This may come as a shocker, but the original Shadows of Angmar story arc in LOTRO really showed me what a talented team could do with the LOTR license with enough creative freedom. And they really haven't looked back. Sure some of the systems implemented in LOTRO throughout the years have been pretty hit or miss, but the story has kept it installed on every one of my PCs for 12 years.
This may come as a shocker, but the original Shadows of Angmar story arc in LOTRO really showed me what a talented team could do with the LOTR license with enough creative freedom. And they really haven't looked back. Sure some of the systems implemented in LOTRO throughout the years have been pretty hit or miss, but the story has kept it installed on every one of my PCs for 12 years.
Ok. I wasn't going to mention this, but can't help myself. Aren't they hitting it off the tee a bit, having J.R.R. Tolkien's world to work from? I'm just reminded of the saying, "when you see a turtle sitting on top of a fencepost, you know he had a little help."
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
However, I do adore a well presented story - and I tend to care more, the more fun I'm having with the actual gameplay.
As such, I really don't care HOW great a story is - if the rest of the game is pure shit.
Case in point, I think the best story presentation of all the MMOs I've played would have to be The Secret World.
It's far and away the most compelling narrative I've ever experienced in an MMO - and it was presented in an engaging way.
Sadly, the gameplay was shit - so I couldn't stand it for more than a few dozen hours. I think I finished a third of the main story before giving up on it.
But I can't enjoy 100% sandbox games either. I absolutely need a reason to exist in a world beyond the hamsterwheel of progression.
I need a reason to care about quests - and I need a reason to explore.
So, an MMO without story and without interesting things to find and engaging characters to interact with, won't keep my attention.
But, really, the MMO genre never came anywhere near the potential it has. It has been stuck in such a rut - and if you look at games like WoW, LotRO, DDO, ESO and others - they're all less than 10% of what they really should have been - if you ask me.
I've played pretty much every established MMO out there - and none of them are really all that great overall.
This may come as a shocker, but the original Shadows of Angmar story arc in LOTRO really showed me what a talented team could do with the LOTR license with enough creative freedom. And they really haven't looked back. Sure some of the systems implemented in LOTRO throughout the years have been pretty hit or miss, but the story has kept it installed on every one of my PCs for 12 years.
Ok. I wasn't going to mention this, but can't help myself. Aren't they hitting it off the tee a bit, having J.R.R. Tolkien's world to work from? I'm just reminded of the saying, "when you see a turtle sitting on top of a fencepost, you know he had a little help."
Always an interesting topic to discuss.
In my opinion, The Lord of the Rings is NOT a good book. Tolkien wasn't the best of writers, there was hardly any character progression at all throughout the 6 books, he didn't write deeply on the action so it missed out on a lot of suspense and drama.
However, he did create a very detailed world.
So LotRO having a helping hand? Kind of. They had a ton of lore to pull from which definitely helped the world feel more real, but creating a story for players within that world without conflicting with the books? I actually think that's quite challenging and I think they did a good job with it originally. It wasn't the usual heroes story, we weren't the hero! We were just minor helping hands working in the background which felt very natural.
It was only later on that they seemed to give up on that narrative and started making us big heroes.....which sucked.
Not taking the bait. This is a common internet thing. Someone takes the position that the Earth is not round, and expects me to labor away, gathering all the proof that it is. Nope. Not doing it. If you think Tolkien isn't a good writer, you just go on thinking that - on your flat Earth.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Not taking the bait. This is a common internet thing. Someone takes the position that the Earth is not round, and expects me to labor away, gathering all the proof that it is. Nope. Not doing it. If you think Tolkien isn't a good writer, you just go on thinking that - on your flat Earth.
Earth is not flat ?
" Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who Would Threaten It " MAGA
Not taking the bait. This is a common internet thing. Someone takes the position that the Earth is not round, and expects me to labor away, gathering all the proof that it is. Nope. Not doing it. If you think Tolkien isn't a good writer, you just go on thinking that - on your flat Earth.
The flat Earth thing drives me nuts..... Whats the reasoning you would think the Earth is flat ?
Is it because the people that believe that they would fall off if it were round or something like that ?.... Don't they see the sun coming up in the morning and going across the sky ? If they call someone a few hundred miles ways to the East and find out it's dark outside where it's not where they are ? Do they NOT believe every pilot that that ever flown a plane ? And best of all, do they think their on a flat disc floating in space.... But the moon and the sun are round !
I watched only one Youtube and it left me more confused by the stupid questions they were asking, it's like retarded people were making the documentary.... I'll have to watch another one.
I have to go snow blow the drive way now, if I'm in the mood I'll watch another one... I have to find the logic they have.
More games need to find passive ways to tell the story - instead of making a player sit through cut-scenes. Tell the majority of the story as the player is travelling and fighting. Stop pulling them out of the game to tell the story.
Not taking the bait. This is a common internet thing. Someone takes the position that the Earth is not round, and expects me to labor away, gathering all the proof that it is. Nope. Not doing it. If you think Tolkien isn't a good writer, you just go on thinking that - on your flat Earth.
He is a master world builder, but I'd say that someone like Howard or Martin are far better story writers. There is a difference, could give you an example if you want. A general example.
Regardless, he was always more interested in world building. Still, a bloody good writer, but there are different subcategories of a "writer" imo.
Yeh, sorry, I probably wasn't very clear.
I don't think Tolkien was a good STORY writer. He was a good writer in general, as in he could string together interesting sentences and his writing about the world was excellent. His world building was definitely immense. His language skills were incredible. Middle Earth and it's history is phenomenal. It's just the actual stories weren't written well.
Perhaps that's a product of age?
I'm 34, so obviously wasn't alive when Tolkien was first published. Were his stories, in fact, really good for the time they were written, and it's only in comparison to modern day writers that I think he was bad at stories?
This may come as a shocker, but the original Shadows of Angmar story arc in LOTRO really showed me what a talented team could do with the LOTR license with enough creative freedom. And they really haven't looked back. Sure some of the systems implemented in LOTRO throughout the years have been pretty hit or miss, but the story has kept it installed on every one of my PCs for 12 years.
Ok. I wasn't going to mention this, but can't help myself. Aren't they hitting it off the tee a bit, having J.R.R. Tolkien's world to work from? I'm just reminded of the saying, "when you see a turtle sitting on top of a fencepost, you know he had a little help."
Oh completely. But keep in mind too that Tolkien fantatics can be huge purists as well. Any changes, however slight (like fricking Balrogs having fsking wings - - sorry, lost myself there) can be met from Tolkienists as abominations. Sure, Turbine, now SSG has a fully realized world with a rich history to pull from, but it also has to create lasting, compelling content that is separate from the grand story told in the War of the Ring. So the stories they have created should still be lauded - especially since many of them feel like they could fit right alongside the War of the Ring, or the Quest for Erebor - or even the Elder Days with the downfall of Numenor or the Noldorin Exile. Just because the ball is on the tee doesn't mean it'll always be a home run. And for much of Lotro's history it has been - though I'd venture to say that since Riders of Rohan the quality has definitely dropped. cameltosis said:
This may come as a shocker, but the original Shadows of Angmar story arc in LOTRO really showed me what a talented team could do with the LOTR license with enough creative freedom. And they really haven't looked back. Sure some of the systems implemented in LOTRO throughout the years have been pretty hit or miss, but the story has kept it installed on every one of my PCs for 12 years.
Ok. I wasn't going to mention this, but can't help myself. Aren't they hitting it off the tee a bit, having J.R.R. Tolkien's world to work from? I'm just reminded of the saying, "when you see a turtle sitting on top of a fencepost, you know he had a little help."
Always an interesting topic to discuss.
In my opinion, The Lord of the Rings is NOT a good book. Tolkien wasn't the best of writers, there was hardly any character progression at all throughout the 6 books, he didn't write deeply on the action so it missed out on a lot of suspense and drama.
However, he did create a very detailed world.
So LotRO having a helping hand? Kind of. They had a ton of lore to pull from which definitely helped the world feel more real, but creating a story for players within that world without conflicting with the books? I actually think that's quite challenging and I think they did a good job with it originally. It wasn't the usual heroes story, we weren't the hero! We were just minor helping hands working in the background which felt very natural.
It was only later on that they seemed to give up on that narrative and started making us big heroes.....which sucked.
Not taking the bait. This is a common internet thing. Someone takes the position that the Earth is not round, and expects me to labor away, gathering all the proof that it is. Nope. Not doing it. If you think Tolkien isn't a good writer, you just go on thinking that - on your flat Earth.
He is a master world builder, but I'd say that someone like Howard or Martin are far better story writers. There is a difference, could give you an example if you want. A general example.
Regardless, he was always more interested in world building. Still, a bloody good writer, but there are different subcategories of a "writer" imo.
Yeh, sorry, I probably wasn't very clear.
I don't think Tolkien was a good STORY writer. He was a good writer in general, as in he could string together interesting sentences and his writing about the world was excellent. His world building was definitely immense. His language skills were incredible. Middle Earth and it's history is phenomenal. It's just the actual stories weren't written well.
Perhaps that's a product of age?
I'm 34, so obviously wasn't alive when Tolkien was first published. Were his stories, in fact, really good for the time they were written, and it's only in comparison to modern day writers that I think he was bad at stories?
Part of it is probably his language. It's a bit dry and I think younger readers are probably not used to it. Or probably have read so much contemporary work that it no longer works for them.
And I think this could work for older people as well. I remember that I wanted to read Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen (so even older, obviously) in order to get a feel for the language for a project I'm working on.
I got past the first chapter and realized that somehow something inside me changed as I found the language wasn't working for me anymore.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Not taking the bait. This is a common internet thing. Someone takes the position that the Earth is not round, and expects me to labor away, gathering all the proof that it is. Nope. Not doing it. If you think Tolkien isn't a good writer, you just go on thinking that - on your flat Earth.
He is a master world builder, but I'd say that someone like Howard or Martin are far better story writers. There is a difference, could give you an example if you want. A general example.
Regardless, he was always more interested in world building. Still, a bloody good writer, but there are different subcategories of a "writer" imo.
Yeh, sorry, I probably wasn't very clear.
I don't think Tolkien was a good STORY writer. He was a good writer in general, as in he could string together interesting sentences and his writing about the world was excellent. His world building was definitely immense. His language skills were incredible. Middle Earth and it's history is phenomenal. It's just the actual stories weren't written well.
Perhaps that's a product of age?
I'm 34, so obviously wasn't alive when Tolkien was first published. Were his stories, in fact, really good for the time they were written, and it's only in comparison to modern day writers that I think he was bad at stories?
Your problem with it seems to be based on expectations of game like Character development and flowery descriptions of bloody battles. ??
Those books were about personal character and strength in the face of ultimate evil, the terror it brings, and the courage and sacrifice demanded for victory.
I agree that the stories in MMOs are flat out awful, which is why I probably lean more towards the games that have little or no story like Everquest used to have. THe worst are games where you do nothing but story and basically just go thru the motions of that story.
Not taking the bait. This is a common internet thing. Someone takes the position that the Earth is not round, and expects me to labor away, gathering all the proof that it is. Nope. Not doing it. If you think Tolkien isn't a good writer, you just go on thinking that - on your flat Earth.
He is a master world builder, but I'd say that someone like Howard or Martin are far better story writers. There is a difference, could give you an example if you want. A general example.
Regardless, he was always more interested in world building. Still, a bloody good writer, but there are different subcategories of a "writer" imo.
Yeh, sorry, I probably wasn't very clear.
I don't think Tolkien was a good STORY writer. He was a good writer in general, as in he could string together interesting sentences and his writing about the world was excellent. His world building was definitely immense. His language skills were incredible. Middle Earth and it's history is phenomenal. It's just the actual stories weren't written well.
Perhaps that's a product of age?
I'm 34, so obviously wasn't alive when Tolkien was first published. Were his stories, in fact, really good for the time they were written, and it's only in comparison to modern day writers that I think he was bad at stories?
Part of it is probably his language. It's a bit dry and I think younger readers are probably not used to it. Or probably have read so much contemporary work that it no longer works for them.
And I think this could work for older people as well. I remember that I wanted to read Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen (so even older, obviously) in order to get a feel for the language for a project I'm working on.
I got past the first chapter and realized that somehow something inside me changed as I found the language wasn't working for me anymore.
I totally get the language argument too. It took me 7 tries to get past the Ainulindale in The Silmarillion. But once I got over that barrier it opened up so much. Some of my favorite literary passages of all time come from The Sil and Return of the King.
I didn't take like the books either. I like to read but there is such a thing as too much description. Half a page to describe s leaf falling is just to much.
And some parts didn't really flow. Tom bombadil for one. Yes I get that he is important for the world but he didn't really fit the story.
That is one story where I thought the movies were better.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It depends on the type of game it is. Generally the faster the pace the less time I want to spend on NPC dialogue, or lore for that matter.
One of the things that annoys me the most is repetitive NPC dialogue, whether spoken or in text. For example, there are many instances of NPC interaction in GW2 meant to make the world feel more alive I suspect, but if one happens to hang around a spot for a bit the continuous looping of that interaction does very much the opposite, at least for me.
My preference would be they had not bothered with it.
Comments
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I'm also more of a gameplay first guy.
However, I do adore a well presented story - and I tend to care more, the more fun I'm having with the actual gameplay.
As such, I really don't care HOW great a story is - if the rest of the game is pure shit.
Case in point, I think the best story presentation of all the MMOs I've played would have to be The Secret World.
It's far and away the most compelling narrative I've ever experienced in an MMO - and it was presented in an engaging way.
Sadly, the gameplay was shit - so I couldn't stand it for more than a few dozen hours. I think I finished a third of the main story before giving up on it.
But I can't enjoy 100% sandbox games either. I absolutely need a reason to exist in a world beyond the hamsterwheel of progression.
I need a reason to care about quests - and I need a reason to explore.
So, an MMO without story and without interesting things to find and engaging characters to interact with, won't keep my attention.
But, really, the MMO genre never came anywhere near the potential it has. It has been stuck in such a rut - and if you look at games like WoW, LotRO, DDO, ESO and others - they're all less than 10% of what they really should have been - if you ask me.
I've played pretty much every established MMO out there - and none of them are really all that great overall.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
MAGA
Is it because the people that believe that they would fall off if it were round or something like that ?.... Don't they see the sun coming up in the morning and going across the sky ? If they call someone a few hundred miles ways to the East and find out it's dark outside where it's not where they are ? Do they NOT believe every pilot that that ever flown a plane ? And best of all, do they think their on a flat disc floating in space.... But the moon and the sun are round !
I watched only one Youtube and it left me more confused by the stupid questions they were asking, it's like retarded people were making the documentary.... I'll have to watch another one.
I have to go snow blow the drive way now, if I'm in the mood I'll watch another one... I have to find the logic they have.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
And I think this could work for older people as well. I remember that I wanted to read Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen (so even older, obviously) in order to get a feel for the language for a project I'm working on.
I got past the first chapter and realized that somehow something inside me changed as I found the language wasn't working for me anymore.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Those books were about personal character and strength in the face of ultimate evil, the terror it brings, and the courage and sacrifice demanded for victory.
Once upon a time....
And some parts didn't really flow. Tom bombadil for one. Yes I get that he is important for the world but he didn't really fit the story.
That is one story where I thought the movies were better.