that, they are the ones that will break down all the processes, maximize things, and be the best in the field.. with casuals.. just kinda sludging along in their footsteps, like they do in all other parts of the game.

    With crafting just being something they don't have to have twitch skill or deal with people screaming into a mic about "Welps, Left Side.. Even Side.. Handle it!"
    Nothing stops them from making alts and/or multiple accounts.  
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,509
    edited January 2
    AAAMEOW said:
    Most MMORPG now seem to have divided players already. The gap has narrowed with more casual means of obtaining elite gear.  This is from a themepark view.  The hardcore character are elite heroes.  They have to go to the most challenging dungeons, raids, zones to obtain the best stuff. 

    Downside is they need multiple craftsman to sustain.  They also risk situational permanent death. So while you can be more powerful you risk losing it all. I would keep the elite heroes rarer as the best stuff has the most risk.

    Of course people can and will have alts.  It's just the nature of the genre.  But if you need someone who can cleanse you of corruption, repair and craft gear, remove fatigue, make options, make food and etc it would be much more of a chore.  

    This was something I tried to come up with that kind pull MMORPG in a different path.
    But in themepark games I typically dont' need to gimp my fighting skill to take up crafting profession.  The crafting system is kept separate from fighting skill.

    Some sandbox games make you choose to gimp your fighting skill just so you can pick up crafting skill.  
    Do you do all the topline raids to get BiS?  Most players don't but they arent gimping themselves by not doing it right? Just not playing high end stuff.

    You are looking at wrong.  Regular characters aren't gimped.  The hardcore difficulty players are playing hardcore mode.  Facing more challenges and perm death exchange for more power.
    To borrow from G-Easy, "I just want to stay gimped forever,  that's some shit no one's ever said."   B)

    If top tier raid gear exists most will want access to it even if they never do high end content or need it elsewhere. 

    It's a vanity thing....look how many drive high tier sports cars or monster trucks which will never break 90 or see the offroad and mud.

    UngoodAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,509
    AAAMEOW said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    People say the same thing about a tiny percentage of people spend money on microtransaction.

    But when you make a reddit poll you saw half of the people spent money on microtransaction.  

    A good portion of the people probably don't go far enough in the game or are daily players.  But for the daily players who play everyday the number of people that do high end dungeon or spent money on micro transaction is much more than that.

    Here is a poll on reddit for GW2 raiding:
    https://www.strawpoll.me/11697421/r

    53% of the people say they raid and have a legendary.  9% of the people say they raid but don't have a legendary.
    Err, GW2 raiding really isn't "raiding", not enough pain and agony to it.

    ;)
    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UtinniUtinni Member EpicPosts: 1,916
    What do you think about a MMORPG where most players are divided into two camps of players?  

    The average Joe.  Good fighters but mostly are tradesmen which is a much easier playstyle. Can become skilled fighter but you'd never be elite.  Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    Hero route.  You can become an elite fighter but to earn the best stuff you go through grueling dungeons and risk perm death in certain instances.  You have no trade skills and need multiple types tradesmen to adventure.  

    Just a brainstorming exercise sitting here at mostly empty work place. We have this in play in a lot of ways already but it gives some balance in my opinion to those who don't wish to partake in end game stuff.
    All gaming populations are already divided like this. You already have the choice to not "partake in end game stuff." Go download SWG if you want to be a crafter.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,355
    Scorchien said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    For most casual I don't think the playstyle would change.  You play to cap dable with raids, trade, dungeons or roll alt.  You don't have to be a craftsman but casuals would be the craftsman for hardcore.  



    Why? No diss but really think about it, when I played Hard Core, I never went to some casual for a gear up, as I either did my own crafting (because, truth be told, I ended up with a lot of downtime between raids, when I played Hardcore) or went to other hardcore players, because I knew that they would be the best.

    That's the thing that people seem to miss, Hardcore players want to be best, it does not matter of that is making a sword or swinging it, Hardcore players strive to be best at that, they are the ones that will break down all the processes, maximize things, and be the best in the field.. with casuals.. just kinda sludging along in their footsteps, like they do in all other parts of the game.

    With crafting just being something they don't have to have twitch skill or deal with people screaming into a mic about "Welps, Left Side.. Even Side.. Handle it!"
    He's talking about a hypothetical game/or conceptual game where fighters aren't even allowed to have a trade skill.  Probably because to maximize fighting you need to sacrifice skill points for tradeskill.  

    Hardcore players will have alts and/or second acct for that , Hardcore players/guilds will not rely on the community to craft for them .... ever
    Shit.. we agree.
    ScorchienKyleranAlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,509
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Robokapp said:
     Can enjoy soft dungeons and etc.

    I think the gameworld needs to support this. Plant your idea in WoW and it falls flat. plant it in EVE and it's fine. 
    What percentage of players do high end dungeons in WoW?  I am sure it's a minority.

    While I don't know if Blizzard ever released numbers, I know it must be less than 10%, because Anet/ GW2 claimed it was a crowning achievement that over 10% of their population at least tried to do Raids.

    So there was that.

    The truth is, an MMO should give all it's players something to do that feels meaniful, that is fun and engaging, and allows them a sense of progress and accomplishment.

    The idea that "Casuals" want to craft, is kinda sad really, as it implies that a casuals goal in a game is to be little more than a thrall worker for the more skilled players. While I wager some casuals might enjoy that, I highly doubt enough do to for this to be a keynote to keeping that population invested into your game.

    This builds its own issues, as casuals will not build their crafting as fast as hardcore players simply because they lack the time and willingness to treat a game like a second job, so even in that venture, Hardcore players will dominate that game style by make crafting mules, because they have time to put into the game to make that happen.

    GW2 Core game has a good balance of this, where Casuals could enjoy the game at their pace, do what they wanted to do, and not feel like they had to compete against the rest of the population, since the game as far as gear and levels went was a low hard cap, the rest of the game was all about proving one's accomplishments through aesthetics.

    It was a very unique and inclusive way to do things. 

    Personally they really should have put a lot more focus into WvW as the "End Game" for GW2, as PvP and Open World PvP as it were, is really the domain where highly skilled players can test themselves against each other.

    Anets lackluster way of handling WvW, I think caused a lot of their early problems, with their hardcore players wanting something "More" and Anet had this already set up WvW system that could have provided them all the more they could have ever wanted, it could have been the next Fortnight of Gaming, but, as opposed to really putting effort into that, and making that shine, they neglected it and went to other projects, which did not in fact help them along at all.
    For most casual I don't think the playstyle would change.  You play to cap dable with raids, trade, dungeons or roll alt.  You don't have to be a craftsman but casuals would be the craftsman for hardcore.  



    Why? No diss but really think about it, when I played Hard Core, I never went to some casual for a gear up, as I either did my own crafting (because, truth be told, I ended up with a lot of downtime between raids, when I played Hardcore) or went to other hardcore players, because I knew that they would be the best.

    That's the thing that people seem to miss, Hardcore players want to be best, it does not matter of that is making a sword or swinging it, Hardcore players strive to be best at that, they are the ones that will break down all the processes, maximize things, and be the best in the field.. with casuals.. just kinda sludging along in their footsteps, like they do in all other parts of the game.

    With crafting just being something they don't have to have twitch skill or deal with people screaming into a mic about "Welps, Left Side.. Even Side.. Handle it!"
    He's talking about a hypothetical game/or conceptual game where fighters aren't even allowed to have a trade skill.  Probably because to maximize fighting you need to sacrifice skill points for tradeskill.  

    Hardcore players will have alts and/or second acct for that , Hardcore players/guilds will not rely on the community to craft for them .... ever
    Shit.. we agree.
    I can see it now, you two become BFFs forever in 2020.

    ;)
    UngoodAlBQuirkyScorchien

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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