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Repetition - Boring or Relaxing?
Amathe
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
This post is about a gaming issue, not any particular game.
What to do about repetition in online games seems to be a core "patient zero" level issue?
One person feels he has to "grind" to advance. Another finds that exact same content pleasurable and calming. One guy thinks putting together 1,000 items to progress in crafting is maddening. Another lady thinks this is relaxing. And of course, raiders kill the same boss 100 or so times to get everyone on the raid team geared. Others hold their nose at that prospect.
Some may say "well, it's not whether there is repetition - it's whether it's interesting and entertaining." That sounds reasonable. But personally I think it comes down to how much repetition you can tolerate, and if it's a low threshold, no one can make that entertaining for you. Ask yourself, how many times in a row will you play your favorite song? My fraternity brothers will tell you that for me, it's 50 or more until people want to choke me. My tolerance for repetition is sky high.
As an example, I remember the original Sim City. That was so relaxing! Plunk down this. Plunk down that. Time for a police station! I used to while away my evenings in repetitious bliss. Then they kept improving on it to add tons and tons of variables and decision making. I quit playing. I don't want to solve a f**ing puzzle. I want to lay train track in perfect little rectangles.
It's the same with combat. We can't have some guy spamming one button! That would be shallow and repetitious! We need 20 abilities that all interact in some way with one another to make them more or less useful at any given time. Because that's more, what, cerebral? Ok, sure. It's also more stressful and less relaxing. I study the characters and choose the one that comes closest to just pushing one button lol. Finding that is harder than it sounds, btw.
This issue ties into another one, which is whether you are trying to prove yourself or distinguish yourself in game? Because of course, if major game objectives can be achieved simply by doing mindless stuff again and again, what does that prove? Mostly it proves either that you enjoy repetition or that you have the strength of will to grit your teeth and do what you hate.
And that has always been a part of mmorpgs. I am level 57. You are level 20. For you to get to where I am, do you know all the miserable shit you will have to do? Success is in part achieved through the status of having done lousy things others blanche at doing.
Let's face it. There's going to be repetition. It would cost a zillion dollars to design without it. Whether you like that or hate that really depends mostly on whether you are a "repetition is fun" or "repetition stinks" kind of person.
What to do about repetition in online games seems to be a core "patient zero" level issue?
One person feels he has to "grind" to advance. Another finds that exact same content pleasurable and calming. One guy thinks putting together 1,000 items to progress in crafting is maddening. Another lady thinks this is relaxing. And of course, raiders kill the same boss 100 or so times to get everyone on the raid team geared. Others hold their nose at that prospect.
Some may say "well, it's not whether there is repetition - it's whether it's interesting and entertaining." That sounds reasonable. But personally I think it comes down to how much repetition you can tolerate, and if it's a low threshold, no one can make that entertaining for you. Ask yourself, how many times in a row will you play your favorite song? My fraternity brothers will tell you that for me, it's 50 or more until people want to choke me. My tolerance for repetition is sky high.
As an example, I remember the original Sim City. That was so relaxing! Plunk down this. Plunk down that. Time for a police station! I used to while away my evenings in repetitious bliss. Then they kept improving on it to add tons and tons of variables and decision making. I quit playing. I don't want to solve a f**ing puzzle. I want to lay train track in perfect little rectangles.
It's the same with combat. We can't have some guy spamming one button! That would be shallow and repetitious! We need 20 abilities that all interact in some way with one another to make them more or less useful at any given time. Because that's more, what, cerebral? Ok, sure. It's also more stressful and less relaxing. I study the characters and choose the one that comes closest to just pushing one button lol. Finding that is harder than it sounds, btw.
This issue ties into another one, which is whether you are trying to prove yourself or distinguish yourself in game? Because of course, if major game objectives can be achieved simply by doing mindless stuff again and again, what does that prove? Mostly it proves either that you enjoy repetition or that you have the strength of will to grit your teeth and do what you hate.
And that has always been a part of mmorpgs. I am level 57. You are level 20. For you to get to where I am, do you know all the miserable shit you will have to do? Success is in part achieved through the status of having done lousy things others blanche at doing.
Let's face it. There's going to be repetition. It would cost a zillion dollars to design without it. Whether you like that or hate that really depends mostly on whether you are a "repetition is fun" or "repetition stinks" kind of person.
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If I find that I have to do things I don't like in a game, and do them a LOT, I don't play it.
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I also understand the proving yourself stuff. I hated when original WOW went "easy-mode." Like, "hey, it took me months to get xyz thing! and now you get it just for showing up? wtf!"
Like, in GW2 you grind for achievements that unlock other achievements that have you grind for more achievements to complete those achievements which unlocks more achievements that you have to grind to complete those achievements which then gives you a crafting item then you have to grind gathering mats or grind gold to buy the mats so you can craft other crafting items that are used in a recipe to finally create the item that you're after.
That kind of thing is abysmal. It's not just boring, it's soul destroying.
Then you have games where you can grind, get lots of loot, make lots of money or earn levels/skill/crafting points along the way. The rewards for what you're doing are coming in thick and consistently.
That kind of thing feels like progression and progression can be all someone needs to feel like their time is well spent even when they are hardly putting in any effort.
I define grinding as being forced to do something that you don't want to do in order to get the thing you want or be able to do the thing want to do. If you want to do the repetitious part in the first place, it's not grinding.
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Fast paced repetition (like in Dynasty Warriors or Diablo) is something I find quite relaxing. It's part of the power fantasy.
Grinding on a typical MMO is not something I tend to find enjoyable. It's slow, dull, and has no stakes.
But I do deliberately repeat content when playing alts though. I start them in a familiar zone and do what I said above with them. I do it just to get a subjective feel for the alt compared to previous runs with other builds/classes through the same content. So I guess that means I don't mind repetition as long as I'm doing it for a specific reason.
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Thing is it is the progression and what you have to look forward to. A goal. What is your goal. Mine was to make a new house. I made the bricks everything, I had a crafter for every piece of furniture and the house construction itself. I did grind but because of my goal of building the house itself it was a part of the satisfaction of seeing the house in the end. I didn't really give the grind much thought I just did it. I won't say it was relaxing because my wrist started to ache.
However seeing my house made it all worth it and I did not consider the grind a horrible thing. It was like a badge something you earned and your reward was the result. It is repetition but crafting in Vanguard was not mindless you had to pay attention or you do not react to the cues in time and the resulting product was sub par.
Occasionally I spend time just killing mobs and that can be relaxing, not for quests or anything just grinding experience. It all depends on my mood. Or you could spend time collecting resources like killing boars for skins to craft.
In other times you could just run dungeons over and over again and in a way that can be boring too but if the dungeon is fairly challenging or your role is demanding it may not be boring. The circumstances will decide that in the end.
If the design is well done so that you have to actually pay attention and react,then repetition is at least interesting,challenging.I don't like to use the word FUN because that term is over used way too often.
We are already taking almsot all immersion out of games,we don't need to ruin mmorpg's anymore.Like automated travel,markers over npc heads,meters to show people that rather have it easy than think about their actions,all of what i have been seeing has been catering to LAZY gamer's and the type that want it EASY.
How about Wow and auto warping to a dungeon,that is not immersion that is amateur game design,clueless type system designers.Why can't someone design a mmorpg properly,immersion,plausible realism?I assume two things,bad gmae designers and catering to the larger crowd of bad gamer.s,the type of people who haven't a clue how to immerse themselves in a rpg nor even care to do so.
MMORPG"s have dumbed down so far,we use the letters RPG in ARPG's,we are getting games like MHW,all people care about is the LOOT in these rpg's,the BOSS,the RAID,we took mmorpg's and dumbed them all the way down to idiocy.
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I'm playing Classic WoW right now as a Paladin, which is largely auto attacking for damage all the way to 60. Sounds conceptually boring, but it isn't because you're making important decisions all throughout combat with your other abilities. Which seal do I want active? Should I judge a seal for an effect? Should I judge for straight damage? How mana efficient do I need to be? Do I need to stun or can I time a quick heal between mob swings? Where are the other mobs in the area? Oh no I've got an add, do I need to run for it? Should I gut it out and burn resources and long cooldowns to win? Oh no I'm almost dead and OoM should I go to my last resort and Lay on Hands?
A small number of abilities can be fun, if you have to make decisions on how to use them. You can have 50 abilities, but if you're just doing the same thing over and over with no variation, no decision making and no challenge, it's going to be boring and grindy despite the complexity.
Recently I was playing POE and enjoying it until ...level 94.
For some reason I found myself stuck, the experience gains were coming too slowly vs the fixed losses from the occasional death.. and my progress came to a halt.
I actually spent about 3 weeks trying to overcome this barrier but to no avail. So I promptly quit and started playing FO76...where I am again able to resume my progession quest.
Same happened in L2 so many years ago, really enjoyed until around level 56 or so when my progession stalled.
Started grouping up with guild mates but even then we might make 5% gain in a 2 hour hunting session and one death could erase most of my progress.
This just wasn't fun for me, doing some quick math I could see at best it might take a year or more to reach max level which it was important to be at unless one enjoyed being one shot in sieges. (I don't particularly. )
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Ive hit 90 a couple of times, in the 80's a bunch, in the 70's, and lesser.
Ive died to some really dumb stuff too but do it, dont be a wuss.
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Combat: I miss the small "skill gains" a character received while using different weapons in EQ 1 and old WoW. Those little "[skill] is now 7/17/27/77" messages felt good, however tiny they were. Using all the different weapons your class was allowed kept combat interesting as you ground for levels. Good, sociable groups can make "the grind" more enjoyable for me. It's been a long, long time since that happened
Questing: I enjoy being able to grab multiple quests that I can work on simultaneously. Running back to a quest giver can be OK if I keep my crafting needs in my mind while I travel. I may also run back a different way
Crafting and exploring I try to do while doing other things. I may set out to do a whole session of crafting, but even then I may run out of materials and have to go "hunting/gathering" for more.
I am finding that the older I get, the more mind numbing and relaxing the game, the more I like it. I guess my heart is getting weak
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
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