Most here don't know how to analyze anything

delete5230 · December 2019

In order to do a comparison you need an equal playing field of both items:

-When something no longer exist and when it did, it was in it’s MOST BASIC FORM, how can this be compared to something newer in an age where the other comparison item can be refined with modern tools.

-both items need to be compared in "basic" form and/or "newer" form.

During First Generation times:

-Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

-Poor hardware, software and even less than 56K modems. Windows 95 !

-Wide range of people with poor > good computers. Good was still crap !

-Load with floppy disc and crud optical media programming, then expected to download patches to bring people together. Transferring data was a nightmare for both sides.

Yet people here want to compare and analyze something from 1999 to something from 2019

Last I'll leave you with this,

Polls: Where are they? How can I vote? Where are they? Have you ever voted? Who gets to vote? What are the parameters? Are they skewed? Are they to benefit one side? ......This makes polls 100 % inaccurate.... Worthless other than with an agenda that REALLY WORKS.

Because of the above a POLL CANT EXIST unless you ask the subjects to "visualize" a modern first generation complete with refinement. We all know the major population can't visualize to make parameters equal.

Wizardry · December 2019

Well guess what.....

You know by now my fave mmorpg....FFXI.

So happens there has been ideas to learn from,copy,tweak,borrow what ever and a long time before these mmorpg's came out.

You see FFXI was based off of FF3/5 a game 10 years prior to the release of FFXI.It utilized the multiclass system,had amazing class designs and combat utilized choices on types of weapons and classes.
I to this day still love playing FF3/5 and feel that was a great rpg design to take ideas from as did FFXI.

Then of course it takes a great lead with a vision to think of ideas surrounding the class design and make those work in a group and have the mobs challenge those groups.

FFXI however went one step further with depth,an area most mmorpg's do NOT do because they are designed to eliminate every step before the next,get that NEXT best gear.A design that takes you moves you sideways,gives you other options for content is a much better design than a linear design.

Another VERY important factor also missed to this day is immersion and keeping your old zones active.This is done by utilizing the multiclass/sub job system.This way players/groups need to keep coming back to old zones to level up their other classes so that their character can be more well rounded and have a lot more options.
Keeping old zones active also allow new players to feel comfortable and have grouping options several years after release.Most all Wowish type designs are ghost towns except for the end game area and then of course instances that remove all players from the world,again a BAD DESIGN for a mmo.

delete5230 · December 2019

Wizardry said:

Well guess what.....

You know by now my fave mmorpg....FFXI.

So happens there has been ideas to learn from,copy,tweak,borrow what ever and a long time before these mmorpg's came out.

You see FFXI was based off of FF3/5 a game 10 years prior to the release of FFXI.It utilized the multiclass system,had amazing class designs and combat utilized choices on types of weapons and classes.
I to this day still love playing FF3/5 and feel that was a great rpg design to take ideas from as did FFXI.

Then of course it takes a great lead with a vision to think of ideas surrounding the class design and make those work in a group and have the mobs challenge those groups.

FFXI however went one step further with depth,an area most mmorpg's do NOT do because they are designed to eliminate every step before the next,get that NEXT best gear.A design that takes you moves you sideways,gives you other options for content is a much better design than a linear design.

Another VERY important factor also missed to this day is immersion and keeping your old zones active.This is done by utilizing the multiclass/sub job system.This way players/groups need to keep coming back to old zones to level up their other classes so that their character can be more well rounded and have a lot more options.
Keeping old zones active also allow new players to feel comfortable and have grouping options several years after release.Most all Wowish type designs are ghost towns except for the end game area and then of course instances that remove all players from the world,again a BAD DESIGN for a mmo.

Obviously You know FFXI better than I. Made in 2002 it seems to me a game ahead of it's time. I came on board a year into World of Warcraft, after a year or so I was open to branch out to see what else is out their.

A guy at my job would tell me all about FF11 and I wanted to play but couldn't quite get it working for PC the way it ran and couldn't map the keys, I was newer to computers and spent just two hours and gave up, never to try again..... That's not to say it wasn't a great game, I just gave up early in trying. Not user friendly at all.

I say it was ahead of its time, because I've seen a lot of Second Generation in this game too with my little understanding.

Is this considered a First gen game ?...... Even so, with all the great things you spoke of, ITS OLD AND DATED..... It wouldn't be a fair comparison to modern technology.

The advantage 16 year old (no, all 16 year olds) would start a game like this and say:
"are you kidding me, this is ancient"

Palebane · December 2019

You can compare old sports stats to new ones. Records get broken even though players play more games per season and with different rules.

Cryomatrix · December 2019

Ehh, ironic title from Delete.

You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter.

Kyleran · December 2019

Cryomatrix said:

Ehh, ironic title from Delete.

You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter.

Agreed, my Dad's 1973 Pontiac Lemans was hands down superior to the most modern sports car today.

It had a bench seat .... a joy younger folks missed out on but there was nothing like drive in movies with one's girlfriend in a car with such.

Amathe · December 2019

Kyleran said:

Cryomatrix said:

Ehh, ironic title from Delete.

You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter.

Agreed, my Dad's 1973 Pontiac Lemans was hands down superior to the most modern sports car today.

It had a bench seat .... a joy younger folks missed out on but there was nothing like drive in movies with one's girlfriend in a car with such.

My mom had one. It was awesome. I drove it in high school.

The 1977 version was a chase car in Smoky and the Bandit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olktwqdOFgc

Oh and P.S. I drove my Mom's car until I got my own - A Pontiac Grand Ville. What a giant it was. You know who else drove one? Jimmy Hoffa.

olepi · December 2019

In 1980, I was a manager at Motorola and used to buy computer systems. We can do direct comparisons to my current home PC, which is over 6 years old.

1980 disk: 300 mb for $15,000, size of a washing machine

2019 disk: 3 Tb for $300, fits in your hand

1980 memory: 1/2 Mb for $5,000

2019 memory: 16gb for $200

There is no comparison for the CPU and graphics, you wouldn't be able to buy anything in 1980 that is comparable.

So just on disk and memory alone:

- 3x300mb disks makes 1Gb, for $45,000. It would take NINE THOUSAND washing machine sized disks to equal my home PC's disk, and it would cost $135 MILLION in 1980 dollars.

- 1/2 mb memory at $5,000 would require 32,000 memory cards to equal 16Gb, for a total of $160 MILLION in 1980 dollars.

My home PC would cost at least $300 MILLION in 1980 dollars, and require a large building.

Sovrath · December 2019

Kyleran said:

Cryomatrix said:

Ehh, ironic title from Delete.

You need to compare things allowing for nuances to influence the parameters. You try to account for the differences in ways that get to the heart of the matter.

Agreed, my Dad's 1973 Pontiac Lemans was hands down superior to the most modern sports car today.

It had a bench seat .... a joy younger folks missed out on but there was nothing like drive in movies with one's girlfriend in a car with such.

My memory of a Bench seat was my mother taking a sharp turn and my brother and I sliding and hitting the side of the car ... because that was also the days where seat belts were optional!

Good times ...

Amathe · December 2019

And of course we all know how to analyze. You just make everything anal, no? That seems to be a lot of what we do here anyway.

delete5230 · December 2019

Ha....You just said anal ….. we all know that has two meanings

olepi · December 2019

Another direct comparison is in semiconductor design. In 1980 at Motorola, we had just released the 68,000 chip, which had one layer of metal, used 5 micron gates, and had about 60,000 devices. It ran at 8mhz.

Today, I work in the latest technologies. So we now design chips with billions of transistors, that run at 5+ Ghz, and have 15 layers of metal. Gate lengths are 7nm and getting smaller.

We have literally put over a thousand times more devices, which run at about 1,000 times faster, on a chip with 15 layers of metal.

Kyleran · December 2019

delete5230 said:

During First Generation times:

-Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

You would be surprised how many ideas were "borrowed" by first gen MMORPG developers starting with Tolken, (A)D&D, NeverWinter Nights (1991), Meridian59 (1996), early MUDs (i.e. MUD1, 1987) and the like.

In fact check out Dungeons / Islands of Kesmai, first created in 1980, eventually released as on CompuServe in 1985, AOL in 1996 as Legends of Kesmai it used many of the same D&D mechanics including questing which were later incorporated into games such as EQ and WOW.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_Kesmai

Here's a fun link of the 9 oldest MMOs, the list might surprise you.

http://www.oldest.org/entertainment/mmo-games/

I consider Raph Koster as one of the best authorities on the origin (see what I did there?) of virtual worlds, online or otherwise and his web blog covers MUD history in great depth.

https://www.raphkoster.com/games/the-online-world-timeline/

Kyleran · December 2019

Torval said:

Kyleran said:

delete5230 said:

During First Generation times:

-Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

You would be surprised how many ideas were "borrowed" by first gen MMORPG developers starting with Tolken, (A)D&D, NeverWinter Nights (1991), Meridian59 (1996), early MUDs (i.e. MUD1, 1987) and the like.

In fact check out Dungeons / Islands of Kesmai, first created in 1980, eventually released as on CompuServe in 1985, AOL in 1996 as Legends of Kesmai it used many of the same D&D mechanics including questing which were later incorporated into games such as EQ and WOW.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_of_Kesmai

Here's a fun link of the 9 oldest MMOs, the list might surprise you.

http://www.oldest.org/entertainment/mmo-games/

I consider Raph Koster as one of the best authorities on the origin (see what I did there?) of virtual worlds, online or otherwise and his web blog covers MUD history in great depth.

https://www.raphkoster.com/games/the-online-world-timeline/

Lineage 1 always gets ripped off lol. It should have been on that list. It released the same year as Nexus did in the US and is arguably more successful than any of those other MMOs by every measurable metric. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineage_(video_game)

While I agree, L1's success was largely confined to S Korea. IMO L2 was much more successful in introducing the IP elsewhere.

agentsi1511 · December 2019

What the flying fuck is this dude ranting about?

He's complaining that people compare/analyze things of different generations, but then in the same breath says "hey, you can't do that". Is this dude legit fucking crazy or what?

You can typically only compare/analyze things of specific genres, regardless of the time frame. Sports are an excellent example of this. The 100m in sprinting world record was 12.42 over 100 years ago, today, its 9.59. Same exact thing. If we "analyze" this, what is the difference between the two people? It's a list a mile long. Health, food, exercise, genetics, physical dimensions, etc, etc.

Back to the main topic. What you're fucking blabbing about, is 100% bullshit that doesn't need to be analyzed. It's not proper grammar to start, you repeat yourself multiple times. It's barely a coherent statement. It isn't clear what you're even trying to say. This MMO can't be compared to this other MMO, because of time? or CPU specs? Like what? lol, A Good game transcends time. Graphics are an afterthought for most folks.

As one of the other posters mentioned, I also love FFXI, why? Because it forced social interactions. Hell, I still play EQ on EMU servers for the same reason. Great gameplay, decent graphics, amazing social structure. Most of these things ARE NOT found in modern MMOs. So if we're analyzing things, why did MMOs take a step back? Simple. The younger generation, less time, ADD, can't focus, etc, etc. The old MMO gameplay is far too hard/time-consuming for them to adapt to and those games are slowly dying out.

PS. Fucking proofread your posts before you go on a rant where you're trying to insult people. Dipshit.

Cryomatrix · December 2019

agentsi1511 said:

What the flying fuck is this dude ranting about?

He's complaining that people compare/analyze things of different generations, but then in the same breath says "hey, you can't do that". Is this dude legit fucking crazy or what?

You can typically only compare/analyze things of specific genres, regardless of the time frame. Sports are an excellent example of this. The 100m in sprinting world record was 12.42 over 100 years ago, today, its 9.59. Same exact thing. If we "analyze" this, what is the difference between the two people? It's a list a mile long. Health, food, exercise, genetics, physical dimensions, etc, etc.

Back to the main topic. What you're fucking blabbing about, is 100% bullshit that doesn't need to be analyzed. It's not proper grammar to start, you repeat yourself multiple times. It's barely a coherent statement. It isn't clear what you're even trying to say. This MMO can't be compared to this other MMO, because of time? or CPU specs? Like what? lol, A Good game transcends time. Graphics are an afterthought for most folks.

As one of the other posters mentioned, I also love FFXI, why? Because it forced social interactions. Hell, I still play EQ on EMU servers for the same reason. Great gameplay, decent graphics, amazing social structure. Most of these things ARE NOT found in modern MMOs. So if we're analyzing things, why did MMOs take a step back? Simple. The younger generation, less time, ADD, can't focus, etc, etc. The old MMO gameplay is far too hard/time-consuming for them to adapt to and those games are slowly dying out.

PS. Fucking proofread your posts before you go on a rant where you're trying to insult people. Dipshit.

Look at OP post history.

AlBQuirky · December 2019

History will repeat itself if forgotten. It will anyway, but that's life

Comparison is a basic, hard-wired aspect of humanity. We "compare" everything in our lives. "Keeping up with the Jones'" is not just some quaint saying, it is a truism.

When we have an agenda, usually it's the comparisons that suffer

MMOExposed · December 2019

I want a PvE MMO with Faction only PvP, and no Player Levels, and dedicated classes with unique class mechanics, and some kind of instanced housing.

Never going to happen

Wizardry · December 2019

Yes FFXI was a first gen but as i said it borrowed ideas from FF3/5 as well Dragon Quest.
it might be dated but imo with the proper tweaks still looks as good as for example Wow and easily better than EQ1.
EQ2 was the first game that imo really looked good.Thing is with FFXi and most all games the actual character model is VERY low poly however that one aspect does not an entire game make.
Gear in FFXi looks great,some texture/art work looks great.

I doubt many even realize that FFXi also has pvp and imo is done quite well and done in the open world although within a certain range/area.it is just that nobody wanted to pvp,it is suppose to be about the GROUP/player/online experience not about pvp owning someone.

yes i heard the many complaints about getting FFXi to work,the terrible playonline system,account setup and the controller.Yes Playoneline was bad,accounbt setup was bad but the controls were imo the best ever.I setup the config to use my KB keypad,everything i needed was right there.Do i wish there was a better free form mouse use,YES ,it is the one flaw for controlling the character the game had.

As to the last posters comments...
Yes i hear you,Atlas is the closest i have come to.Pvp is about the faction your a part of,the guild or whatever you want to call it,Housing is whatever you build,NOT instance,right out in the open world.The world is gorgeous,the creatures look and act amazing,pets galore,build a large army of pets.The flaw,a terrible developer that doesn't know what it is doing,too large a push for pvp.Positive,play on private servers or just mess around on your own server.Atlas was imo made by very few,the same template has been used over and over,Citadel/Ark/Wild West/Atlas.If there was a large team and did the same ideas,an AMAZING game could be made,the best there ever is/was.

Wizardry · December 2019

Will we ever see a cross between FFXI/Atlas all put into one game,i highly doubt it because the mindset behind both builds was by people with entirely DIFFERENT mindsets.FFXI was made for grouping/co operation,Atlas was made to pvp and brag.
However i like BOTH those games,i am sure there are other people that feel the same and could make the entire package work together as one.

Sadly there is nothing on the horizon that even smells like a great overall mmorpg design,so i'll likely be dead before i get to see that one amazing mmorpg design.

The best i can hope for is FFXI mobile,i believe it will be similar to FFXI but with some improvements,including graphics improvements.I would never play a mobile game so i would be looking for an EMU to play it,Bluestacks or whatever it's called.it is very likely that Nexon will ruin the entire experience with a ridiculous cash shop but we will see in about 2 years.

BTW...There is more time being put into making FFXI mobile than most every mmorpg on the market,aside from the two FF online games which both took about 7 years.FFXI mobile will be around 6 or 7 years by time it comes out.There is good reason i detest most mmorpg's,they looked like they are thrown together too quickly and with little thought.

Hawkaya399 · December 2019

agentsi1511 said:

(skip)

As one of the other posters mentioned, I also love FFXI, why? Because it forced social interactions. Hell, I still play EQ on EMU servers for the same reason. Great gameplay, decent graphics, amazing social structure. Most of these things ARE NOT found in modern MMOs. So if we're analyzing things, why did MMOs take a step back? Simple. The younger generation, less time, ADD, can't focus, etc, etc. The old MMO gameplay is far too hard/time-consuming for them to adapt to and those games are slowly dying out.

(skip)

I (skipped) the parts I'm not responding to.

The reason MMORPG's are more single player now is because they were growing the MMORPG population. They did this by making it more broad: more solo-oriented and easier to accomplish things. This opened them up to a larger audience. However, they eventually realized they can't grow it more without transforming it into a single player game and bastardizing the term MMORPG. That's why Blizzard didn't make WoW 2. Because why do it if they weren't going to grow it even more? Plus they were looking at Everquest 2 and seeing how Everquest 1 still has a hefty population. Why split their population--didn't seem profitable enough. The MMORPG population has hit a softcap. Now it's waiting to make its next move.

Blizzard did make Hearthstone, Diablo 3 and Overwatch. It's not like they've done nothing. Hearthstone has many millions of players.

Personally I think Blizzard is passsed its prime. The next big MMORPG will probably come from soemoen else, or maybe the "next big hit" may be relative to its audience.

What're players wnating? What do they complain about? What will make htem drop their favorite MMORPGs without a single regret? And what will do this whilst also enticing players from other subgenres, like Fortnite/PUBG, Minecraft and League of Legends? Whilst also not bastardizing the term MMORPG?

KnightFalz · December 2019

delete5230 said:

In order to do a comparison you need an equal playing field of both items:

-When something no longer exist and when it did, it was in it’s MOST BASIC FORM, how can this be compared to something newer in an age where the other comparison item can be refined with modern tools.

-both items need to be compared in "basic" form and/or "newer" form.

During First Generation times:

-Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

-Poor hardware, software and even less than 56K modems. Windows 95 !

-Wide range of people with poor > good computers. Good was still crap !

-Load with floppy disc and crud optical media programming, then expected to download patches to bring people together. Transferring data was a nightmare for both sides.

Yet people here want to compare and analyze something from 1999 to something from 2019

Last I'll leave you with this,
Polls: Where are they? How can I vote? Where are they? Have you ever voted? Who gets to vote? What are the parameters? Are they skewed? Are they to benefit one side? ......This makes polls 100 % inaccurate.... Worthless other than with an agenda that REALLY WORKS.
Because of the above a POLL CANT EXIST unless you ask the subjects to "visualize" a modern first generation complete with refinement. We all know the major population can't visualize to make parameters equal.

There are no level playing fields outside the theoretical. One can compare in any manner desired, so long as the basis for it is defined in discussions with others.

Nothing prevents comparison and analysis over time. It is common practice, from the colloquial often done here to the precise routinely done when considering long-term investment.

Opinion polls have always been worthless outside of entertainment value. They need nothing other than somebody making one. Their results have and will always be uncertain regardless how much and well any of the respondents visualize.

delete5230 · December 2019

KnightFalz said:

delete5230 said:

In order to do a comparison you need an equal playing field of both items:

-When something no longer exist and when it did, it was in it’s MOST BASIC FORM, how can this be compared to something newer in an age where the other comparison item can be refined with modern tools.

-both items need to be compared in "basic" form and/or "newer" form.

During First Generation times:

-Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

-Poor hardware, software and even less than 56K modems. Windows 95 !

-Wide range of people with poor > good computers. Good was still crap !

-Load with floppy disc and crud optical media programming, then expected to download patches to bring people together. Transferring data was a nightmare for both sides.

Yet people here want to compare and analyze something from 1999 to something from 2019

Last I'll leave you with this,
Polls: Where are they? How can I vote? Where are they? Have you ever voted? Who gets to vote? What are the parameters? Are they skewed? Are they to benefit one side? ......This makes polls 100 % inaccurate.... Worthless other than with an agenda that REALLY WORKS.
Because of the above a POLL CANT EXIST unless you ask the subjects to "visualize" a modern first generation complete with refinement. We all know the major population can't visualize to make parameters equal.

There are no level playing fields outside the theoretical. One can compare in any manner desired, so long as the basis for it is defined in discussions with others.

Nothing prevents comparison and analysis over time. It is common practice, from the colloquial often done here to the precise routinely done when considering long-term investment.

Opinion polls have always been worthless outside of entertainment value. They need nothing other than somebody making one. Their results have and will always be uncertain regardless how much and well any of the respondents visualize.

-You can't compare a 1999 Chevy pickup truck to a 2019 Honda SUV.
The year and classification are off.

-You can't compare Everquest 1 (1999) to Black Desert Online (2016).
The year and classification are off.

Their are no level playing fields.... It can't be done.

Opinion polls:
-First and most important...Who gets to vote and were are these polls so the public can vote?

-Is their an agenda behind them... Are they skewed to make one side look better?

As as per above no level playing field to run the poll... It can't be done, unless you ask the audience to reflect back to 1999 and use their "imagination of a modern version". That's if their is anyone in the audience from 1999 and old school...... so no, it can't be done at all.

AlBQuirky · December 2019

delete5230 said:

KnightFalz said:

delete5230 said:

In order to do a comparison you need an equal playing field of both items:

-When something no longer exist and when it did, it was in it’s MOST BASIC FORM, how can this be compared to something newer in an age where the other comparison item can be refined with modern tools.

-both items need to be compared in "basic" form and/or "newer" form.

During First Generation times:

-Design ideas were in its infancy, no one was around to give ideas, nothing to compare or even steal from. Everything was simply a shot in the dark.

-Poor hardware, software and even less than 56K modems. Windows 95 !

-Wide range of people with poor > good computers. Good was still crap !

-Load with floppy disc and crud optical media programming, then expected to download patches to bring people together. Transferring data was a nightmare for both sides.

Yet people here want to compare and analyze something from 1999 to something from 2019

Last I'll leave you with this,
Polls: Where are they? How can I vote? Where are they? Have you ever voted? Who gets to vote? What are the parameters? Are they skewed? Are they to benefit one side? ......This makes polls 100 % inaccurate.... Worthless other than with an agenda that REALLY WORKS.
Because of the above a POLL CANT EXIST unless you ask the subjects to "visualize" a modern first generation complete with refinement. We all know the major population can't visualize to make parameters equal.

There are no level playing fields outside the theoretical. One can compare in any manner desired, so long as the basis for it is defined in discussions with others.

Nothing prevents comparison and analysis over time. It is common practice, from the colloquial often done here to the precise routinely done when considering long-term investment.

Opinion polls have always been worthless outside of entertainment value. They need nothing other than somebody making one. Their results have and will always be uncertain regardless how much and well any of the respondents visualize.

-You can't compare a 1999 Chevy pickup truck to a 2019 Honda SUV.
The year and classification are off.

-You can't compare Everquest 1 (1999) to Black Desert Online (2016).
The year and classification are off.

Their are no level playing fields.... It can't be done.

Opinion polls:
-First and most important...Who gets to vote and were are these polls so the public can vote?

-Is their an agenda behind them... Are they skewed to make one side look better?

As as per above no level playing field to run the poll... It can't be done, unless you ask the audience to reflect back to 1999 and use their "imagination of a modern version". That's if their is anyone in the audience from 1999 and old school...... so no, it can't be done at all.

Anyone can compare anything they like. If you think something is better than something else, you just compared

- A 1999 Chevy pickup truck and a 2019 Honda SUV are both vehicles, used mainly to transport a person from point A to point B. There is a lot to compare.

- EverQuest 1 and Black Desert online are video games. There is a lot to compare there.

Opinion Polls are opinions. Worthless.

AAAMEOW · December 2019

I'd like an in depth analysis why runescape is still very popular while other old school mmorpg can't seem to retain its player and gain new one.

btdt · December 2019

You apparently never took Elementary Symbolic Logic in college. You're argument was false before you even wrote it.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Most here don't know how to analyze anything

Comments

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV