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Action combat: Taken too far in ESO?

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  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,922
    Yes, Im not willing to make the sacrifices necessary for that because I would then cease to enjoy the activity.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • BlazerXBlazerX Member UncommonPosts: 71
    Palebane said:
    Yes, Im not willing to make the sacrifices necessary for that because I would then cease to enjoy the activity.
    But then this is exactly the point.  People like you are not who ZOS considers when balancing the game and making drastic changes.  They are doing it from the perspective of their end-game content and the players who do that content.

    Which then alienates all those newbie players who reach the end game and find they've been screwed to learn this shitty playstyle/mechanic or quit.

    In the end ZOS is destroying their own game.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,209
    BlazerX said:

    Let me give you a explicit example of how retarded and broken this game is.
    Doing Maelstrom on Veteren and doing it Flawless meaning doing the whole thing without stopping and not dying once gives you the "Flawless Conquerer Title" <- now having this title truly tells anyone who have tried this dungeon that hey that guy really knows what he is doing as a player/class.

    Now the thing is, you don't have to pull 45k+ or even say 30k+ to be able to do this as long as you know WTF you are doing in this dungeon and get it down, meaning you know mechanics.

    Now.  Knowing mechanics doesn't really mean shit to a progression guild because all they care about in ESO progression guilds (if you have any fucking idea what your talking about) only cares about your DPS, because having high DPS allows you to kill the boss faster and not have to do all the mechanics.  That is the point, because doing mechanics takes longer and it literally sucks to be stuck in a dungeon for hours doing the same shit over and over again because someone made a small mistake and it wipes the raid.

    BUT the only way to parse higher in this game IS to do animation cancelling because this is the ONLY WAY to get higher dps reaching 45k+.  Understand?   No amount of optimizing your skills or CP points or "correcting rotation" is going to get you remotely near that DPS threshold.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND?  So animation cancelling at high end raiding IS A REQUIREMENT.

    Therefore it may be impressive that you have this "Flawless Conquerer" title, but it doesn't really matter jack shit to a progression guild if your still parsing below say 40K or even 45 to 50k in those "elite" progression guilds.

    And wait...wait for it.  Here is the catchall.  In order for you to even remotely consider doing the end content in ESO, you HAVE TO BE IN A PROGRESSION GUILD!  TADA!  How fucking retarded and ouroborous shit is that?  Fucking ZOS doesn't even begin to know shit or they do and have no fucking clue how to fix it.

    From reading your replies thus far, it gives me the very strong impression that you have never really done high-end content in ESO.
    At least you've played the game and know enough to know that the one and only place in the game where animation cancelling is a requirement is in high end progression guild hardmode trial runs and why they require it: it's not even that it's required to complete the highest difficulty raid content - it can be done without it easily enough - it's that it's required to do it fast enough to get you on the leaderboard and THAT is what progression guilds are all about and that is why they require 45-50k DPS to raid with them.

    It's not required anywhere else unlike what people who have never played the game or played for 2 weeks think. And that's the majority of the animation cancelling sucks posts in this forum. Neither vMA nor vet dungeon runs require it since that's all about knowing the instance's mechanics.

    From my experience it's middling players who are still mostly noobs - those in the CP 300 - 500 range - who start all the pissing matches in PUG vet dungeon runs about not enough DPS when they're actually fucking it up because they have no clue how to complete the dungeon properly.

    I've even seen people rush in and kill the 3 adds for the shepherd boss in vet FG2, which increases the boss' health and damage mitigation by a fuckton leading to a very, very long fight and then bitch about low DPS lol. If you do it properly and kite the adds away from the boss without killing them while everyone else focuses the boss the fight is over in a minute with even shit DPS. 

    And that's how the urban legend that everything in ESO requires animation cancelling gets started: dumb people saying dumb shit about things they know fuck all about.
    thamighty213AlBQuirkyTorval
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

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    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    actually it does matter outside vet trial content.  Now you can get the gear by doing normal trials but you cant get the monster helms by doing normal dlc dungeons. 

    its obvious they changed the dungeons in 2017 to be more like the raids (trials) in a bid to get more people raiding but it failed miserably because ALL players don't really like heavy mechanics. That's why animation cancelling is such an important mechanic in the game since it minimizes these mechanics. A true hypocrite system. 

    so you need the animation cancelling for a number of the dungeons since 2017  with the mechanic heavy dungeons but  you also get rocked in pvp by those whose mastered this and its not even close.  

    so except for quests pretty much every facet of the game is tied to this mechanic and i wouldnt mind if it was a strong mechanic but its become clear to me that this mechanic can be easily overcome with simple programmable macro input devices.  You have guys on forums talking about literally milliseconds and know every detail of it which knowledge they obviously got not with practice but with timing scripts. 

    so without the animation cancelling what would content in eso look like? What would pvp look like. Its like they are jabbing themselves in their own heart to keep it going when its an obvious failure. 
    Iselin
    We shall know them by their works
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,544
    This type of combat makes it EASY for developers to do lazy work.There is a hit box,yep we always have that,there is a distance to manage,yep always has been,well that is all action does,take already in place systems and add in some ridiculous looking somersaults.So to hit or to roll lmao,two choices,yep real exciting...zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    I can get way better combat staying away from action combat.Even within the idea of action combat,the developers are doing a piss poor lazy job,not even close to what i had playing UT99 which is the same typical twitch combat.

    The big huge difference is these games do NOT take into account various weapon choices,various types of weapon damage,surroundings,sounds,deception,learning a map,it is always the same thing,stand in the open and play whackamole with some enemy.
    Iselin

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • BlazerXBlazerX Member UncommonPosts: 71
    edited October 2019
    Iselin said:
    BlazerX said:

    Let me give you a explicit example of how retarded and broken this game is.
    Doing Maelstrom on Veteren and doing it Flawless meaning doing the whole thing without stopping and not dying once gives you the "Flawless Conquerer Title" <- now having this title truly tells anyone who have tried this dungeon that hey that guy really knows what he is doing as a player/class.

    Now the thing is, you don't have to pull 45k+ or even say 30k+ to be able to do this as long as you know WTF you are doing in this dungeon and get it down, meaning you know mechanics.

    Now.  Knowing mechanics doesn't really mean shit to a progression guild because all they care about in ESO progression guilds (if you have any fucking idea what your talking about) only cares about your DPS, because having high DPS allows you to kill the boss faster and not have to do all the mechanics.  That is the point, because doing mechanics takes longer and it literally sucks to be stuck in a dungeon for hours doing the same shit over and over again because someone made a small mistake and it wipes the raid.

    BUT the only way to parse higher in this game IS to do animation cancelling because this is the ONLY WAY to get higher dps reaching 45k+.  Understand?   No amount of optimizing your skills or CP points or "correcting rotation" is going to get you remotely near that DPS threshold.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND?  So animation cancelling at high end raiding IS A REQUIREMENT.

    Therefore it may be impressive that you have this "Flawless Conquerer" title, but it doesn't really matter jack shit to a progression guild if your still parsing below say 40K or even 45 to 50k in those "elite" progression guilds.

    And wait...wait for it.  Here is the catchall.  In order for you to even remotely consider doing the end content in ESO, you HAVE TO BE IN A PROGRESSION GUILD!  TADA!  How fucking retarded and ouroborous shit is that?  Fucking ZOS doesn't even begin to know shit or they do and have no fucking clue how to fix it.

    From reading your replies thus far, it gives me the very strong impression that you have never really done high-end content in ESO.
    At least you've played the game and know enough to know that the one and only place in the game where animation cancelling is a requirement is in high end progression guild hardmode trial runs and why they require it: it's not even that it's required to complete the highest difficulty raid content - it can be done without it easily enough - it's that it's required to do it fast enough to get you on the leaderboard and THAT is what progression guilds are all about and that is why they require 45-50k DPS to raid with them.

    It's not required anywhere else unlike what people who have never played the game or played for 2 weeks think. And that's the majority of the animation cancelling sucks posts in this forum. Neither vMA nor vet dungeon runs require it since that's all about knowing the instance's mechanics.

    From my experience it's middling players who are still mostly noobs - those in the CP 300 - 500 range - who start all the pissing matches in PUG vet dungeon runs about not enough DPS when they're actually fucking it up because they have no clue how to complete the dungeon properly.

    I've even seen people rush in and kill the 3 adds for the shepherd boss in vet FG2, which increases the boss' health and damage mitigation by a fuckton leading to a very, very long fight and then bitch about low DPS lol. If you do it properly and kite the adds away from the boss without killing them while everyone else focuses the boss the fight is over in a minute with even shit DPS. 

    And that's how the urban legend that everything in ESO requires animation cancelling gets started: dumb people saying dumb shit about things they know fuck all about.

    Dude just stop.

    You have obviously not raided with a progression guild or did any end game content or you would know that its not because they want to get on a fucking leader board that you are required to have higher DPS which implies you have animation cancelling mastered.

    NO, it is because they want to do the raid QUICKLY enough so that some or most of the mechanic can be avoided so that someone doesn't screw up and wipe the raid and the fact that they want the raid to finish as QUICKLY as possible.

    But you are right.  Not really "required" anywhere else except in end game raiding: vHof, vAS(+1/+2), vCR(+1/+2/+3) and the latest one where you get the false god gear from.   Maybe even vMol, although I really don't think you need to pull too high a dps for that one <- vMol is just mechanics heavy on 2nd boss.  But most GUILD raids are STILL requiring people to have at least 40K+ dps and I'm not talking about random "PUGS" where you're random 300-500 noob starts pissing contests.

    But it is from these dungeons that all the best gear in the game drop AFTER defeating the end bosses and in order for you to do that YOU NEED a PROGRESSION GUILD or you are screwed.  No fucking PUG is going to down bosses in those dungeons, especially not in hard mode.
    Iselin
  • BlazerXBlazerX Member UncommonPosts: 71
    Rungar said:
    lol and you prove the point.  Why do we need to buy these fucking extra devices just to play a game that is supposed to be programmed by devs to allow us to play how we want (which is also a continuing LIE from ZOS).
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    my point is that i'm not against skillful play but i am against easily abused technology that emulates skillful play.  All should be but are not which tells how widespread it is. These devices are very cheap. 

     
    We shall know them by their works
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,544
    edited October 2019
    The term ...SKILL is often used in a very loose way.
    Skill involves a lot more than simply  clicking a direction key and pressing a mouse button.
    AlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • azonic69azonic69 Member UncommonPosts: 95
    Tiller said:
    I thought it sucked when I first tried it; not gonna lie. I went back a year later and got into the game a bit more and found that there are some tactics to fights if you play it that way, not sure whether by design or accident but I've had some intense and fun battles. It's not always pool noodle combat action if you really plan you attacks. If you want clicker heroes spam action you can certainly play it that way, though it won't be fun.

    If you wanna talk about terrible combat mechanics try the ground game in STO, man that is a shit show, It's got attacks that won't fire when hit, getting stuck on objects while moving, sometimes attacks go through walls, other times not, animation canceling all over the place, yet I still play it lol.
    So because something worst exist in STO, it makes it OK in ESO?
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,098
    Speed runs in MMORPG are pretty sad to me period.  2019 20 years after MMORPG started and we still have static content.  
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,634
    I'm just too clumsy to be competitive with ESO combat. Nothing against ESO at all. I just have to play it as a casual.
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  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    edited October 2019
    NorseGod said:
    I'm just too clumsy to be competitive with ESO combat. Nothing against ESO at all. I just have to play it as a casual.






     
    i dont think your alone there.
    We shall know them by their works
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,084
    Somebody explain what is animation canceling? 
    AlBQuirky

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  • Temp0Temp0 Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Speed runs in MMORPG are pretty sad to me period.  2019 20 years after MMORPG started and we still have static content.  
    Content being static isn't that important to speed runs existing or not. Take a look at competitive rifts in diablo 3 (or even rifts in diablo 3 in general). These are randomly generated layouts, with random mob populations with random elite affixes and the only way these are played is speed running (which is by design). Speed running is more a product of the design of game play and content than it is content being static or not. Certainly, there are ways that dynamic content can improve on the situation with speed runs but there are also ways to improve the situation with more static content. 
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,084
    Rungar said:
    Well my theory is, and the reason why eso isnt as popular as it could be is that most mmo players dont actually want action combat. They might want some, like the ability to block when you want or dodge out of the way, but i think it ends pretty much there. 

    few will play tanks in eso because you often cant see the telegraphs and if you miss a block you die even with a ton of hp and max armor in any new content vet mode. Its action for sure but is it any good? I would say no. 

    same thing with dps. You cant see what your doing and theres no committing to anything. Just a whirlwind of abilities hammering out as many timed button presses as possible. Again not very compelling for alot of people. 

    healers another problem where many things kill you in one hit if you don't block or dodge  so that doesnt really work well either. 

    does it require alot more twitchie skill, sure,  is it better.....not so sure.  I actually think it gives players some weird form of ADD where if they arent clicking like  a madman they lose their minds. 
    Also for me the game allow fewer skills in combat than Guild Wars 2.  There really isn't any unique class skill mechanics like GW2 has. A Engineer in GW2 and a Revenant both have 5 weapon skills and 5 Utility skills yet each class has its own unique class mechanics, Legend system for Revenant and Toolbelt for Engineers.

    I dont see that in ESO. 

    Also Elder Scrolls is more a free roam RPG in which you can just go out and play. ESO has level grinds originally. Levels play a role in some gameplay features now still effected by levels like pvp.

    That also brings me to another thing. Pvp is super boring outside the large scale map whatever it's called. The small scale pvp is very boring like GW2 small scale pvp. WoW is much better in this area. 

    The game world also lacks Dynamic events that bring players together. Closes thing to this is the grind spots for exp. Rest of the game is boring quest grind.  The world just isn't interesting to stick around in. 

    image

  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
     in eso the classes are not fixed. You are free to mix and match not only all the skill lines but armor sets as well which is far superior to gw2 ( imo, i played both), and despite its flaws i dont think anyone has matched eso large scale keep battles. Certainly not wow. 

    so i cant agree on those points having played all three of the games you mentioned. 
    We shall know them by their works
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,764
    ESO's combat is by the far the worst combat system I have ever tried in a MMO
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  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    edited October 2019
    Somebody explain what is animation canceling? 
    animation cancelling is the only playstyle supported by zos for maximum dps. What it does is lets you fire off a (free) light attack and then cancel the animation of that light attack by pressing a skill just after. Skills themselves can also have their animations cancelled by  using the barswap, bash, block, roll dodge.  This forms the core of a rotation of skills with a light attack inbetween and longer animation skills go before the barswap to cut those off. 

    skills in eso have longer animations than the global timer so the method of enhanced dps is to cut short all the animations to maximize dps. 

    players have something called training dummies where you have to practice to get the rhythm of it down ( i feel people just cheat this part with macro devices, because people are lazy and lie and know way too much about the timings)  where supposedly you gain muscle memory and can do this without really thinking about it. 

    its pretty hard on the hands if your older and also not all skills work with it so your very limited in how to set up your character to make it work. 

    so eso is a game of mechanics but animation cancelling allows you to minimize and skip many of these mechanics which is why it so prized as the main form of dps. In the end your main skill is the light attack which is also the free skill which is complete opposite of the " resources determine everything" model the developers intended.  

    it doesnt make any sense to me but thats how it is. 
    AlBQuirky
    We shall know them by their works
  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Member UncommonPosts: 1,484
    The elder scrolls series never had good combat.
    RungarAlBQuirky
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,092
    What killed this game for me was that horrible auction house system. The combat was bad but western mmos pretty much all have bad combat. 
  • GrintchGrintch Member UncommonPosts: 120
    Lack of an auction house is more of a problem for me.
    Torval
  • RungarRungar Member UncommonPosts: 67
    Grintch said:
    Lack of an auction house is more of a problem for me.


    i dont like that system much either but i usually play around it. You dont really need it in eso when you can go get everything yourself.
    We shall know them by their works
  • tordurbartordurbar Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Grintch said:
    Lack of an auction house is more of a problem for me.
    Agree. 

    I do not mind ESO combat even though I could never the cancelled animation trick. As a matter of fact I like ESO combat much better than Aion, Tera and Guild Wars 2. 

    But the reason that I stay with ESO is threefold: solo player support, exploration and crafting.

    In ESO solo players have mini-dungeons (delves) on every map. While they are easier when grouping almost all of them can be completed by a solo player (there are group delves as well - which cannot). 

    I have played over 20 MMO games and NONE of them match the exploration of ESO. There are loot chests, crafting resources and surprises EVERYWHERE. Exploring is fun in ESO, and, unlike GW2, a solo player can do almost all of it.

    My first MMO was WOW and my second Final Fantasy. Talk about crafting opposites. WOW crafting is a joke. FF crafting is a job. ESO is a happy medium. There are crafting resources everywhere and you can build SO many items and improve them with glyphs.  FF has more options but in ESO you do not have to make crafting your full time job.

    TorvalAlBQuirky
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