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Goals for 2019 Part 1 - Playable game by Sep 22nd, 2019

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  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,248

    <snip>

    I wanted to pose a question to you guys, can we talk about Caspian's mystical Soulborn Engine...supposedly in development for like 20 years? Please show me one shred of proof it exists in any form.
    Soulbound Engine???  First I've heard it mentioned here.  Do they have some Elyria Commander game from the early 90s that they are expanding?  I'll leave mucking around in their forums to others.

    Another thing to look for in all the non-existant images of an actual game in operation.  I really don't care what they want to call their engine.  Anything but "The Little Engine That Could".  That may be under copyright.  And there's a strong chance that their engine can't.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Nubz_UniteNubz_Unite Member UncommonPosts: 30
    Regarding how many employee's they have working for them if your not going to argue that they are simply fabricating people for the sake of it, they do typically have a meet the dev segment in their Community journals each month. You could see how many unique people have been referenced over the course of the journals to get some idea of their minimum staff numbers
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,731
    edited November 2019
    Regarding how many employee's they have working for them if your not going to argue that they are simply fabricating people for the sake of it, they do typically have a meet the dev segment in their Community journals each month. You could see how many unique people have been referenced over the course of the journals to get some idea of their minimum staff numbers
    Good call, found a photo in a recent Community Journal 

    https://s.amsu.ng/JNqhiRAOqrYN
    tweedledumb99

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    edited November 2019
    Kyleran said:
    Regarding how many employee's they have working for them if your not going to argue that they are simply fabricating people for the sake of it, they do typically have a meet the dev segment in their Community journals each month. You could see how many unique people have been referenced over the course of the journals to get some idea of their minimum staff numbers
    Good call, found a photo in a recent Community Journal 

    https://s.amsu.ng/JNqhiRAOqrYN
    This one is probably more accurate of how their "place of business" and what they are doing with the money looks like (notice that all the bills are in 1s to make it rain).

    Kyleran
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,336
    RenGinGin said:
    One thing about CoE fans is that they have an amazing ability to forget the past.  It's almost as though Caspien wiggles his fingers and wipes their memories like a Jedi...
    RenGinGin

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,731
    edited December 2019
    One insightful thing I learned reading through some of Caspians comments on Discord yesterday regarding delays was a subtle admission they've had unanticipated staff departures which has slowed them down.
    tweedledumb99

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorrskTorrsk Member UncommonPosts: 295
    Kyleran said:
    One insightful thing I learned reading through some of Caspians comments on Discord yesterday regarding delays was a subtle admission they've had unanticipated staff departures which has slowed them down.
    He did talk about that at one point. People working insanely long hours for months. Around the same time a few different people were leaving. Almost like he never connected the dots to notice the problem. 

    I do wonder how long it does really take for them to hire new staff and get them up to speed on everything they are working on. While it would slow them down. I can't see it adding on this much time.
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,336
    Kyleran said:
    One insightful thing I learned reading through some of Caspians comments on Discord yesterday regarding delays was a subtle admission they've had unanticipated staff departures which has slowed them down.
    That tends to happen when you blame you staff for many of your problems.
    GdemamiAnOldFartDeveron

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 40,731
    Torrsk said:
    Kyleran said:
    One insightful thing I learned reading through some of Caspians comments on Discord yesterday regarding delays was a subtle admission they've had unanticipated staff departures which has slowed them down.
    He did talk about that at one point. People working insanely long hours for months. Around the same time a few different people were leaving. Almost like he never connected the dots to notice the problem. 

    I do wonder how long it does really take for them to hire new staff and get them up to speed on everything they are working on. While it would slow them down. I can't see it adding on this much time.
    Funny story, while I don't develop games I've been supporting software development almost 30 years now.

    One area of expertise I've developed via experience is a really good feel for estimating how productive a team actually is though management usually rejects my assessments in horror.

    In general most new hires to an existing, well functioning team take a good six months to begin actually contributing deliverables of substance and a full year before being able to match the average velocity of the team.

    Sure, some outliers exceed this pace, but then some never live up to their potential and even have to be let go so the two tend to cancel each other out.

    Another observation, initially most new hires actually have a negative effect on overall velocity as existing team members have to take time away from their regular duties to train up the new folks.

    I had an estimating spreadsheet I created which would slot new hires initially as negative productivity values, increasing to zero in two or three months, then moving towards positive reaching 80% by six months (a concession to mgmt, I felt it should be lower) and a 100% by the end of the year.

    Even then this average is still low, I work with a couple of developers on my current team who each can do the same amount of work as two or even three other developers on the team in the same time period.

    Perhaps SBS has nothing but senior devs like I just mentioned, but such people come at a pretty high price tag and my guess is most indies don't hit the top end of the pay and benefits scale relying more on promises of future revenue sharing to obtain talent.







    Gdemamigervaise1Mendeltweedledumb99TorrskDeveron

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Torrsk said:
    Kyleran said:
    One insightful thing I learned reading through some of Caspians comments on Discord yesterday regarding delays was a subtle admission they've had unanticipated staff departures which has slowed them down.
    He did talk about that at one point. People working insanely long hours for months. Around the same time a few different people were leaving. Almost like he never connected the dots to notice the problem. 

    I do wonder how long it does really take for them to hire new staff and get them up to speed on everything they are working on. While it would slow them down. I can't see it adding on this much time.
    A lack of funding means they will want to hire "exactly" the  right people who need zero training and become 100% productive from day 1. There are posts from MJ regarding Camelot Unchained's hunt for new staff that talk about this - MJ was talking months. 

    Couple that with having to find employees prepared to work "insanely long hours for months".

    So I can see staff hiring being "a challenge" tinged with "fear" that whoever you hire won't work out exactly on day 1.

    As to how long it would add its relative to the size of the team? If the team is 500 strong say and due to reduced funding they had to shed 50 staff that would nominally push the projected released date out by 10%. If the team was 100 strong the same 50 person reduction would push any date out 100%. 

    When team sizes are even smaller - probably the case with CoE - its also more likely that you will lose critical staff. Bigger teams are more likely to have someone to step into key roles in the  event of someone leaving. 
    KyleranTorrsk
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    @Kyleran is totally correct.

    Now if you are very selective in your hiring you can lessen the time taken for new hires to become "fully productive". It will still take time! Being more selective though means it takes longer and costs more. With no guarantee of being "exactly right."

    For at the end of the day it will still take time for new hires to get up to speed. Remember most bigger companies will have professional or at least dedicated staff to do the hiring. And for all the metrics and assessments that modern HR uses it still takes people time to get up and running. @Kyleran 's "feel" for how long it takes looks fine to me.

    Hence the "fear" that will creep into SBS's search. Under pressure to deliver. Under pressure on costs. 

    Which is not an excuse btw.
    Mendel
  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,248
    gervaise1 said:
    @Kyleran is totally correct.

    Now if you are very selective in your hiring you can lessen the time taken for new hires to become "fully productive". It will still take time! Being more selective though means it takes longer and costs more. With no guarantee of being "exactly right."

    For at the end of the day it will still take time for new hires to get up to speed. Remember most bigger companies will have professional or at least dedicated staff to do the hiring. And for all the metrics and assessments that modern HR uses it still takes people time to get up and running. @Kyleran 's "feel" for how long it takes looks fine to me.

    Hence the "fear" that will creep into SBS's search. Under pressure to deliver. Under pressure on costs. 

    Which is not an excuse btw.

    The COCOMO model was built around similar principles as those that @Kyleran used.  The ramp-up period for new hires (and associated costs) is known (and frequently ignored) by businesses at all levels.  "That other company's new hires may take 6-8 months to become productive, but ours will be productive from day 1".



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,336
    During the Kickstarter they said something along the lines that they had a team of 16 people that had been developing the game for a year.  The KS was mid 2016.  They also said they planned to release the game in 2017.  With a dream budget for all bells, whistles, testing etc... of 3-4 million.  They have now taken over double the planned time and over double the money they said they needed, yet they have not even hit Alpha yet.  Release is a long off dream at this point.

    Sure losing some folks and having to replace them was a contributing factor, but IMHO the root cause is utter incompetence when it comes to project management and a total lack of leadership.  If nobody had left the team between KS and now I firmly believe they would still be in a nebulous Pre-Alpha because the issue is at the top, not the bottom.

    Just wait until the first real players can share their “in game” experiences which will consist of performing functions that a group of CS students could have created as their Sr. Project in 1 semester. Once the first footage is leaked the real “Storm” is going to happen.  The Shitstorm.

    Gdemami

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • goldboyy45goldboyy45 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    edited December 2019
    During the Kickstarter they said something along the lines that they had a team of 16 people that had been developing the game for a year.  The KS was mid 2016.  They also said they planned to release the game in 2017.  With a dream budget for all bells, whistles, testing etc... of 3-4 million.  They have now taken over double the planned time and over double the money they said they needed, yet they have not even hit Alpha yet.  Release is a long off dream at this point.

    Sure losing some folks and having to replace them was a contributing factor, but IMHO the root cause is utter incompetence when it comes to project management and a total lack of leadership.  If nobody had left the team between KS and now I firmly believe they would still be in a nebulous Pre-Alpha because the issue is at the top, not the bottom.

    Just wait until the first real players can share their “in game” experiences which will consist of performing functions that a group of CS students could have created as their Sr. Project in 1 semester. Once the first footage is leaked the real “Storm” is going to happen.  The Shitstorm.

    Caspian is in a world of trouble like you would not believe. seldolm do game developers get a 2nd chance after screwing up as bad as Caspian did. We don't know the extent of the damage yet but i have my own thoughts on that. The fact is money is running thin and because of Caspians piss poor planning and management, most of that 7.8M dollars is all but gone, spent, wasted, w/e you want to call it. Caspian is too proud, has too much hubris and will let this project die before he allows a publisher to help him. The only path i see here is eventual bankruptcy and I would be shocked to see anything but this.


    Gdemami
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