There is a U.S. federal law called the CAN-SPAM Act. It regulates e-mail solicitations. One of its requirements is that an e-mail ad must include an "easy opt-out option." That is why you see the "unsubscribe" link on spam you get, which, if used, is supposed to remove you from their mailing list.
That is an example of a law taking into account the needs of business (to advertise their goods and services) and the needs of consumers (to be free from spam). Laws don't have to be oppressive or one sided. And they are enacted in furtherance of the general welfare, not just sellers and not just buyers.
But, there are always some scummy companies who do things like put "unsubscribe" in micro text or in the same color as the background, so you can't find it to click on it. And THAT would be an example of an unethical business practice (as well as a possible violation of the Act). It is not "adult" behavior on the company's part when they try to evade the law and deceive e-mail recipients. And it is not a lack of "responsibility" when a consumer doesn't see the hidden text.
So that is my point really. Accept it or reject it. Either way my work here is done I believe. This thread is getting a bit chippy for my tastes.
It's probably important to note that there are a lot of scam "spam" e-mails that claim that you have to contact them and of course they give you a link. And of course "you don't click on that link" as it just leads you to where you want to go.
One thing I've noticed for some of them is that they include a "unsubscribe" e-mail but that unsubscribe link is just another link to lead you to where they want you to go.
Just be careful.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If you want consumer friendly laws then you need to support consumer friendly lawmakers.
Don't assume that if you can ban the business model that you don't like, companies will move to a different one that you do. Instead, they'll move to a different business model that you also don't like--and possibly find even worse than the original.
If you cripple revenue from selling games by requiring companies to allow you to resell a used copy of a digital game, then they'll move away from selling games entirely. I don't know exactly what they'd do, but it could easily be something along the lines of renting games, where instead of paying once to have access forever, you have to pay a monthly fee to keep access.
Just look at Microsoft products. People would sell or give away their old Office disk when they got the new version. The old version still worked, but Microsoft never saw a dime for the new user. Now you no longer purchase Microsoft Office, you rent a subscription to use Office. Yes, it's a reoccurring annual charge.
Companies will find a way to win. Your only true recourse is to take responsibility.
There is a U.S. federal law called the CAN-SPAM Act. It regulates e-mail solicitations. One of its requirements is that an e-mail ad must include an "easy opt-out option." That is why you see the "unsubscribe" link on spam you get, which, if used, is supposed to remove you from their mailing list.
That is an example of a law taking into account the needs of business (to advertise their goods and services) and the needs of consumers (to be free from spam). Laws don't have to be oppressive or one sided. And they are enacted in furtherance of the general welfare, not just sellers and not just buyers.
But, there are always some scummy companies who do things like put "unsubscribe" in micro text or in the same color as the background, so you can't find it to click on it. And THAT would be an example of an unethical business practice (as well as a possible violation of the Act). It is not "adult" behavior on the company's part when they try to evade the law and deceive e-mail recipients. And it is not a lack of "responsibility" when a consumer doesn't see the hidden text.
So that is my point really. Accept it or reject it. Either way my work here is done I believe. This thread is getting a bit chippy for my tastes.
A lot depends on what you want your proposed law to do. If the objection is that a company is doing something fraudulent like making recurring charges without telling you up front or making it really hard to figure out how to cancel your account, then sure, that should be banned. A lot of fraudulent practices already are illegal, so there's no need to create new, duplicative laws, though loopholes that were missed sometimes need to be addressed.
But if a company clearly tells you up front that a subscription is a recurring charge every 30 days, and makes it easier to cancel the subscription than to sign up in the first place, then I don't see a problem.
There also needs to be some role for consumers refusing to buy from scummy companies, in addition to laws to ban outright fraud. For example, I'll never buy anything from Zenimax ever again after the scam that was ESO. I've been boycotting EA for decades, too, for a wide variety of transgressions. Make it unprofitable to mistreat your customers, and companies will figure it out.
i recently re-subbed to swtor to see the new content, and was pleased to see they have a non-recurring 60 day option.
Well that's new since the last time I played SWTOR. It's the way they all should be.
So does eq and eq2 and istaria. I think most games I've played have a non renewing option.
Maybe I'm playing the wrong games because I think I saw it once but I can't even remember what game it was on. They're obviously very tricky things to program
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Yeah those awful laws like mandatory universal health care in almost all 1st world countries except the US, mandatory sprinklers in new building construction, mandatory seat belts and helmets... awful, awful stuff.
There's also a difference between up front transparent financial transactions and the deliberately inconvenient ones no matter how small that inconvenience might be.
Your inane over-emphasis on personal responsibility just lets any and all business practices off the hook as long as no one has bothered to make a regulation against it yet.
That's not being and adult, that's just being dumb.
Most countries touting universal healthcare are 1) small and homogenized and 2) going broke due to their healthcare system. Sounds wonderful.
Building regulations for public safety aren't "save you from yourself" laws. You aren't asking them to be responsible for your actions because they put in a fire suppression system. If your neglect starts a fire, guess what?... you will be held responsible.
Seat belt laws, along with all other automotive laws, are only enforceable on public roads, making them a public safety law. You can be as stupid as you want with your car on your own property.
Buying a game, signing up for a monthly subscription and giving them your personal information and credit card number is fairly transparent. You didn't have to buy the game or give them any of your information. That was a choice you made. Your lack of responsibility isn't their problem. You trying to make it their problem is you not taking responsibility.
Most countries touting universal healthcare are 1) small and homogenized and 2) going broke due to their healthcare system. Sounds wonderful.
I'll make sure to tell my fellow Canadians that we're not an officially bilingual multicultural country and that we're all going broke lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
About 20 years ago, I signed up for some website (that I wouldn't have wanted anyone to know i subscribed to) and then i forgot which website it was and I couldn't cancel the monthly renewal. So i went and got a new debit card .
I'm embarrassed to this day that I succumbed to that pathetic crap about half a life time ago. Oh well.
I do think auto-renewing is scummy as well as free trials automatically subscribing you if you forget to cancel, but it is capitalism and we live in this type of world. So it is par for the course.
Either set your own methods to help prevent the BS or avoid it. It is the way it is. Yes, I think they shouldn't do it but good luck with that.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
About 20 years ago, I signed up for some website (that I wouldn't have wanted anyone to know i subscribed to) and then i forgot which website it was and I couldn't cancel the monthly renewal. So i went and got a new debit card .
I'm embarrassed to this day that I succumbed to that pathetic crap about half a life time ago. Oh well.
I do think auto-renewing is scummy as well as free trials automatically subscribing you if you forget to cancel, but it is capitalism and we live in this type of world. So it is par for the course.
Either set your own methods to help prevent the BS or avoid it. It is the way it is. Yes, I think they shouldn't do it but good luck with that.
I did add the old man yells at cloud meme to my own post didn't I? I'm not expecting change just calling out a scummy practice.
That my thread acted as a lightning rod for fatalists and libertarians was a surprise. I really wasn't expecting much of a response except maybe a "Yeah, duh."
Quite the Roschach test it turned into lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Most countries touting universal healthcare are 1) small and homogenized and 2) going broke due to their healthcare system. Sounds wonderful.
I'll make sure to tell my fellow Canadians that we're not an officially bilingual multicultural country and that we're all going broke lol.
Canada has roughly 10% of the population that America has and takes in a fraction of immigrants. We get more illegal immigrants than Canada gets total immigrants annually and our legal immigration is over four times that of Canada.
Our illegal immigration population is almost equal to Canadas total population. Our total immigrant population alone is four times that of Canadas total population. Canadas total population is roughly the same as Los Angeles county.
So yeah, small and homogenized in comparison. And I lived in Canada. I have permanent resident status there. We have a home in Kamloops BC. The healthcare there sucks and your taxed to death to get it.
I just stayed there with my girlfriend last month. nice little town.
A place where the fishing is awesome and the sushi sucks
As to the topic: I don't see much difference as compared to getting a cable tv or newspaper subscription.
It's pretty much how subscription services have operated since their inception. I don't have a problem with it as long as its easy and convenient to cancel.
I remember the days not very long ago when you have to sit on a phone for 30 minutes plus to unsubscribe from a service and that really sucked.
I just stayed there with my girlfriend last month. nice little town.
Personally I find it a weird little town and not really representative of BC socially or with its climate. They even have rattlesnakes in the area, sheesh.
To me the "real" BC is the rain forest you see all up and down the coast and on the islands and socially the Greater Vancouver and Vancouver Island areas are where the real "left coast" resides.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I just stayed there with my girlfriend last month. nice little town.
Personally I find it a weird little town and not really representative of BC socially or with its climate. They even have rattlesnakes in the area, sheesh.
To me the "real" BC is the rain forest you see all up and down the coast and on the islands and socially the Greater Vancouver and Vancouver Island areas are where the real "left coast" resides.
I think it is a weird town! I suppose that's why we liked it.
The park was nice and we got some beautiful pictures. It feels a bit eccentric. We didn't make it to Vancouver Island but stayed for 3 1/2 days in Vancouver. Some amazong restaurants in your country.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I just stayed there with my girlfriend last month. nice little town.
Personally I find it a weird little town and not really representative of BC socially or with its climate. They even have rattlesnakes in the area, sheesh.
To me the "real" BC is the rain forest you see all up and down the coast and on the islands and socially the Greater Vancouver and Vancouver Island areas are where the real "left coast" resides.
Every valley in BC is quite different ecologically from the valley next to it. I spend a lot of time in the outdoors, you and I, live in a hell of a place.
I just stayed there with my girlfriend last month. nice little town.
Personally I find it a weird little town and not really representative of BC socially or with its climate. They even have rattlesnakes in the area, sheesh.
To me the "real" BC is the rain forest you see all up and down the coast and on the islands and socially the Greater Vancouver and Vancouver Island areas are where the real "left coast" resides.
I think it is a weird town! I suppose that's why we liked it.
The park was nice and we got some beautiful pictures. It feels a bit eccentric. We didn't make it to Vancouver Island but stayed for 3 1/2 days in Vancouver. Some amazong restaurants in your country.
If there is a next time, throw me a pm, I'd be delighted to treat you to some of what the area has to offer.
As to the topic: I don't see much difference as compared to getting a cable tv or newspaper subscription.
It's pretty much how subscription services have operated since their inception. I don't have a problem with it as long as its easy and convenient to cancel.
I remember the days not very long ago when you have to sit on a phone for 30 minutes plus to unsubscribe from a service and that really sucked.
Yeah I know auto-sub has been around forever. I mentioned magazines and book clubs in my OP. And yeah cancelling anything in the phone days was definitely more of a PITA.
For some reason it just feels scummier to me now in the internet age since it would be so simple to add that recurring sub or not tick box. I'd even prefer to get my email spammed by them when it's about to expire.
With WOW Classic I had a feeling I wouldn't stick around too long so I just went with a 60 day card. I think it's the no fuss convenience of 60 day cards for WOW existing side by side with Credit Card subs that auto renew that triggered me. Same game: one perfectly reasonable system and another that feels like a relic from the '60s... /shrug. Yelling at clouds occasionally is good for the soul.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I think you are defending the business practices of people who know good and well (and likely have reports and studies on it) how many people will forget/neglect to click non-renew. They are relying on it. They are profiting from it.
This nonsense about adults and responsibilities and all that type of jazz is for the birds. People can disagree about business ethics without one person having to be the non-adult.
For example, pickpockets touch or bump you as a distraction while taking your belongings. When I lived in Manhattan, I got in the habit of checking my wallet every single time anybody touched me. It's over 30 years later, and I no longer live in Manhattan, but I still do that.
But it sucks. And it doesn't mean every victim of a pickpocket deserves what they get just because they aren't as careful as I am. The pickpocket is still to blame.
There are differences, though. The auto-sub is a box giving permission. A pickpocket is committing a crime. There is also the difference of how easy it is to unsubscribe, or if it is even a choice given.
If the complaint is because a player simply can't be bothered to unsubscribe, I have zero sympathy for them. If it is a case of the business making it more than difficult, if at all possible to unsubscribe, then that's illegal, or should be.
All in all, businesses are here to make money. They are neither good or evil, lawful or unlawful. But their CEOs and Presidents are very much human with good/evil intentions. If a business has unethical practices, the people running them should pay for their crimes. Quite a bit different from, "I can't be bothered."
Just my nickel's worth
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
i recently re-subbed to swtor to see the new content, and was pleased to see they have a non-recurring 60 day option.
Well that's new since the last time I played SWTOR. It's the way they all should be.
So does eq and eq2 and istaria. I think most games I've played have a non renewing option.
EQ2 does not have a non-recurring option directly from the subscription page. I just checked. All options are recurring only (1, 3, 6, and 12 months). If there is a non-recurring option I couldn't find it.
SWTOR's non-recurring option is always the shittiest deal of any and never comes with bonuses for buying extra time or the promo benefits the recurring options offer. Cancelling the recurring sub is a small text link that isn't easy to spot.
Why are we pretending this is acceptable when it's so easy to make it above board.
You're right. My mistake. Their advertisement when you log out of the game only shows Auto renew for 3 6 and 12 month not one month. But when you actually do go to the subscription page to actually buy your time one month is auto renew.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Actually the worst is when they have a wallet system like SOE did and then they don't even tell you when it is being eaten up. I tried one of their lesser games, hated it, and didn't realize it was auto-renew until I got a message 9 months later that they tried to charge for it and my wallet was empty. They wouldn't deal with me at all and THAT was the reason I never went back to EQ2 again (I had enough money in the wallet for the next expansion and was planning on going back when it dropped. Weeeelll that changed my mind on it.)
Comments
One thing I've noticed for some of them is that they include a "unsubscribe" e-mail but that unsubscribe link is just another link to lead you to where they want you to go.
Just be careful.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But if a company clearly tells you up front that a subscription is a recurring charge every 30 days, and makes it easier to cancel the subscription than to sign up in the first place, then I don't see a problem.
There also needs to be some role for consumers refusing to buy from scummy companies, in addition to laws to ban outright fraud. For example, I'll never buy anything from Zenimax ever again after the scam that was ESO. I've been boycotting EA for decades, too, for a wide variety of transgressions. Make it unprofitable to mistreat your customers, and companies will figure it out.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I'm embarrassed to this day that I succumbed to that pathetic crap about half a life time ago. Oh well.
I do think auto-renewing is scummy as well as free trials automatically subscribing you if you forget to cancel, but it is capitalism and we live in this type of world. So it is par for the course.
Either set your own methods to help prevent the BS or avoid it. It is the way it is. Yes, I think they shouldn't do it but good luck with that.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
That my thread acted as a lightning rod for fatalists and libertarians was a surprise. I really wasn't expecting much of a response except maybe a "Yeah, duh."
Quite the Roschach test it turned into lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As to the topic: I don't see much difference as compared to getting a cable tv or newspaper subscription.
It's pretty much how subscription services have operated since their inception. I don't have a problem with it as long as its easy and convenient to cancel.
I remember the days not very long ago when you have to sit on a phone for 30 minutes plus to unsubscribe from a service and that really sucked.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
To me the "real" BC is the rain forest you see all up and down the coast and on the islands and socially the Greater Vancouver and Vancouver Island areas are where the real "left coast" resides.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The park was nice and we got some beautiful pictures. It feels a bit eccentric. We didn't make it to Vancouver Island but stayed for 3 1/2 days in Vancouver. Some amazong restaurants in your country.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
For some reason it just feels scummier to me now in the internet age since it would be so simple to add that recurring sub or not tick box. I'd even prefer to get my email spammed by them when it's about to expire.
With WOW Classic I had a feeling I wouldn't stick around too long so I just went with a 60 day card. I think it's the no fuss convenience of 60 day cards for WOW existing side by side with Credit Card subs that auto renew that triggered me. Same game: one perfectly reasonable system and another that feels like a relic from the '60s... /shrug. Yelling at clouds occasionally is good for the soul.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If the complaint is because a player simply can't be bothered to unsubscribe, I have zero sympathy for them. If it is a case of the business making it more than difficult, if at all possible to unsubscribe, then that's illegal, or should be.
All in all, businesses are here to make money. They are neither good or evil, lawful or unlawful. But their CEOs and Presidents are very much human with good/evil intentions. If a business has unethical practices, the people running them should pay for their crimes. Quite a bit different from, "I can't be bothered."
Just my nickel's worth
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR