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Population control, it's a messy problem to solve.

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,322
    edited October 2019
    I must admit I am not sure if Delete wants the game to stay as it is which to him seems to have slower combat or he wants the combat to speed up?

    It is a tricky balance, the direction MMOs have gone in over the past couple of decades will exert an inevitable pull to faster combat. The calls you get for combat systems that do not use tab targeting or the trinity have only ever resulted in faster, less strategic gameplay. I am all for trying out something apart from the same old tab targeting, but if it just takes on elements of a mindless zerg developers are just pandering to the easy mode crowd.

    So I am quite happy where Pantheon seems to be on this, mind you, you need to play a game to sure you know how fast the combat feels, not just watch videos.

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Scot said:
    I must admit I am not sure if Delete wants the game to stay as it is which to him seems to have slower combat or he wants the combat to speed up?

    It is a tricky balance, the direction MMOs have gone in over the past couple of decades will exert an inevitable pull to faster combat. The calls you get for combat systems that do not use tab targeting or the trinity have only ever resulted in faster, less strategic gameplay. I am all for trying out something apart from the same old tab targeting, but if it just takes on elements of a mindless zerg developers are just pandering to the easy mode crowd.

    So I am quite happy where Pantheon seems to be on this, mind you, you need to play a game to sure you know how fast the combat feels, not just watch videos.
    Good question since I never stated my feeling on speed of combat.

    My view:
    I really try and look at the bigger picture for all players.  But in this case I would GUESS their one in the same. 


    Take down time for mobs Standard trash mobs are too slow.... It takes a long time to move 20 feet across the environment, or 45 minuets to move your group a quarter of a mile. This can be viewed as how can a group get anything done ?

    People often get frustrated when people quit.....But it becomes justified when the content is too slow. In this case way too slow.

    I for one love to spend an afternoon in a dungeon.  But I also have to be prepared in doing so.  I'll not attempt such a "wanted time sink" if time doesn't permit. 

    Subconsciously I'll ask myself do I have 1 hour or 3 every time I log on....... I'm sure this would be a popular assessment of everyone. 

    Unless this is a LOBBY Game where you simply don't log in unless you have 3 hours it will not take very well with the overall population.   


    The good news:
    I would guess the videos are temporary demonstrations to depict balance and class design.  At least I hope..... If not will ALL have to quit our jobs :)
    Scot
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    DMKano said:
    DMKano said:
    bng28 said:
    I would go as far as to say most MMO combat is dull and boring to watch.  Take a mid level instance run in WoW, lets say RFD or RFK and you just watch someone else do it.  Fuckin boring.  Different story when youre playing.  


    Its pretty boring when you play too - after a while its just /ZZZzzzz
    Can I please ask.... what do you like?... you slam everything EVERYONE SAYS. Never ever a good word about anything at all.

    A lot of people like a technical combat system instead of fun styles. Even I know that and i'm considered close minded.



    I understand theirs a lot of resentment for me, but come on, nothing good ever.

    Vanilla DAoC combat was pretty decent.

    Pre-nerf alpha melee Age of Conan combat was my favorite with animation cancelling first time I ever felt that actual skill mattered in melee combat

    Vanilla EQ1 is my favorite mmorpg of all time but the combat is super boring at end game - I played it for 7 years - still love the game but no denying how boring the combat is

    Pantheon from all the videos released has very much the same winter molasses pace of combat that EQ1 had.

    Vanguard had decent group combat- as you could do some creative stuff with AoEs and movement and just kill stuff at 10x speed with the right group who wasn't afraid to experiment. 




    Thanks so much, I appreciate this,
    I didn't mean to come across so bold, its just seemed your doing a lot of one liners, and strike and leave post.  Coupled with a superiority complex. 

    It's nice to see the human side of you like this one.    
  • JonzunJonzun Newbie CommonPosts: 3
    Initial release is going to have an overpopulation problem regardless. Instead of having them try to avoid the unavoidable, I'd rather see the game designed for a year or two down the road when new players are trickling in... and developing mechanisms to incorporate the new players quickly into the game community.
    Kyleran
  • xD_GamingxD_Gaming Member EpicPosts: 2,672
    edited October 2019
    For pantheon ? Don't think that is an issue since they havene't been fanning any hype. Think anything over 5000 players is a win . With a 15 month fee, that is 75,000 a month in revenue. This is the sweet spot for a small team, like this. If they can't figure out how live off 75,000 a month  then their egos are larger then we thought. 
    There is a multiverse inside our minds which millions live.
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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 564
    edited November 2019
    bng28 said:
    They arent ignoring these things.  They have acknowledged them and that they are a part of an uninstanced open-world game.  

    If youre worried about someone else getting a mob in front of you, because youre slowly killing the mob youre fighting... remember that the combat isnt different for the other people that ran ahead..  additionally, thats a part of an open-world game.  

    As i understand it, the phasing thing is not confirmed as a solution to distributing mobs, it was just brads thoughts.
    I played EQ1 almost on launch day, and I don't recall this ever being a probelm. It was hard to survive on my own. There were TONS of players back then. Honestly, the servers were overloaded, but we the players didn't know that. In fact, i desired the comapny of others because I didn't know how hte game worked and I there so many interdepndencies (even the lighting was horirble at night).

    So what happens if you're killing something and have it down to 20% and someone else comes by and ninja kills it? I can't remember what happened in EQ1, but I know in most games they give exp reward either to the group, the initiator or the person who scored the most damage--regardless other players who try to ninjakill. Ninastealing was possible wiht gorup members, but generally games don't allow anybody else to loot a corpse until the last couple minutes of its decay.

    I think what delete is addressing here (or elsewhere) is how lots of players can destabilize a strategy. For example, you might plan to take out the front, watching for the pathers, then take out the sides independently and move to the leader. That can take 15 minutes or more. Other players could ruin it, right?? Here's the thing delete, in EQ1 you never really made a complicated strategy like that, unless you were a raid force. Generally, you owned a camp spot too. YOu could complain to GM's if other players were using your camp spot. But more importantly, you EXPECTED to be confronted by other players, constantly. It was a mess delete. A beautiful mess. There were trains and you spent half the time running for your life. You were lucky to survive to get a level. Strategies revolved around killing what was aggroed on you and making sure you didn't get adds. It didn't go any further than that, so other players couldn't really ruin your strategy. In raids, GM's offered protection if another raid force ruined it. IN all other areas, you always were prepared fro other players. In fact, other players were a part of your longterm strategy. YOu didn't what you could, but not more than you could realisticaly expect.

    It was fun. Really fun. But not everybody feels the same way. Some people felt it was boring or toxic or not fun at all. We didn't all come away with the same feelings. Apparently a lot of people didn't like it, and that's why we had WoW. It's why we now have MSORPGs. And it's a big reason we have instancing.

    I liked it. For the most part, I wasn't on waiting lists or feeling bad about a complex strategy ruined by someone else. I was having fun exploring norrath, gaining epxeirence, making friends and so forth. I was too busy having good times, and even to this day I seek out similar chaotic open world environments.

    And delete, I played on Sullon Zek for a lot of levels. In fact, in 1999 I started on Rallos Zek. That's where I mostly played. I made a few characters on Vallon Zek. In 2001 I started on Sullon Zek and that's where I stayed for about 40 or 50 levels until Sullon Zek merged into Zek. On the PvP servers GM protection was generally weaker. On the Sullon Zek server there were NO, positively NO GM protection for camps or raids or anything. If other players purposely caused a train GM's would not protect anybody. If anothe raid force came and ruined the raid for someone else, GM's wouldn't be there. ANy level could kill any other level. It was open world FFA PvP. Supposedly, it's the worst possible combination of every factor. You know what? I loved it. I so thoroughly enjoyed it,  I've looked for similar mechanics in every MMO ever since. Click on the "Who can releate" linked in my signature. Amongst MMORPG players, I guess I'm sort of like a cowboy. I am not a civilized player and do not like overcontrolled environments where safety is guaranteed. This makes me a weirdo I suppose. I freely admit it.

    I think hte issue is people don't understand just how different people can be. Somtimes other people enjoy something we hate.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
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