A little off the deep end.

delete5230 · October 2019

Initially everything was going right,

I assumed a lot in the beginning….. I expected a simple world with complex character building done in modern times with better and more natural interface. Better Caves Keeps and Dungeons to explore.

Simple being the key, the complexities being what YOU the player makes of it. A first generation game.

The assumption was justified because I was using Vanguard as the template. It was as I described above, some place between first and second generation. They didn't try and break any molds, but the programming was off.

They relied on simple charm because that works too.

Let me explain:

-You have a fully flushed out luxury car full of all modern upgrades.

-You have a charming walk across the lush country side.

Both are equally beautiful in their categories and the charming walk is what I assume is Pantheon.

Because of EQ1 back in its day then Vanguard, it proves Brad was the master of beautiful, simple, charming.... He is a true artist !

Now here's the punch line,

He absolutely SUCKS at the technical. In many ways he is destroying his own work by insisting he's good at both. His programming and decisions on programming are wacked.

He would be best sitting in the command chair "upholding his artistic nature". Because what we had seen and read Pantheon is turning into a hot mess.

Stubborn in art, and stubborn in technical, stubborn in management you cant have all three!......I assumed Vanguard was a bad series of mistakes and bad luck.... I think differently now. Some things never change.

delete5230 · October 2019

It's clear,
Think about the Microsoft / Vanguard deal. When Brad went in front of the board of directors he proved his artistic nature, they assumed he was a good programmer too.

A lot of money was wasted in this transaction.

delete5230 · October 2019

I call it "head up your butt syndrome"

-I've been in a technical field all my life. I've seen many deep thinkers that can't fix anything. Infact I'm one of three technicians doing the exact same job, the other two deep thinkers can't produce anything.... Their smart, but their head is up their butt.

-I also assumed Washing DC had intellectual people running the country... Now I see they only have an intellectual look on their puss. Not intellectual at all.

-Collage does nothing, an education grantees you a job. It's self proclaimed, you may not be good at all.... collage, just proves hard work.

-Education, At 10 years old you can decide you want to be a firefighter. Later you train for it, you learn everything about fuel and oxygen mixtures and all the technical stuff associated with fighting fires.....Yet, your afraid to risk your life in saving a baby... Are you a good fire fighter ?.... All because you had a self proclaimed thought at 10 years old, and took the necessary steps to fill your dreams.

- I do Kungfu for 29 years. I've seen pure massive body builders that also have everything going for them, including the looks and cool attitudes... often you can't teach them anything.

You have it or you don't !

Xarko · October 2019

Jenkz · October 2019

Hm. mmhm.

I'm still wondering why the firefighter is scared to go rescue a baby.

delete5230 · October 2019

Jenkz said:

Hm. mmhm.

I'm still wondering why the firefighter is scared to go rescue a baby.

- At first glance being a firefighter sounds cool especially to a 10 year old and basing a life time job choice from something that sounds fun.

- all the firefighting education in the world, doesn't make you a good firefighter if you ignore the danger.

It's a real world example that collage, education, and books are a tiny fraction of real world. It just proves you can study. In this case school doesn't teach fear.

Kyleran · October 2019

College my friend.. college.

Here's the thing, most of us are armchair game devs at best, some with a little knowledge but almost none tackling the challenge of creating a MMORPG.

Sometimes when you try new stuff it succeeds but more often fails than not.

I have no idea where Pantheon stands in terms of code complexity or quality nor does anyone here actually at this point.

Consider not fretting about it too much until more is revealed, who knows, Brad might surprise us all.

In about 5 more years.

Sovrath · October 2019

delete5230 said:

-Collage does nothing,

Apparently not!

Just stop fretting. As I said if it comes out great and if it doesn't great. you need to let go of some things.

delete5230 · October 2019

Kyleran said:

College my friend.. college.

Here's the thing, most of us are armchair game devs at best, some with a little knowledge but almost none tackling the challenge of creating a MMORPG.

Sometimes when you try new stuff it succeeds but more often fails than not.

I have no idea where Pantheon stands in terms of code complexity or quality nor does anyone here actually at this point.

Consider not fretting about it too much until more is revealed, who knows, Brad might surprise us all.

In about 5 more years.

This is true,
I'm convinced the game is barely started yet.
I'm basing this off the assumption that all we seen are minor test zones (playgrounds for testing classes abilities and balance). Now with decision time of how their going about instancing, phasing or non instancing proves its it very early stages even more.

Contrary to all this, its all well and fine... let them work... because of crowdfunding and the nature of it they had to advertise early, wayyyy early. With no admitted time frame two years,five years,ten years, I think its safe to say we all assumed it would be soon.

With nothing on the horizon other than SoL and "many gimmicks"... not much to fantasize about.

On a side note:
Saga of Luchimia is shaping up to be more of what Pantheon fans are expecting and more so like Everquest. But it's easy to hold allegiance to one of the founders that is making Pantheon more popular.

Stormhaven Studios seems much more thought out to in keeping fans happy than Visionary Realms. Their letting their fans play and keeping dark to not allow people to assume.

But from a financial stand point... No one knows.
Stormhaven is a smaller part time. But man, are they pumping content quick

TEKK3N · October 2019

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

delete5230 · October 2019

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

"he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes."

This right here is good enough for me to hold him responsible.

Evidence ?
Watch the many videos and watch the glitch factor, it's huge.

Other than this evidence, prof is ludicrous and moot, unless someone can bring a full team into Visionary Realms studio and analyze the programming then make a full report. Still this could be argued.

This is my way in saying evidence is compliantly impossible, and the word evidence can't be used in something that has "gray areas".

Infinitive opinions.

TEKK3N · October 2019

delete5230 said:

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

"he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes."

This right here is good enough for me to hold him responsible.

Evidence ?
Watch the many videos and watch the glitch factor, it's huge.

Glitches in a pre-alpha build?
Sacrilege!

Is that your evidence?

Sovrath · October 2019

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

For some reason Delete, who has not admitted that he knows anything about programming, seems to think he can make this judgement.

And in truth, unless one is actually on the project, one really can't assess who is responsible for any specific bit of the project.

delete5230 · October 2019

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

For some reason Delete, who has not admitted that he knows anything about programming, seems to think he can make this judgement.

And in truth, unless one is actually on the project, one really can't assess who is responsible for any specific bit of the project.

I'm an auto mechanic too, but lets say I'm not... Just a simple driver.

If I just had my breaks done at an an auto garage and the breaks didn't work and slammed into a tree directly after the work had been done... It would be easy to assume the mechanic is responsible.

TEKK3N · October 2019

delete5230 said:

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

For some reason Delete, who has not admitted that he knows anything about programming, seems to think he can make this judgement.

And in truth, unless one is actually on the project, one really can't assess who is responsible for any specific bit of the project.

I'm an auto mechanic too, but lets say I'm not... Just a simple driver.

If I just had my breaks done at an an auto garage and the breaks didn't work and slammed into a tree directly after the work had been done... It would be easy to assume the mechanic is responsible.

Not if the ‘car’ is still in production (Alpha), and not actually on the road (Released).
You seem to skip this little detail.....

Sovrath · October 2019

delete5230 said:

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

For some reason Delete, who has not admitted that he knows anything about programming, seems to think he can make this judgement.

And in truth, unless one is actually on the project, one really can't assess who is responsible for any specific bit of the project.

I'm an auto mechanic too, but lets say I'm not... Just a simple driver.

If I just had my breaks done at an an auto garage and the breaks didn't work and slammed into a tree directly after the work had been done... It would be easy to assume the mechanic is responsible.

Except you would have first hand knowledge of the "brakes" issue. You have no first hand knowledge of the coding in this game especially a game in alpha. And unlike other games this game is actually in "alpha."

You just basically see some footage, for some reason you jump to conclusions and make declarations based on your own fretting.

delete5230 · October 2019

TEKK3N said:

delete5230 said:

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

For some reason Delete, who has not admitted that he knows anything about programming, seems to think he can make this judgement.

And in truth, unless one is actually on the project, one really can't assess who is responsible for any specific bit of the project.

I'm an auto mechanic too, but lets say I'm not... Just a simple driver.

If I just had my breaks done at an an auto garage and the breaks didn't work and slammed into a tree directly after the work had been done... It would be easy to assume the mechanic is responsible.

Not if the car is still in production.
You seem to skip this little detail.....

Yes and no,
We have to dip into more gray area.

"Through experience" and countless games. Many things never get fixed, this game has the huge possibility of that. You know this is fact a large part of the time too.

In it being a GRAY area,,,, I even anticipated what you will say next

Because I've stated this, your response will be diffident....So basically will be arguing gray areas all day. It's a circle that I'll stop participating in right now.

Go ahead, feel free in having the last word.

TEKK3N · October 2019

Your last post made no sense, no offence.

So I reiterate the concept without the use of metaphors to avoid misunderstandings.
You can’t judge the technical aspect of a game that it is still in Alpha.
You can’t foresee what will be fixed and what will not.

I hope you are sensible enough to understand that.

Utinni · October 2019

TEKK3N said:

Your last post made no sense, no offence.

So I reiterate the concept without the use of metaphors to avoid misunderstandings.
You can’t judge the technical aspect of a game that it is still in Alpha.
You can’t foresee what will be fixed and what will not.

I hope you are sensible enough to understand that.

Pre-Alpha, actually.

Mylan12 · October 2019

delete5230 said:

TEKK3N said:

delete5230 said:

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

Brad Mcquaid is a developer first, he became a designer later.
I don’t understand what is the evidence he is a bad programmer.

In Vanguard he was the executive producer, he had programmers who did the (bad) work for him, I don’t think he touched a single line of code in Vanguard.

Brad is a terrible producer, he doesn’t know how to manage resources, but he ain’t a terrible programmer by any stretch.

Brad ideal role is game designer, which is what he is doing in Pantheon, he is also in charge of altering the Unity engine to fit Pantheon purposes.
Joppa is the executive producer, and there is another dude in charge of the finances.

For some reason Delete, who has not admitted that he knows anything about programming, seems to think he can make this judgement.

And in truth, unless one is actually on the project, one really can't assess who is responsible for any specific bit of the project.

I'm an auto mechanic too, but lets say I'm not... Just a simple driver.

If I just had my breaks done at an an auto garage and the breaks didn't work and slammed into a tree directly after the work had been done... It would be easy to assume the mechanic is responsible.

Not if the car is still in production.
You seem to skip this little detail.....

Yes and no,
We have to dip into more gray area.

"Through experience" and countless games. Many things never get fixed, this game has the huge possibility of that. You know this is fact a large part of the time too.

In it being a GRAY area,,,, I even anticipated what you will say next

Because I've stated this, your response will be diffident....So basically will be arguing gray areas all day. It's a circle that I'll stop participating in right now.

Go ahead, feel free in having the last word.

How many games have you alpha and beta tested delete ? How many software projects have you worked on and directly contributed ?

The proverb 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing' expresses the idea that a small amount of knowledge can mislead people into thinking that they are more expert than they really are, which can lead to mistakes being made.

Kyleran · October 2019

Utinni said:

TEKK3N said:

Your last post made no sense, no offence.

So I reiterate the concept without the use of metaphors to avoid misunderstandings.
You can’t judge the technical aspect of a game that it is still in Alpha.
You can’t foresee what will be fixed and what will not.

I hope you are sensible enough to understand that.

Pre-Alpha, actually.

Doesn't appear as if alpha is coming any time soon,

"It’s hard, pre-alpha is hard. Alpha is still a way out, but it’s like the North Star in my brain, always there, always bright. To make it happen, to implement core systems unique to Pantheon, or even similar systems found elsewhere that we think are great, is going to take a lot of work."

ChildoftheShadows · October 2019

The problem? Insisting that there's always one person to blame for everything, even if it's something that hasn't happened yet.

Tiller · October 2019

Hawkaya399 · November 2019

I don't know delete. Read this:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt; excerpt from speech "Citizenship In A Republic", at Sorbonne, Paris, France on 23 April, 1910.

RIP Brad. From his blog post (July 17 2017):

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/180/want-went-wrong-wo-w-wo-w-killers-or-a-general-lack-of-guts

...The game was called Titan. And it was cancelled when Blizzard realized they they'd already grown the MMO gamespace about as far as anyone could... they could either decide to specialize and focus future MMOs on specific audiences, holding true to what that audience wants and enjoys, or they could move along and dominate other computer and video game genres. As a large, extremely successful game developer I don't think focusing on smaller groups and specializing multiple smaller games fit into their overall corporate strategy. So if Titan wasn't going to significantly grow the MMO gamespace like WoW had, their choice was to cancel it. While that sort of bums me out and I feel for those who worked so hard on it, I also respect the decision. They'd reached a point where if they continued to try to make their MMOs more mass market that the games themselves were simply going to cease to be MMOs anymore. If you go down the long road of eliminating anything that defines the MMO genre because it might be something some player doesn't care for, where do you end up? Where does that road eventually lead? Well, I think we can already see quite far down that road -- check out the mega-expensive but likewise mega-watered down MMOs that have come out post-WoW. After all of that time, money, and effort the result has been MMOs that really aren't MMOs anymore. Some people don't like to have to interact with a community, so remove the community. Some don't like to have to find others to group with, so remove grouping. Some people don't have the time to go after and earn powerful yet rare items, so make it either so all items are easily obtainable or make it so the rare ones can also be purchased for real money. Some people don't want to have to play months or even years to play through a character to maximum level, so decrease this time and effort and make the game a quick rush to the 'end game', allowing people to bypass most of the content by jumping to whatever that 'end game' is supposed to be, or even perceived to be.

Where I disagree with him is I don't think they remove things outright, they just water it down, repackage it so it looks the same or incomparable, and sell it as something innovative and a breath of fresh air. That's what hte best game designers do. They're extremely good at it. And it's all extremely polished and great looking with a great story behind it. Great vibes. Runs on a toaster if needed. All this makes it sell well. It's by no means easy. Lots of talent to accomplish this, not just money. This is how so many MMORPGs are actually MSORPGs, but hey, who cares to painfully tear apart the illusion when they're having so much fun?

This right here. This is why I watched Brad over all these years. I found a connection with him. I'm becoming an old geezer too. Beware all the young ones. You'll go through the same process, unless you're one of those lucky ones that never holds onto anything or has a negative thought. This isn't a threat. It's not painful--it's adversity. I guess it's just a reality of life that sometimes we don't agree with what happens in the world, but we find reasons to hang on and stay optimistic about it.

I don't buy into the pessimism about Pantheon. Based on what I know, I think we'll get something. Versus what you all supposedly bemoan about modern MMORPGs, something is definitely going to be better than the alternative. So be grateful we'll get something. Keep a good attitude. Take a break.

My plan is to play SOL and whatever releases with Pantheon--or is inspired by Pantheon!!! And play everywhere else out there. Contrary to popular opinion, I have high hopes. I think we should be looking at other genres too and keep an open mind to new experiences. Even Rust-like MMO's are on my radar. There's really so much to be optimistic about. I'm amazed what some young developers do. It's wasteful to have a bad attitude. The sun is actually out but some people refuse to open their eyes and feel it.

RIP Brad. I wish I could have had a night to talk with him. We all can die at anytime. Reminds me don't take life for granted.

Gdemami · November 2019

Sovrath said:
Except you would have first hand knowledge of the "brakes" issue. You have no first hand knowledge of the coding in this game especially a game in alpha. And unlike other games this game is actually in "alpha."

You just basically see some footage, for some reason you jump to conclusions and make declarations based on your own fretting.

...very much standard mmorg.com post where everyone thinks they know better than actual developers they sling mud at.

Why being so hard on him...?

Amathe · November 2019

ChildoftheShadows said:

The problem? Insisting that there's always one person to blame for everything, even if it's something that hasn't happened yet.

If you get a chance please share that observation with my boss. He has not gotten the memo.

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A little off the deep end.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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A little off the deep end.

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV